I'm confused

[Uni 306]

WHOOOOOHOOOOOO!!!!!

Sorry. Had to get that out. That's not meant to express support for one "side" or the other; just releasing a little of the excitement this thread has engendered. Now this is drama!

Naturally, I had to get in on this (especially after Stefan invoked my name, calling me hence like the Batsignal on a cloudy night). This is one issue in which I feel I have a little stock set aside for a rainy day. I have something to say, but before that, let me make it CLEAR: I'm really not taking sides on this. I'm not going to say anything with the intention of "bashing" Morn (as entertaining a pasttime as that sounds...! :)). Per my (hopefully well-established) reputation, I just want to speak my mind, hoping to add a little clarity. Whether that results....well, that's up to people who're not me. (One more thing....this has nothing--nothing--to do with Ricard or his decisions.)

Well, Morn, there's no question that you're a unique presence on this board--in my mind, because you've been able to accomplish something no one else has: you have offended me in the past, something that's very difficult to do in a forum like this (though I have been offended for other people's sake a time or two, and not just on your account). I mean, there's nothing about people expressing their opinions that I could ever take personally (why some do is beyond me), but when things have gotten personal, you're nearly always the one on the scene. I'm not about to go digging through the archives for specific incidents; just know that I wouldn't say it if it hadn't happened.

However, I've been tolerant for the most part because of something Ricard has touched on: I honestly don't think you stop and consider the effects of your words very often. Now, you unquestionably have as much right to speak your mind as anyone on this board; but I believe the problem in this case stems from your too often taking the role of the proverbial tree in the woods--that is, you're making a sound, but you don't stop to think who's going to hear it, or how they might feel or respond as a result. I've known my fair share of people like this in the past, and can definitely say that it's not an uncommon malady, though an unfortunate one. I've seen you lay people flat (myself included), and have at times thought to take issue with you over it....but the thing is, in the end I sincerely don't think it's your intention to hurt or offend. I just think you take the notion of freedom of speech at face value--if you think it, why not just up 'n' say it? What you often don't seem to grasp is the finer points of vocal liberty. Sure, you can say what you want, but how you say it--your tone, your bluntness, and your attitude (as Ricard rightly pinned as the trouble) will all affect how people receive it, and how they will return your serve. If you want people's attention and respect, you have to earn them. The freedom alone won't grant them to you.

As an example, I will cite one instance that was mildly off-putting (nothing big, but it made me blink at the time), when you said I "wasted words." Now, that was your opinion, and you're welcome to it. But did you stop and think what I might think when I read that? I don't believe you meant to stick it to me, but I also don't think you considered what its ultimate effect might be. (In the end, I couldn't take it all that seriously, since....well, who's the bigger waster of words: one who's tallied less than 200 posts and crammed as much as what he hopes is substance into each of them, or one who's marking posts off by the thousands, and yet has spent them railing against his fellow members...?)

Hmm.... well I have explained my actions and asked what he intended to mean to clear it up... I would have though that more important than a single word that's difficult to say, but anyway. Sorry Ricard.

I disagree....explaining your actions--i.e., backing up your opinion--seems to be easier than anything else around here. And I agree with others that you've seldom (if ever) apologized before this. You'll find that'll get you a lot more milage out of a "Sorry" than digging into the foxhole of your point of view. (You'll also find that most people around here, if they're called to the mat on some inflammatory remark, will be quick to apologize for it.)

I don't try to offend people, infact I rather try and avoid that, but if I disagree with them, I think that finding the answer is more important than any other concern, infact I find the notion of telling someone lie to avoid a painful truth.... offensive. And if I am merely replying to a comment that offends me, why should I say sorry for offending others?

I marvel that you say you're trying to avoid offending people....just because I'm wondering what form that effort takes, and why it bears so little fruit....

You're right, to some degree, about not needing to lie....but at the same time, the "truth" need not be so painful. There are infinite ways of expressing it without fashioning it as a knife and twisting it while it goes in.

Now I'd take it to mean that anyone who considers AI a great film or masterpiece is a compete moron and a fool. You should not be surprised at someone being outraged by that arrogance, but if that's not what you meant, please explain exactly what you did mean.

Ahh, but I clearly remember (as I'm sure others will) that you took that very stance concerning The Empire Strikes Back several years ago. At that time, any of us who didn't laud it as the best of Williams's works were, in your eyes, complete morons and fools. I can well say that you've grown to avoid that extreme in the intervening time, but you've been proven guilty on the same count before.

