Does John Powell kick John Williams's ass?

[publicist 4,643]

It gets worse if you realize that Tintin isn't even a score that requires any deep emotional writing

Which 'deep emotional writing' TINTIN got? And please don't tell me manipulating one of the themes in sombre tones for one cue accounts for that. It's like awarding your local bakery a medal every time for getting another one of those stupendous breads ready.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,267]

You must have misread. Tintin does not contain any deep emotional music. It's mostly comedy and action writing, with a hint of mystery.

[publicist 4,643]

I still don't see how Williams' mastery of neo-romantic styles with a heavy dose of Prokoviev translates into the cluelessness of other current composer.

It's clear that David Arnold isn't capable (and willing) to write complex fugues, but Powell certainly has a lot of technical skill and his approach isn't any more valid or invalid than Williams' take.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,267]

When I listen to Powell, I hear film music. Good film music, but still film music. John Williams transcends that. Even when he's writing specifically for film.

[Sandor 799]

... but Powell certainly has a lot of technical skill and his approach isn't any more valid or invalid than Williams' take.

I prefer Williams' take. In fact; Williams approach - and that of Goldsmith, Steiner or Herrman - is the reason I'm fascinated by film music in the first place. The things Powell does merely echoes the work and approach of the true symphonic writers.

[Neimoidian 14]

For me, Powell's music is way too often like Williams' busy action cue, but played 2 times faster and with some additional percussive stuff added. It consists of some trully interesting moments, which, unfortunatelly, are lost in frenetic and loud underscore. It goes from one thing to another within a matter of seconds and it doesn't let all those things develop nor allow listener to focus on them. It's basically a music for ADHD generation. That's way I prefer Tintin over HTTYD.

Better poll IMO would be: Ratatouille vs Tintin. In that case I'd say Giacchino is the winner.

[publicist 4,643]

Better poll IMO would be: Ratatouille vs Tintin. In that case I'd say Giacchino is the winner.

RATATAOUILLE apes Williams at every corner (DINNER RUSH!!!!), so i don't see what this poll would prove beyond the fact that most here like their stuff similar to stuff thy already like.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,267]

Ok.

But if both were too write a 30 minute concerto, who would you think would be the winner?

[publicist 4,643]

I prefer Williams' take. In fact; Williams approach - and that of Goldsmith, Steiner or Herrman - is the reason I'm fascinated by film music in the first place. The things Powell does merely echoes the work and approach of the true symphonic writers.

This is all good and well, but to elevate every TINTIN coming along the way to a gourmet meal while Powell is the fast food doesn't cut it. The Williams isn't up to par with his earlier achievements, either. We ar enot exactly talking TEMPLE OF DOOM vs. DRAGON, where i happily would agree with this argument.

[Sandor 799]

I really don't get this whole 'Tintin is John Williams doing what he has done before'. When I first heard it, I was surprised by the totally fresh elements Williams incorporated into the score: the jazzy opening, the piano parts in Snowy's Theme, the usage of accordian, and such. Sure the action material is typically Williams, but even that sounds so energetic and modernistic at times that it never gave me the impression Williams was just pushing the repeat button. When I heard HTTYD I literally heard nothing original. Certainly nothing on the level of the piano in Snowy's Theme.

[Neimoidian 14]

Better poll IMO would be: Ratatouille vs Tintin. In that case I'd say Giacchino is the winner.

RATATAOUILLE apes Williams at every corner (DINNER RUSH!!!!)

I would't go that far saying that, Yet, I believe it has more sense to compare and discuss two scores that are relatively similar in many apects. Otherwise it's apples vs. oranges all over again.

[publicist 4,643]

Ok.

But if both were too write a 30 minute concerto, who would you think would be the winner?

If people here are to vote, i know the answer. If the usual classic snobs did, i guess they would find both lacking (i'm not big on Giacchino, i must say; technically proficient for sure, but somehow too often sounds like a film music robot).

[Sandor 799]

I prefer Williams' take. In fact; Williams approach - and that of Goldsmith, Steiner or Herrman - is the reason I'm fascinated by film music in the first place. The things Powell does merely echoes the work and approach of the true symphonic writers.

This is all good and well, but to elevate every TINTIN coming along the way to a gourmet meal while Powell is the fast food doesn't cut it. The Williams isn't up to par with his earlier achievements, either. We ar enot exactly talking TEMPLE OF DOOM vs. DRAGON, where i happily would agree with this argument.

Williams' complex orchestral writing capabilities have not changed since TOD. For that reason Tintin is a much more profound score. Williams is just simply a better composer. Sorry. He writes the kind of scores I prefer over the modernistic stuff Powell writes.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,267]

It sounds like fanboy twaddle, but even a Williams long past his prime (which he is) is still able to write music which just feels a cut above what the younger generation is doing.

