Orchestrations and sound

[Guest]

I think Williams is back for good!!!!(ok ok he was never away but let me explain)

The second Harry Potter had some jaw drooping compositions and the orchestrations were fantastic. Very close to the great late Herbert van Spencer who orchestrated most of Williams' legendary soundtracks.

I don't know about you guys but I felt that the familiar Williams sound changed drastically when Mr Spencer died.

Jurassic Park was I think the first without van Spencer and it showed. Don't get me wrong it was great but different.

And since then the sound went through many changes but all of them very positive, i.e. Sabrina, Seven Years in Tibet (Very Sakamoto-like sound there) Shindler's List, Stepmom and many great other post Spencer scores.

The only one that I felt suffered a bit was Episode I. I don't know whether Williams hasn't written for this kinda style for a while or whether the orchestrators let him down or what....but the orchestrations were way down compared to the standards of TESB SW and ROTJ. And the sound was way too big for me. I know that this is probably Shawn Murphy's style of sound engineering but the majestic sound comes from the orchestra and not from the reverberation. Something that was fixed on the Special edition CD.

And then Harry Potter was released. Williams is back composing great themes and compositions orchestrated fantastically. The sound again? A bit too reverbery resulting in losing definition of the cellos and D.basses.

AOTC was for me was the weakest SW score but the main theme is very beautiful. Again sound too reverbery but I felt the orchestrations were better than Episode I.

When I heard the second Harry Potter...well it was all there. The sound was fantastic, not too roomy but with great feel, the lower string section is crystal clear and the brass section is fantastic, the trumpets at the front but not perching and the horns big and filling and the trombones really cutting through. Orchestration wise what can I say? Just listen to 'The Spiders'

For me @ least this is the most familiar Williams sounding soundtrack

since Mr Spencer passed away

I bet there are more great scores on the way

[Miguel Andrade 1,264]

1. Williams orchestrates all his music. His orchestrators are basiclly proof readers. They are very limited, creativelly wise;

2. From the late 80's, Mr. Herbert W. Spencer was getting older and sicker. Even if he got maisn orchestrator credits, others were involved. Most of the times uncredited, others, like when was Alexander Courage filling in for part of the work, credited;

3. Mr. Spencer stopped working in 1990, if I remember well. He passed away in 1992.

Williams and Spencer talking about TESB score

[Marian Schedenig 8,211]

Philosopher's Stone has some of the best orchestrations (and use of themes) in Williams entire career. I don't think COS comes close - but that doesn't surprise me, since Williams didn't have that much time for it.

Marian - who thinks JP and TPM have great orchestrations, too.

[King Mark 3,631]

PS and CoS do sound like some of his 80's work orchestration wise,at least to me.

K.M.

[Marian Schedenig 8,211]

I'd say at least PS is several times as complex. Which might be the reason why I found the score disappointing at first, but it's also one of the reasons why I consider it one of JW's best now.

[Mattris 416]

While technological improvements over time have yeilded greater fidelity of sound, poor microphone placement and mixing have damaged the finished product, which could be SO much better.

I don't like the Shawn Murphy sound. I much prefer the sound of the old Star Wars trilogy to what I've heard so far in Episodes I and II. The sections of the orchestra (and individual instruments, for that matter) felt close and controlled in Episodes IV-VI. Ignoring the musical aspect, the different sound in the new SW films can be attributed to the microphone placement, mixing, and the studio they're recording it in.

In general: Microphones farther away from the instruments will yeild a "distant" sound. Mixing has to do with and volume levels and separation of the instuments (or voices) relative to each other. A bigger room will produce more reverb. Echo is most annoying in action film scores (i.e. Star Wars). Lots of quick, loud, notes run together in a big room. Just listen to the loud tracks in "Williams On Williams" - you'll see what I mean. You just don't record action scores in the Boston Symphony Hall. A small studio makes more sense for clarity purposes.