I'm trying my best to help you see something here, Morn (while hoping fervently that I'm not offending you in turn, either). I don't for an instant believe you should be banned; no, you're not a troll, though you won't likely be winning any Mr. Congeniality awards around here anytime soon. I would be nice, though, if you'd consider that people do actually read the things you say, and they can often have results far different than what you intended. (If not....well, you're still entitled, aren't you? )

As for the rest of this thread....I think this is one of the best discussions we've had in a while. Many of us have called this place a "community;" I'd go so far as to say that when something like this comes up, and so many people jump to either smooth the waters or use the opportunity to get some stuff off their chests, we're drawing pretty near to the level of "family." (And every family has issues that need--or ought--to be dealt with like this, don't they?) And Miz was right....if Morn's the worst we have to deal with here, then we're still a damn sight more civilized than most boards on the web.

- Uni....who's just realized how many more words he might've just wasted....

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Uni, i'm pleased to see that the Batsignal reached you.

Your words are not wasted, and i'm glad you took the time to contribute to this debate.

I totally agree with your opinion that Morn seems to speak without first thinking.

Now, he's far from the only one who has done that, I personally have very bad memories of accusing Ricard of uploading porn on this site, in the Natalie Portman debacle, so I know how easy someone can go to far.

But I also remember feeling like crap after finding out I actually hurt his feelings, and having a verey sleepless night, hoping my public, and private apology would be accepted.

I've become very tired of people who think they can say anything here to anyone, just because they don't believe in political corectness, and then after offending a person claim they were misinterpreted, or that the offended person should lighten up.

Morn has done that, as has Chrusher, and I won't even begin about Figo or A.I.

I'm glad Morn has apologised, and i hope he was sincere.

I also hope he understands that I did not start this thread lightly.

Stefancos- who felt like a twisted and warped version of Uni the last 2 days.

[tpigeon 3]

I've become very tired of people who think they can say anything here to anyone, just because they don't believe in political corectness, and then after offending a person claim they were misinterpreted, or that the offended person should lighten up.

Very well put, Stefan. I agree with you completely.

Ted

[Ren 75]

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Uni, you bring a happy tear to my eye.

[Guest]

Ricard, if you would hang out at the Horner Shrine INSTEAD...

then this would never happen!

No Morn there, I promise

Besides, it's good music

[Morn 8]

No explanation needed. I meant exactly what I said, not what you wanted to read.

I didn't want to read anything, why would I, I read what was there.

Morn, is that really you?

Err?

My apologies to those I might have offended. I think that people know that it's never my intention to offend anyone.

Or mine. And BTW, I've talked to other people who were also offended by what you said.

However, I've been tolerant for the most part because of something Ricard has touched on: I honestly don't think you stop and consider the effects of your words very often.

Well.. I do. I mean it's not that I don't care if what I say affects other people, it's that I think it shouldn't and if it does I can explain why it shouldn't. I also admire the daring, as you see in my signature. I'll often say to myself when posting, come on, you can be more daring than that. The point of that is not to start a debate, but just that I don't think people should be scared to talk about touchy things.

I believe the problem in this case stems from your too often taking the role of the proverbial tree in the woods--that is, you're making a sound, but you don't stop to think who's going to hear it, or how they might feel or respond as a result

No, I'm making a sound that I hope will be received well.

I just think you take the notion of freedom of speech at face value--if you think it, why not just up 'n' say it?

No, for example I think that deliberate insults are unacceptable in any circumstance. But I do think that no subject should be off limits.

Sure, you can say what you want, but how you say it--your tone, your bluntness, and your attitude (as Ricard rightly pinned as the trouble)will all affect how people receive it, and how they will return your serve.  

If you want people's attention and respect, you have to earn them. The freedom alone won't grant them to you.  

My attitude with Ricard was a result of his. But, I think it's best to be blunt, bluntness leaves behind pretentions and emotions leaving only honesty thereby hopefully it will not be so likely to be interperated as an insult or something like that.

As an example, I will cite one instance that was mildly off-putting (nothing big, but it made me blink at the time), when you said I "wasted words." Now, that was your opinion, and you're welcome to it. But did you stop and think what I might think when I read that?

I wasn't sure if you were even going to read it, with you being here infrequently. I just had to get that off my chest because...... of chrusher, I never said it before. What I meant by it was often taking pages to say paragraphs, it's a question of succinctness and efficiency. Yet I believe I later said I don't want you change and that it's your right to not. I don't believe it's within my rights to tell someone to change, plus if they change, you loose part of the atmosphere of a place.

I disagree....explaining your actions--i.e., backing up your opinion--seems to be easier than anything else around here. And I agree with others that you've seldom (if ever) apologized before this. You'll find that'll get you a lot more milage out of a "Sorry" than digging into the foxhole of your point of view. (You'll also find that most people around here, if they're called to the mat on some inflammatory remark, will be quick to apologize for it.)