But certainly occasional scores by those composers are more fun to listen to. (I prefer to listen to X-Men The Last Stand rather then WOTW)

[publicist 4,643]

I really don't get this whole 'Tintin is John Williams doing what he has done before'. When I first heard it, I was surprised by the totally fresh elements Williams incorporated into the score: the jazzy opening, the piano parts in Snowy's Theme, the usage of accordian, and such. Sure the action material is typically Williams, but even that sounds so energetic and modernistic at times that it never gave me the impression Williams was just pushing the repeat button. When I heard HTTYD I literally heard nothing original. Certainly nothing on the level of the piano in Snowy's Theme.

Come on. Apart form the running piano in SNOWY, which of course is Williams having fun (if only the underscoire would live up to that!), the french savoir vivre came out exactly as anyone could have guessed: it's some window dressing, the rest is standard stuff...charming, yes, but not any more original than the DRAGON score.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,267]

I really don't get this whole 'Tintin is John Williams doing what he has done before'. When I first heard it, I was surprised by the totally fresh elements Williams incorporated into the score: the jazzy opening, the piano parts in Snowy's Theme, the usage of accordian, and such.

How many scores did JW write in his career? Naturally if you have such a large body of work, anything you write is going to sound a bit similar to something you have done before.

It's also the way the human brain makes connections. In 2001 when listening to Harry Potter all people could hear was Hook and Home Alone, but after a while the music gets it's own identity, and the stylistic similarities to earlier works start to become less apparent.

[Sandor 799]

Melodically, Hans Zimmer can be very strong. But he's just scratching the surface of how insanely good film music can be. The medium allows the great tradition of "classical" music to continue. Not all film music has to be the same or written the same way. But to compare Powell to Williams is almost laughable.

[publicist 4,643]

Williams' complex orchestral writing capabilities have not changed since TOD. For that reason Tintin is a much more profound score. Williams is just simply a better composer.

Nobody doubts that. If he only had written a score as great as TOD for TINTIN...And that you prefer Williams goes without saying. Doesn't mean that you don't have any critical distance to his or other works.

[Sandor 799]

I really don't get this whole 'Tintin is John Williams doing what he has done before'. When I first heard it, I was surprised by the totally fresh elements Williams incorporated into the score: the jazzy opening, the piano parts in Snowy's Theme, the usage of accordian, and such.

How many scores did JW write in his career? Naturally if you have such a large body of work, anything you write is going to sound a bit similar to something you have done before.

It's also the way the human brain makes connections. In 2001 when listening to Harry Potter all people could hear was Hook and Home Alone, but after a while the music gets it's own identity, and the stylistic similarities to earlier works start to become less apparent.

Exactly. At first I thought Superman was too close to Star Wars. Now it's a world of its own to me.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,267]

but not any more original than the DRAGON score.

In what way is Dragon original? It's a fine, fun score. But it's basically the big adventure romp we have heard from composers before. Williams had done them, Goldsmith did a whole line of them, so did Silvestri etc...

[publicist 4,643]

but not any more original than the DRAGON score.

In what way is Dragon original? It's a fine, fun score. But it's basically the big adventure romp we have heard from composers before. Williams had done them, Goldsmith did a whole line of them, so did Silvestri etc...

That's the point isn't it? A traditional Williams score maybe somewhat more refined, both are rather generic to my ears.

And of course i don't expect 80-year-old Williams to reinvent the wheel. What i'm against is to heap a score as TINTIN on pedestals it doesn't deserve. It's not THAT good only because it's JW and has more elaborate woodwind lines.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,267]

Exactly. At first I thought Superman was too close to Star Wars. Now it's a world of its own to me.

When I first heard the Superman theme I thought re-used the B- theme from the Star Wars main titles for the B-theme for the Superman main titles.

oh wait I still do....

That's the point isn't it? A traditional Williams score maybe somewhat more refined, both are rather generic to my ears.

The point is you are criticizing Williams for not being original with Tintin and you are using how To Train A Dragon as an example?????

It's not THAT good only because it's JW and has more elaborate woodwind lines.

Actually it is, because JW makes those woodwind lines seem to effortless.

[publicist 4,643]

The point is you are criticizing Williams for not being original with Tintin and you are using how To Train A Dragon as an example?????

The point is that Powell gets a bad rep for DRAGON while Williams is patted on the back for TINTIN. It doesn't make me angry or so, it's just irritating and delusional (to me) that so often a perfectly well-conceived (and received) score (composer) must be demolished to elevate a fairly standard work to sky-high levels. OK, so Williams is a better orchestral writer, Powell is more modern in his apporach, so what?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,267]

Were did Dragon get a bad rep? It was universally praised and got an Oscar nom...