TPM and AOTC, unfortunately, have the problems described above. The trumpets are too quiet, and the orchestra sounds like a bunch of mush. Of the older JW scores, E.T. represents perfect recording engineering. TESB is also well done, although the percussion is mixed too quiet (except for the timpani). The brass, woodwind, and string balance are perfect in both. To bad a similar approach is not being implemented in the new Star Wars films - which need all the help they can get to make them feel more like the Star Wars we remember.

In case you can't tell, I want to be a sound engineer.

mattmane, who also thinks that COS sounds more like the old Williams sound, with Simon Rhodes as the recording engineer instead of Shawn Murphy

[Jango Fett 0]

I'd say at least PS is several times as complex. Which might be the reason why I found the score disappointing at first, but it's also one of the reasons why I consider it one of JW's best now.

Amen Marian, that's exactly the way I was thinking about it!

[Guest]

1. Williams orchestrates all his music. His orchestrators are basically proof readers. They are very limited, creatively wise;  

It can't be as simple as that,

I know that many orchestrators quote that 'sometimes orchestrating means taking the notes from the yellow paper to the white paper' but don't tell me you haven't heard huge differences between films such as Jurassic Park and lets say Indiana Jones or ROTJ or what ever action film was composed before Spencer.

The detail on the Spencer era was immense, something that has been missing for a while (up until The Harry Potter films )

Even Episode one was very simple compared to the other SW soundtracks.

There were some bits I couldn't believe how poor the orchestration was.

OK and let's say JW orchestrated absolutely 100% everything, so that must mean that Williams's orchestrational standards have dropped. That's very difficult to believe.

I think what happened is that Williams hs got involved more heavily than he usually does with the orchestrations from the Harry Potter films onwards. Maybe this is the reason why the detail has increased infinitely (Compared to JP or TPM)

As for the guy who wrote about Simon Rhodes,I think you are absolutely right.this must be one of the main reasons why TCOS sounds so familiar!!

[Miguel Andrade 1,264]

I'm sorry I'm unable to do a direct quote, but I think it was Bernard Herrmann who said that music would go in a direction of more ismplicity in te future. I agree, to some degree with that.

And I don't agree with the idea that the orchestrations quality has dropped. They are less complicaters, that's one thing. I like them more complicated, that's fine. But simple does not mean bad.

I love Jurassic Park and the simplicity on it. Sometimes, to many notes, are just too much, at least for me.

And I said it before, and will say it again: all the info I have on orchestrators and Williams points to the direction I stated above.

[Guest]

Johnner, that's YOUR opinion that his 'orchestration qualities have dropped'. I think Williams still sounds like Williams and is more complicated than ever. The orchestrations of the new Star Wars movies and HP movies are at more complicated than what is going on in Jurassic Park. What movies are you talking about when you say his stuff 'up until HP' has had worse orchestrations? You do have to make different orchestrations for different movies to get different sounds, you know.. you can't orchestrate (=compose) in Harry Potter style for Angelas Ashes or Schindler's List. Thankfully Williams can compose in a lot of different styles (but still sound like Williams).

[Guest]

Johnner, that's YOUR opinion that his 'orchestration qualities have dropped'.

I agree it's all subjective to what people like or dislike.

I think Williams still sounds like Williams and is more complicated than ever.

Oh yes!!

The orchestrations of the new Star Wars movies and HP movies are at more complicated than what is going on in Jurassic Park. What movies are you talking about when you say his stuff 'up until HP' has had worse orchestrations?

Worse? Not by any means. But I felt some of the orchestrations were poor. And I am talking specifically (sorry I didn't make my self clear) about action movies.