Sorry is just a platitude. I think it's better to try and work out a misunderstanding or to say that you never intended to insult.

I marvel that you say you're trying to avoid offending people....just because I'm wondering what form that effort takes, and why it bears so little fruit....

Well I never outwardly insult someone, I don't say things only to offend people and though I think it's good to take risks I take them in what I think is the least risky way.

You're right, to some degree, about not needing to lie....but at the same time, the "truth" need not be so painful. There are infinite ways of expressing it without fashioning it as a knife and twisting it while it goes in.

Bluntness... to me is rather like more surgical, the more surgical the less mess.

Ahh, but I clearly remember (as I'm sure others will) that you took that very stance concerning The Empire Strikes Back several years ago.

Yeah, when I was 16 :roll:

I personally have very bad memories of accusing Ricard of uploading porn on this site, in the Natalie Portman debacle, so I know how easy someone can go to far.

Wasn't that an attempt at humour though? Maybe, knowing you.

I've become very tired of people who think they can say anything here to anyone, just because they don't believe in political corectness, and then after offending a person claim they were misinterpreted, or that the offended person should lighten up.

It's easy to be misinterpreted, especially with touchy subjects. That doesn't mean you should just give up talking about them, that's too easy and spoils opportunities to explore issues.

[Ricard 2,245]

No explanation needed. I meant exactly what I said, not what you wanted to read.

I didn't want to read anything, why would I, I read what was there.

OK, Morn, I've had enough with your sh*t. I see that your apologies weren't sincere at all. Your reply perfectly showed that you read something that wasn't written.

And BTW, I've talked to other people who were also offended by what you said.

"People"? How many? One person? Do you know how many people YOU offend every day?

My attitude with Ricard was a result of his.

No. Your attitude with me and with many others is the result of a problem that YOU have and YOU have to fix, as soon as possible, for your own good. The fact that you can't see this (even when people is saying it to you repeatedly) is simply amazing.

I think it's better to try and work out a misunderstanding

You've just proven for the last time that you're not capable of that.

So listen: This is my LAST warning (And this is not a 'personal issue'). All this time I've been VERY patient with you, but I think that three years are more than enough. So you'll have to be very careful from now on. Because the next time you manipulate people's words OR expand an arguement just for the sake of arguing, your user name will be deleted and all your IPs banned forever.

Thanks,

[Morn 8]

OK, Morn, I've had enough with your sh*t. I see that your apologies weren't sincere at all.

The apology was sincere, I certainly didn't want to cause all this trouble, but an apology is not an admittance of guilt and the thread hasn't stopped.

Your reply perfectly showed that you read something that wasn't written.

But quite well suggested.

"People"? How many? One person? Do you know how many people YOU offend every day?

Not with an arrogant demeaning tone.

You've just proven for the last time that you're not capable of that.

I've tried to reach an understanding..... by asking you what you did mean.

I had no idea that comment would cause anything like that, and I didn't expect you to take it so personally. I have been trying to explain why I said it and supported my reasons and asked you to clear up any misunderstandings so don't take my last post in the wrong way. I was quite sincere when I said sorry because I did not want to personally offend you in such a way, but I was annoyed which reflected in the tone of the post. I promise to try and be less offensive, but I can't promise anything else while being who I am.

[Ricard 2,245]

The apology was sincere' date=' I certainly didn't want to cause all this trouble, but an apology is not an admittance of guilt and the thread hasn't stopped.[/quote']

The thread won't stop until you want it to stop.

I had no idea that comment would cause anything like that' date=' and I didn't expect you to take it so personally.[/quote']

As I said (WHY' date=' for God's sake, should I repeat this again???), this is NOT a personal issue.

I have been trying to explain why I said it and supported my reasons and asked you to clear up any misunderstandings so don't take my last post in the wrong way.

You always 'support your reasons' in a very, very, very irrational (I know you're convinced of the opposite), controversial and irritating way. And who's taking posts in the wrong way? Me?

I promise to try and be less offensive' date=' but I can't promise anything else while being who I am.[/quote']

And I'm sorry to say this, but then you'll probably fail and will be banned.

[Morn 8]

The thread won't stop until you want it to stop.

Well I found it necessary to reply to Uni.

Only in your mind and maybe one more person. Don't blame me for what you do (intentionally or unintentionally) every single day.

I don't blame you, I say why I acted because of how I interpreted you.

Which, as I said before, is basically in your mind, not in my intention. Do you know how many people very often read your daily posts as 'arrogant and demeaning'?