[Sandor 799]

OK, so Williams is a better orchestral writer, Powell is more modern in his apporach, so what?

So what? That's the fundamental difference. Williams brings a level of intelligence and sophistication to his work (including Tintin) that Powell - no matter how great his melodies in HTTYD may sound - could never reach.

[publicist 4,643]

Were did Dragon get a bad rep? It was universally praised and got an Oscar nom...

Wait...at this ver moment like..here?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,267]

Powell for Dragon, or Giachino for Star Trek or David Arnold for a score like ID4 sounds like they are going all out, to the edge of their personal capabilities, pouring everything they know into it.

Even for a busy, complex score like Temple Of Doom, I never get the idea that Williams is stretching the limits of his ability.

Wait...at this ver moment like..here?

Oh I think we all like the score. You are being overly dramatic (again)

As for modern film composers who reach a level of complexity as high as Williams, i dunno. Goldenthal probably, though he doesn't do much for film anymore.

[publicist 4,643]

OK, so Williams is a better orchestral writer, Powell is more modern in his apporach, so what?

So what? That's the fundamental difference. Williams brings a level of intelligence and sophistication to his work (including Tintin) that Powell - no matter how great his melodies in HTTYD may sound - could never reach.

Roald, i have made you suffer enough for today and will have a great sunday forest walk now. So relax and just put down all this heavy INTELLIGENCE and SOPHISTICATION artillery.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,267]

The funny thing about this discussion is, if you were to ask Powell of Giachinchin if they thought they were better then John Williams, or if one of their specific scores was better then would answer no.

[Sandor 799]

OK, so Williams is a better orchestral writer, Powell is more modern in his apporach, so what?

So what? That's the fundamental difference. Williams brings a level of intelligence and sophistication to his work (including Tintin) that Powell - no matter how great his melodies in HTTYD may sound - could never reach.

Roald, i have made you suffer enough for today and will have a great sunday forest walk now. So relax and just put down all this heavy INTELLIGENCE and SOPHISTICATION artillery.

Hey thanks!

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Tintin is a run-of-the-mill score, it retreads everything Williams has done before. He brings nothing new to the table.

As opposed to HYTAD? Which is totally original in every respect? What does it do that has not been done in either the animation or fantasy genre Koray?

Tintin does not break new ground for JW (why would someone expect a 79 year old composer to change his style), but it does show, in a very painful way that the current crop of composers, including the good ones like Giachino, Arnold, Powell etc.... don't write orchestral music with the same depth, poise and complexity that Williams does even at his advanced age.

It gets worse if you realize that Tintin isn't even a score that requires any deep emotional writing

Powell isn't 100% original, he even retreads himself more often than other composers when it comes to animation writing (see Mars Needs Moms). He's become the go-to, temp track composer for modern day animation. But How To Train Your Dragon is of a whole other level. It's a breathtaking score that does take time to develop themes, and it sounds like effort was put into it. You say Williams doing something effortlessly is a good thing, I say it sounds like he was bored.

Well, HTTYD, while being a great score, isn't the most original thing ever. Its approach is basically the same as any other MV score (with a few new ideas), it's just executed so skillfully that it is much more enjoyable than the average MV score. Tintin, on the other hand, does bring several new ideas to the table. "Adventures of Tintin" is absolutely not a retread of "Catch Me If You Can," the similarities are superficial at best. The two are completely different pieces in terms of instrumentation, mood, intensity, and structure. The jerky stop-and-go motion of "The Adventure Continues" is unlike anything I've heard Williams write. And of course the French-sounding music of "Milanese NIghtingale" is new. I'm not very familiar with the score yet so those are the only three examples I can remember off the top of my head, but I remember thinking the entire score was pretty fresh while listening to it.

And the tools that Williams uses to execute these creative ideas are much more developed than Powell's - it's the difference between decades of extra experience, but also being trained classically and being trained by a rock and roll music producer (that's not a knock against Zimmer or Powell, it's just the truth).

HTTYD is certainly better than some of JW's scores, but not Tintin.

Powell wasn't trained by a a rock and roll producer. Like most people that have worked with Zimmer, they didn't actually start their composing careers with Zimmer.

I really don't get this whole 'Tintin is John Williams doing what he has done before'. When I first heard it, I was surprised by the totally fresh elements Williams incorporated into the score: the jazzy opening, the piano parts in Snowy's Theme, the usage of accordian, and such.

How many scores did JW write in his career? Naturally if you have such a large body of work, anything you write is going to sound a bit similar to something you have done before.

It's also the way the human brain makes connections. In 2001 when listening to Harry Potter all people could hear was Hook and Home Alone, but after a while the music gets it's own identity, and the stylistic similarities to earlier works start to become less apparent.