I feel the films had poorer orchestration were (I love them though don't get me wrong)JP(Exclude the huge action track) JP2 (Exclude 'The Hunt')but the one that gave me the strongest impression was TPM. When I am talking 'complicated' I don't necessarily mean ten billion notes in one bar. I mean complicated but with quality. To give you an idea I will point out a couple of queues that spring to mind I loved from TPM: First one is on the special edition CD. Disc 1Track 5 from 0.38 to about 1.40( The music was used on AOTC as well when the Namodian starship made an attempt to escape and crashed spectacularly on the ground). The other one that griped me was Disc2 track 28.

Again don't get me wrong.

I love the scores of both TPM and AOTC and I am listening them very often but you can't compare The Asteroid Field with Zen the Assasin(both composition and orchestration wise). Or 'The Battle rages on' from TPM with The Battle in the snow. Or even the intire battle music of TPM with the battle music from either TESB or ROTJ. The compositional and orchestrational quality is just not near enough.

Especially on TESB the huge scene on Hoth just passes you by. The writing there is unbelievable!!

Saying all that you have no idea how I felt when I heard Harry Potter. In both films the music is stunning!! Another thing to consider as well is that maybe Willams took the Producer's chair on the second Harry Potter in the control room to make sure the sound is great.And it is!!!

You do have to make different orchestrations for different movies to get different sounds, you know.. you can't orchestrate (=compose) in Harry Potter style for Angelas Ashes or Schindler's List. Thankfully Williams can compose in a lot of different styles (but still sound like Williams

I totally agree with you.But the compositional and orchestrational quality of let's say, Superman, Dracula, TESB, Idiana Jones (any) were different to eachother but equally great. Amasing themes and unbelievable orchestrations!!

The truth is that I loved all the scores he wrote in the 90s ! And I love what he has done with films like Seven Years in Tibet, and Angela's Ashes, Sabrina, Stepmom and so on.I couldn't imagine them any other way.

I am thrilled with HP films!!! Can't wait to hear some more new stuff!!

[Guest]

Of the older JW scores, E.T. represents perfect recording engineering.

A little off-topic, but I am obsessed by visiting "top-audio" exhibitions and 3 years ago I took the '97 release of "E.T." and Schindler's List soundtracks with me to one and listened to both on Vadia CD player, Krell amplifiers and Dynaudio speakers a pair of worth of a Mercedes limousine, and the exhibitor said the "E.T." sounds exemplarily. Were you talking about this particular '97 release, mattmane?

One of the worst sounds, on the other hand, blesses my copy of The Lost World. Something must have happened during recording...

Roman.-)

[Yoda Longbottom 0]

Scatterbrain Roman forgot to log in again obviously...? The Ghost above is me.

Roman.-)

[Marian Schedenig 8,211]

Simon Rhodes - yes! Murphy has done some great stuff in the past (like Hook and Summon the Heroes), but lately he sounds nothing but awful (A.I. being the most extreme example, as I've often said before). He sounds way too unnaturally dry (no reverb at all), but at the same time "cloudy" as if recorded in a cavern (how he does this with absolutely no reverb puzzles me). Rhodes has a nice natural sound; I keep saying that orchestras should be recorded with concert hall sound, because that's what concert halls were built for. That means "healthy" reverb, but not too much so as not to lose much detail.

And JW's style has constantly changed over the years. From Star Wars to Superman, he introduced some atonality. This lead to Empire Strikes Back. ROTJ already sounds a bit like Last Crusade, which in turn has aspects of Hook. Hook leads to TPM and that to the Potter scores. I don't think his orchestrations have dropped in quality at all, quite on the contrary. During the late 80s and 90s, Williams has learned restraint. The older Star Wars scores, as great as they are, are very bombastic in all the big action sequences. That's fine, but it's also the reason why I, knowing them so well, don't play them very often anymore, I'm afraid. Not because I don't like them, but I find them overpowering most of the time. I'd say JW's later orchestrations are even more complex, just more balanced. Hook has awesome orchestrations. TPM has, as far as I'm concerned, many parts that beat everything prior to it in the Star Wars saga as far as orchestration complexity is concerned - stuff like the Naboo escape music, the use of rhythms and orchestration is unbelievable.