But that's exactly why I am asking you to clarify just what you did mean so that I may understand your intentions which is a necessary for an understanding.

I don't see how my posts are arrogant and demeaning.

No matter what I said, the discussion will never end, simply because you are involved, and you don't know how to end discussions or reaching understandings.

How I am supposed to when you have this attitude?

As I said (WHY, for God's sake, should I repeat this again???), this is NOT a personal issue.

It seems to be personal to some degree. Perhaps I'm merely detecting annoyance.

You always 'support your reasons' in a very, very, very irrational (I know you're convinced that's exactly the opposite), controversial and irritating way. And who's taking posts in the wrong way? Me?

Well you seemed to be taking it to mean that I didn't feel apologetic, when I was trying to explain myself.

And I'm sorry to say this, but then you'll probably fail and will be banned.

Because I am misunderstood?

[Ricard 2,245]

But that's exactly why I am asking you to clarify just what you did mean so that I may understand your intentions which is a necessary for an understanding.

Nothing will ever be enough for you.

And I'm sorry to say this' date=' but then you'll probably fail and will be banned.[/quote']

Because I am misunderstood?

No, because you manipulate people's words and argue for the sake of arquing.

And this is my LAST post on the subject. I think I've had enough patience and I haven't kept my promise in my last two posts. But next time I will. Honestly, I DO NOT HAVE TIME FOR YOU AND YOUR LITTLE GAMES. So as I said, I won't respond anymore, I'll rather delete your reply, lock the thread and will pay a visit to the Administration Panel where I'll take the appropiate steps.

Thanks,

[Uni 306]

I also admire the daring, as you see in my signature. I'll often say to myself when posting, come on, you can be more daring than that.

Why am I not surprised by this...?

No, for example I think that deliberate insults are unacceptable in any circumstance.

Which is what is totally baffling here. Try to see what we're struggling with: 1) You say you don't just type without thinking; 2) You think deliberate insults are unacceptable in any circumstance; 3) You still manage to offend a number of people on this board on a regular basis. The logic doesn't jibe. If you're putting people off, but you know and mean everything you say....yet you don't intend things deliberately....sorry, it doesn't add up--unless you simply do not understand, on a basic, ground-floor level, how to socialize with people without rocking the boat. Which, all things considered, would appear to be the answer.

But, I think it's best to be blunt, bluntness leaves behind pretentions and emotions leaving only honesty thereby hopefully it will not be so likely to be interperated as an insult or something like that.

I'm never anything but honest and candid about my feelings and opinions on this board....and yet how many times have I caused offense in the last three years? There's a better way, Morn. It's a pity you can't see it.

Well I never outwardly insult someone, I don't say things only to offend people and though I think it's good to take risks I take them in what I think is the least risky way.    

Bluntness... to me is rather like more surgical, the more surgical the less mess.  

Your methods are as "least risky" and surgical as a man randomly firing a shotgun in a crowd.

Ahh, but I clearly remember (as I'm sure others will) that you took that very stance concerning The Empire Strikes Back several years ago.

Yeah, when I was 16 :roll:

Ahh....but now you're nineteen, and you've found wisdom. What was I worried about?

Which, as I said before, is basically in your mind, not in my intention. Do you know how many people very often read your daily posts as 'arrogant and demeaning'?

But that's exactly why I am asking you to clarify just what you did mean so that I may understand your intentions which is a necessary for an understanding.

I don't see how my posts are arrogant and demeaning.

Which, again, makes my point for me. If you could only see your words through everyone else's eyes....

But, in the end, Ricard's probably right: this is likely a vain effort. As you said yourself, Morn, you aren't about to change who you are, and I think it's just in you to act this way. Honestly, I'd much rather see you getting along with everyone that to see you banned (and by "getting along," I don't mean that we can't have debates and arguments and the like; that's part of what makes the dealings real around here); but I'm definitely another one who's just plain tired of watching your bull-in-the-china-shop routine. I've usually been the one working to patch things up between people, but at some point I've gotta concede that this one's probably outta my depth.

- Uni

[Rogue_Leader 2]

Somedays apologies go a long way!

Yeah but others days they don't even leave the house!

[ocelot 508]

As one of the older members on the board, let me say this. We all come from different areas of the world where our interactions with people and loved ones are also very different. I'm not quite sure how to put this but I think it's an issue that hasn't been addressed.