Sorcerer's Stone still sounds like Home Alone to me. So do a lot of the action cues in Tintin. If you haven't heard War Horse yet, wait until you do. It blows anything Williams has done over the past 6 years out of the water. It sounds original, it sounds like he cared about the music. That's what I don't hear in Tintin.

The funny thing about this discussion is, if you were to ask Powell of Giachinchin if they thought they were better then John Williams, or if one of their specific scores was better then would answer no.

Ask any composer that question and they'll say no.

[Brónach 1,303]

I don't understand how anyone could listen to Tintin and say it sounds like JW was bored.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,267]

Well, they must be on to something, right?

[Brónach 1,303]

On to what?

On to useless speculation?

Because that's the only thing there with the bored/not bored JW.

I must be one of the people here that love HTTYD the most. I just think TSOTU is a better score, and it's not just because it's got "Williams" stamped on it.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,267]

Koray is just too much in denial!

[Incanus 5,736]

I am so glad this poll proves unequivocally that John Williams kicks John Powell's ass. Powell didn't really have a chance.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,267]

Poor Koray...

[Muad'Dib 1,802]

I am so glad this poll proves unequivocally that John Williams kicks John Powell's ass. Powell didn't really have a chance.

To be honest, I didn't vote. I don't think it's a fair comparison, like I said before. The two are fantastic composers, but in totally different leagues.

And I'd love to see Powell do concert works some day.

[Brónach 1,303]

Me too, honestly.

[Incanus 5,736]

I wasn't very serious with my above statement. I think this thread's inflammatory title provides ample room for discussion but in the end I do enjoy both Williams and Powell scores. On different levels of course but still.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Similar to what indy4 said earlier, both composers have done better scores than each other. In this particular case though, I vastly prefer How To Train Your Dragon over Tintin.

[nightscape94 965]

There's nothing wrong with being good, not great. Unless Peter Shaffer humiliates you, that is.

[gkgyver 1,646]

And of course i don't expect 80-year-old Williams to reinvent the wheel. What i'm against is to heap a score as TINTIN on pedestals it doesn't deserve. It's not THAT good only because it's JW and has more elaborate woodwind lines.

Yes it is. It may not stand out in Williams' entire opus, but it stands out in his post-2000 work, and most definitely when compared to ALL the others.

When I listen to Powell, I hear film music. Good film music, but still film music. John Williams transcends that. Even when he's writing specifically for film.

And there, the discussion should have ended.

[publicist 4,643]

And of course i don't expect 80-year-old Williams to reinvent the wheel. What i'm against is to heap a score as TINTIN on pedestals it doesn't deserve. It's not THAT good only because it's JW and has more elaborate woodwind lines.

Yes it is. It may not stand out in Williams' entire opus, but it stands out in his post-2000 work, and most definitely when compared to ALL the others.

When I listen to Powell, I hear film music. Good film music, but still film music. John Williams transcends that. Even when he's writing specifically for film.

And there, the discussion should have ended.

Delusions. Aaaah. If i follow this through, there may be some real fun fanboy rage going on by tomorrow. But alas, i don't have enough time.

[Incanus 5,736]

Oh good. Thank you.

[Faleel 5,458]

Powells scores to Chicken Run, the Kung Fu Panda's and HTTYD are superior to Tintin IMVVVVVVHO

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Add Happy Feet and Horton Hears A Who.

[Faleel 5,458]

I havent heard those, so I cannot.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,267]

Add Happy Feet and Horton Hears A Who.

Koray. I've been meaning to ask you.

WHAT ARE YOU DOING HERE?

You are obviously not a fan of John Williams.

[Brónach 1,303]

I don't mind if someone prefers Chicken Run or HTTYD to Tintin as they are really beautiful scores, very easy on the ears and very direct, emotionally.

On the other hand Tintin basically avoids being emotional and goes for the fun in the orchestrations and use of melodies. I find it more difficult to get tired of a score like this than the ones above. Actually I avoid many times listening to the above scores in fear that their sheer power might run out, which has happened to me before, but doesn't happen to me with something like Tintin.

Another thing that happens to a score like Tintin is that, like a lot of JW's usual output, it isn't easy, it doesn't work every time, it needs the listener in a certain mood to be able to listen to it and understand it, and get into it. JW's music for adventure films is kind of "harsh", it's not silk that works easily with any mood and with any film for that matter.

But if you let go away your preconcepceptions and current listening "needs", and relax your mood, sometimes you get into the music and it's like you suddenly understand JW behind the music. They said music is structured and works like an actual languaje. It might be a bit of an abstract languaje if you forget about cultural preconceptions (aka "I relate this instrumentation to this part of the world" for example), but I think they're not too far off when they say that.