Marian - who thinks TPM does sound better than the Star Wars SE's, because the remastering on them sucks.

The Lion King (Hans Zimmer)

[Miguel Andrade 1,264]

Saying all that you have no idea how I felt when I heard Harry Potter. In both films the music is stunning!! Another thing to consider as well is that maybe Willams took the Producer's chair on the second Harry Potter in the control room to make sure the sound is great.And it is!!!  

Williams wasn't in the control room, he even wasn't in London during the recording sessions! He was back in LA writing "Catch Me..."

[Morn 8]

I don't know about you guys but I felt that the familiar Williams sound changed drastically when Mr Spencer died.

Jurassic Park was I think the first without van Spencer and it showed. Don't get me wrong it was great but different

Err, it changed before Spencer died, have you heard Empire of the Sun? And it wasn't as sudden of a change as you seem to suggest. But Empire of the Sun, Witches of Eastwic and Indy 3 definately show the roots of his 90's style.

The only one that I felt suffered a bit was Episode I. I don't know whether Williams hasn't written for this kinda style for a while or whether the orchestrators let him down or what....but the orchestrations were way down compared to the standards of TESB SW and ROTJ.

Technically they weren't. If you mean you just didn't like them...

AOTC was for me was the weakest SW score but the main theme is very beautiful. Again sound too reverbery but I felt the orchestrations were better than Episode I.

Err, how? I think they were a little less thick.

Philosopher's Stone has some of the best orchestrations (and use of themes) in Williams entire career. I don't think COS comes close - but that doesn't surprise me, since Williams didn't have that much time for it.

Well said. It's amazing.

I'm sorry I'm unable to do a direct quote, but I think it was Bernard Herrmann who said that music would go in a direction of more ismplicity in te future. I agree, to some degree with that.

Well when something goes up it must come down.

I love the scores of both TPM and AOTC and I am listening them very often but you can't compare The Asteroid Field with Zen the Assasin(both composition and orchestration wise).

Well Zen is showing a greater interest in rhythm perhaps at the cost of other things.

[Marian Schedenig 8,211]

For the record, I still enjoy COS' orchestrations a lot. They're perhaps a bit thin in some parts, but basically there's nothing to complain about. They're just more straightforward than in PS. And straightforward might be the best way to describe JW's 70s/80s blockbuster orchestrations, too.

Marian - who thinks he also did non-straightforward orchestrations in those times, like CE3K.

[Guest]

Johnner wrote:  

Saying all that you have no idea how I felt when I heard Harry Potter. In both films the music is stunning!! Another thing to consider as well is that maybe Willams took the Producer's chair on the second Harry Potter in the control room to make sure the sound is great.And it is!!!  

 

Williams wasn't in the control room, he even wasn't in London during the recording sessions! He was back in LA writing "Catch Me..."

Sorry, I didn't know

I love that sound though

[Frosty 0]

What is the difference between good orchestrating and bad orchestrating?

How do you know what Herb Spencer whould have done different had he been around for Episodes I-III?

Williams controls every note. Even his concert works sound very much like Williams. The orchestrating for the Bassoon concerto is phenominal. You don't get that by having other people do the work.

I think that the turning point was with Schindler's List. Not diminshing Jurassic Park at all, but Williams became extremely subtle with Schindlers List and it has crossed into his other works as well.

Williams has had many orchestrators, including the late, great Arthur Morton who did all of Goldsmith's orchestrations. You would be hard pressed to find where Williams left off and Spencer and/or Morton began, or Conrad Pope, Alexander Courage, John Neufeld. they all work as orchestrators for Williams, but can you tell the difference?

No, because Williams controls every note.

Williams style has evolved considerably. If you take Star Wars, Williams had just come off of Jaws, disaster films and comedies. Nothing subtle there. Now you take take him 25+ years later, scoring all sorts of genres of pictures, something is going to change.