One of my best friends, Sonja, and I are an example of this. She is very "American" as I put it. She chooses her words carefully and goes out of her way to be nice about every subject even if she doesn't think it's a good thing. She on the other hand thinks that I am too blunt. I say what I feel and think of the top of my head. I believe that you don't have to mince words to get your point accross, just say it and stand by it. She thinks that I'm not nice in every situation. If someone asks me if they are fat, I'm not going to lie about it just because of their feelings. They asked, I'm going to be honest. Now remember, this is how me and Sonja view each other.

On the other hand, my previous boyfriend, Rod, from Sydney, viewed me as I do Sonja and I viewed him as way too blunt. He would just say, if you don't like what I am saying get over it. I would get very offended, but then I thought, hold on a second. He's not actually being mean. It's the way he talks. We are all a product of places we grew up in, our families, the way people from our region react to each other and act towards each other. We have to accept these differences and the way we all talk is going to be inherantly different so we have to accept that too. He is now one of my best friends EVER.

Another thing is age. We are all of varying ages and we are going to handle ourselves in a different manner. I say things differently now to when I was 10 years younger. I have friends who are 18 and those who are in their 50's. I take so much from the people who have experienced more, but I also love the passion with which my younger friends express their thoughts. They do get more angry and feel like their opinions have to be said in a forceful manner, but such is the naure of their spirit. I don't try and curb it or crush it. But I can walk away that day when I think reason is not going to be the winner. But I still love them and they are always my friends. It never bothers me. It's their way of growing up and finding their footing.

I don't think anyone needs to be banned. I value Ricard's posts probably more than anyone else here. He has been my chief reason for sticking by my Avatar of my boyfriend and for me being me. And he has always been gracious and an incredibly smart and insightful poster. But I also have to say that Morn has never insulted me. He has said things to me that pther people might have found insulting, but I know his sense of humor. A lot of what he says at least to me, is said with tongue in cheeck. And if he really be.ieves something and is forceful about it. Well, that is fine. It is his right. I just know from having been blessed with SO MANY friends in my life that we are all different and we express our passions in a different ways.

I really don't like it when Ricard does not post. Appart from the reasons I said earliler this is also HIS site and without him none of us would know each other at all, but I would also not like it if Morn was not here. He is a member of this comunity and many people would miss him. I know I would.

There are many people here who do not talk to me simply because I am gay. No matter what I say they never reply. That is OK. I still try and talk to them, I just never get a reply. There are others however that love to talk to me. That is why I stay here. It's going to be the same with Morn because of his way of interaction. We all grow up and change, he will too. Why not let the people who want to talk to him do so for without this board, they might not have that chance. He might also benefit from it, you never know.

There is no need to reply to this. I don't want to get into the ins and outs of this particular problem, as I believe it is none of my business, these are just some things I hope you both consider when talking to each other and in thinking about the last couple of encounters.

Ricard and Morn, I know you both feel you are right, and both of you have your points. But let's see if we can learn from this and

be a little bit more patient. what we need to realize is that no matter where we are from we do need to be mindful not to hurt each other.

I like you both so I hope I get to talk to you both for a long time!

Wael

[JoeinAR 1,949]

very well said, Wael.

Joe, who is glad to know Wael/Ocelot.

[Andreas 112]

Ricard and Morn, I know you both feel you are right, and both of you have your points.  But let's see if we can learn from this and  

be a little bit more patient.  what we need to realize is that no matter where we are from we do need to be mindful not to hurt each other.

I like you both so I hope I get to talk to you both for a long time!

Wael

I agree with you!

Andreas ( Admin )

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

So, we need to be even MORE patient with Morn.

Ok....

I guess.....

Stefancos-

[Ricard 2,245]

Wael,

I really appreciate your words and your effort. But this is not a personal problem between Morn and I. And it's in no way directly related to age, culture or environment. It's a particular problem with a particular person and his interaction with many members of the board. You also say that I have to be more patient. Well, I'll tell you that I've been more patient with Morn than I've ever been with anyone else. Which is a lot. So I stand by my previous words. That's all I have to say.

[Ren 75]

I completely agree with Wael, what nicely chosen words.

Now about Ricard. I definitely do want him to continue posting.

I definitely do want Morn to continue posting.

I understand Ricard, he has been patient with Morn that's for SURE. If he is through with members yucky attitudes and has set a line down then OK.

If it's not about Morn then we all need to be careful in our attitudes. I love these debates and this is definitely one of the most interesting threads I've read in a while. . . . .well except for stefan's and mine's PM's!

I do wish that Morn, as innocent as you may think you are, would realize that some people find offense at what you write.

You shouldn't change, but remember that someone could take what you say the wrong way. . and be prepared for their wrath I guess. :?

[UCFKevin 0]

Well at least Ricard's posting again......

[Morn 8]

Fine, keep your thread.