Even concert works have progressed. He has revised his Violin and Tuba concertos many times because he wasn't happy with the orchestration. Does Olympic Fafare and Theme have the same orchestrations as Summon the Heroes, the Olympic Spirit or Call of the Champions? Even if you compared them among themselves you can tell they were written by the same guy with drastically different effects.

Whatever opinions may be, I think Williams power as an orchestrator have increased staggeringly since the 70's, with and without Spencer's help. You can hear the influence Spencer had on Williams, but he took it and made it his own and has become a phenominal writer and orchestrator, since they are one and the same.

Frosty

[Guest]

Marian - who thinks TPM does sound better than the Star Wars SE's, because the remastering on them sucks.  

Well, I can not disagree more about the SE´s!

The classic Star Wars scores never sounded better :spiny: !

I wish every score had that high standards...

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

ROTJ sounds rather crappy, both the OST and ROTJ cues on the 4 CD anthology set sounded better.

Stefancos- :spiny:

[Guest]

ROTJ sounds rather crappy, both the OST and ROTJ cues on the 4 CD anthology set sounded better.

They were all remastered with the same technology, they all sound better than anywere else.

I think it´s just general "Jedi-phobia" what makes you think so... :roll:

[Marian Schedenig 8,211]

ROTJ sounds clearly better in the Anthology version than on the SE. The SE's of ANH and ESB sound as if they were recorded in the 50's. If that's because of poor remastering or because the master tapes were stored so badly I don't know.

Marian - who hopes they'll be able to do a better job for the eventual DVD-A's/SACD's/whatever's.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Marian, at this point i'm not at all sure if these formats will break though anytime soon.

Dennis Sands points made on this site really make sense:

As far as DVD-Audio or SACD, I have yet to understand what the market is. Kids are interested in lesser quality (i.e., mp3), not higher quality. Until the market is clearly defi ned, these formats are meaningless. They will continue to be a novelty at best, and will not have much future on any grand scale. Hope this answers your questions.

Best regards,

Dennis?

http://www.bryston.ca/newsletters/64_files...es/vol6is4.html

There just does not seem to be a lot of interest for these formats by the demographic that buys the largest amount of CD's, or downloads them.

Stefancos- who, at this time will not invest money in a SACD/DVD-A player

[Guest]

Willams has always been an outstanding orchestrator. I have been a fan of his music for about 22 years. I grew up with ET and TESB and heard in the process the great works he has written in the 70s and bought all off his albums since. I loved nearly everything he has written so far and I am really happy with the changes he has done in the last 10 years (From Shindler's List to Seven Years to Stepmom-love it- etc)

Again don't get me wrong and don't get upset about my comments because after all is my opinion and nothing more. Maybe the way I feel about his early SW scores is so strong because I grew up with them.

I know every melody and every note of these great scores and my anticipation to hear the new SW music was immense.

To sumup I was a great Williams fan 20 years ago and I am a great Williams fan now. I loved all of his 70s-80s and 90s works and I feel that -in my opinion-with the arrival of the Harry Potter scores the action music written by Williams is returning to the days of TESB, ET, Superman, Dracula etc.

I personally can't wait for new works!!

[Guest]

I forgot to write that the above is an answer to frosty

[Guest]

ROTJ sounds clearly better in the Anthology version than on the SE. The SE's of ANH and ESB sound as if they were recorded in the 50's. If that's because of poor remastering or because the master tapes were stored so badly I don't know.  

Must be your copies then, mine sound fine.

[Marian Schedenig 8,211]

Must be your copies then, because everyone I've asked so far agrees with me.

Marian - who bought the Anthology set for ROTJ's better sound quality and is happy he did.

[Guest]

Must be your copies then, because everyone I've asked so far agrees with me.

Hmm...if a million people are telling you that green is red, does it make green change color?

Green is green, trust me

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Do you even have the original CD, or the Anthology set?

I can hear details on both that are completely missing on the SE CD.

Stefancos- who still thinks it's a very good treatment of the score.

[Guest]

Do you even have the original CD, or the Anthology set?  

I can hear details on both that are completely missing on the SE CD.  

Yes of course

The only regular offical release missing in my collection is the "Return of the Jedi" Vinyl LP(and you could argue the "Empire" 2 Disc Vinyl set also).

But I´ve got all original releases on CD.

The only thing, which I found lacking soundwise was the No.1 "A new hope" disc on the anthology set.

It sounds muffled, I always prefered the old 2 CD Set before the SE soundtrack came out.

The ANH tracks on CD No.4 are fine though.

Everything else sounded better with every release

[Marian Schedenig 8,211]

"Muffled" is exactly how I would describe the ROTJ SE. The Anthology version sounds much clearer and more natural.

Marian - who likes green better than red.

Signs (James Newton Howard)

[Justin 2]

The Anthology has better sound. But still that doesn't bother me very much. I still love the SE.

Justin

[Rogue_Leader 2]

Certain people on this board are still doubting JW's composing strength lately.

I won't name names but I think we know who they are.

Wouldn't you agree Stefanacos?

[Frosty 0]

I might point out again that Williams also worked as an orchestrator for some of his older collegeues, like Dmitri Tiomkin to name one.

[Morn 8]

ROTJ sounds rather crappy, both the OST and ROTJ cues on the 4 CD anthology set sounded better.

Stefancos-  

Not really.... Maybe just a bit more tinny. Just bad EQ's.

ROTJ sounds clearly better in the Anthology version than on the SE. The SE's of ANH and ESB sound as if they were recorded in the 50's. If that's because of poor remastering or because the master tapes were stored so badly I don't know.

Maybe some classical recording in the 50's, film music isn't preserved as well. Jaws sounds like a 50's recording and ANH and TESB sound more like the best of the 60's. I've read that the quality is due to that recording studio having old technology.

[Marian Schedenig 8,211]

The expanded/remastered Jaws sounds really good, and the expanded CE3K sounds quite amazing...

[Guest]

"Muffled" is exactly how I would describe the ROTJ SE. The Anthology version sounds much clearer and more natural.  

Sorry, but can´t disagree more (again).

You could name it almost anything,"too brassy","too voluminous" or whatever, but certainly not "muffled"!

Seriously, is there a chance that we have two different pressings?

Maybe they got sold out and there was a second production and they got it wrong (or right) this time...

If I remember correctly, there were people who ended up with 2 first discs and no second disc, so something else could have gone wrong too(although I realise that packaging has nothing directly to do with the remastering process).

I like green better too, but only the greenish green .

[Marian Schedenig 8,211]

Seriously, is there a chance that we have two different pressings?

Maybe they got sold out and there was a second production and they got it wrong (or right) this time...

I wonder. If anything, I have the first pressing. But this would be the first time I heard about it. I saw many people complain about ROTJ's SE sound before I had the Anthology set, then picked it up because of that and agreed with what I had read. Perhaps the whole issue is just too subjective.

I like green better too, but only the greenish green .

It's not easy being green.

Marian -

The Final Conflict (Jerry Goldsmith)

[Luke Skywalker 1,796]

My ROJ SE can be fixxed a little with equalizer options, try it (if you havent already)

I think SW has strident sound sometimes because the it it really old. TO me (that i have not heard isolated) the score for the old movies of the 40-60 's - Ben Hur, Cleopatra.... sound too estrident that they all sound the same for me, and SW although better is similar to it (in sound not 'likeness'. It does not help that SW has a big amount of metal wind.... Well, don't blame me for my opinion on old scores, i have not have the oportunity to hear them on CD and surely they will sound better.

[Morn 8]

:? You're mad Luke!