Composer Threads The Official Michael Giacchino Thread

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I'm talking about Sky High

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

James horner hacks, with awful results... and he is loved by many people and a respected composer.

[Lurker 5]

James horner hacks, with awful results... and he is loved by many people and a respected composer.

I don't know if he is loved as he used to be. When he first started he had a unique voice and a style mostly his own. Listening to Battle Beyond the Stars and Star Trek II - The Wrath of Khan despite the Prokofiev borrowings, they were clearly by the same composer. Does Giacchino have a style that makes you know immediately he wrote a piece of music or is he a very good chameleon right now? I enjoyed the score to The Incredibles but to me there wasn't a lot that was unique in it, that certain magic that instantly tells you who's music you are listening to.

Neil

[Justin 2]

I think 100 Mile Dash is the best cue that really has a some of Giacchino's style in it.

Justin

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

I heard some style of his in The Incredibles, a little thing, but it was there.

Time will say...

Luke who thinks Giacchino is not bad as he is, and emulating the style with complete original compositions is not a hack.

Didnt Williams do the same With Star wars? And that is vintage Williams score...

[Rogue_Leader 2]

I liked James Horner's early stuff but the last decade he has been shitty.

[Rogue_Leader 2]

OH yeah and does ANYONE else notice the INCREDIBLE irony that the two biggest bitchers of this thread: Neil and Stefan, post in it more than anyone else? They claim they hate this deal and it annoys them but they keep coming back to it.

I guess they must have masochistic tendencies and are glutton for punishment!

Hypocrisy can be a cruel mistress!

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Hey I started this thread for a reason.

I don't hate Giacchino, but I just find the idea of him swapping ideas with Williams to be ludicrous.

[Morlock 11]

I liked James Horner's early stuff but the last decade he has been shitty.

I think the early stuff is overrated. Wrath of Khan and Krull are every bit as good as they say. But I find, aside from those, the rest are meh. 88'-91' had a bunch of gems, 94-95' was good, and otherwise, it's been spotty. Cocoon was good, American Tale was Good, Titanic was great, Zorro was good, I loved A Beautiful Mind, liked The Four Feathers, liked The House of Sand and Fog, liked Troy.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Yes but even in his worst scores Horners has a definate personal style, despite how much he might copy from others.

When I listen to Medal Of Honor I hear an attempt as Williams-type music.

When I listen to Battle Beyond The Stars I hear Horner cribbing Goldsmith, but I also hear Horner.

Does Giacchino have that already?

[Lurker 5]

OH yeah and does ANYONE else notice the INCREDIBLE irony that the two biggest bitchers of this thread: Neil and Stefan, post in it more than anyone else? They claim they hate this deal and it annoys them but they keep coming back to it.  

I guess they must have masochistic tendencies and are glutton for punishment!

Hypocrisy can be a cruel mistress!

Rogue, you do realize I have to read every thread. And I hardly think I've posted here as much as you or Luke or Erik.

And I happen to agree with Steef in this case. I don't hear anything unique in his music that makes me go, "That's Giacchino!". All we're asking is that he gets a project that allows him to be unique and not merely an imitator. He's clearly capable of writing competent music, no one is denying that, it's just we want to hear what he can do without being given the directive, "Make it sound like (fill in composer here)".

Neil

[Adam 1]

Its mostly a matter of him getting more projects, I think. After all, JW doesn?t have that much of a personal style either, except in so far as he?s composed a lot of similar type movies. For example, if you separate out Star Wars, Missouri Breaks, Images, Schindler?s List and The Long Goodbye, there?s not a lot there to unify them as some sort of Williams sound other than an overall compositional strength and technique.

If he had composed Empire Strikes Back in 1967 it would have seemed like an abberation to his true style - cheesy 60s pop/orchestra music. And yet they?re all the same composer. I think somebody like Goldsmith or Horner, in general, provide something of a contrast in that they combine much of that versatility with something more personal that tends to show up from film to film. Some people prefer that, undestandably, though I don?t think it matters from the point of view of the film and I find the former more impressive, actually, even if it means that its harder to identify the "true" composer.

From what little I know of Giachinno, he?s closer to Williams in this regard, although he has a long way to go before he?ll reach that level of overall ability. The Bond style was very defendable given the look and story of The Incredibles but one of my quibbles was that he could have gone a little further in giving the music its own personality. I don?t care so much if it has Giachinno?s personality, whatever that is, but rather that it could have had a little more of the uniqueness of the movie while still retaining the appropriate homage to an earlier era.

- Adam

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

OH yeah and does ANYONE else notice the INCREDIBLE irony that the two biggest bitchers of this thread: Neil and Stefan, post in it more than anyone else? They claim they hate this deal and it annoys them but they keep coming back to it.  

I guess they must have masochistic tendencies and are glutton for punishment!

Hypocrisy can be a cruel mistress!

Rogue, you do realize I have to read every thread. And I hardly think I've posted here as much as you or Luke or Erik.

And I happen to agree with Steef in this case. I don't hear anything unique in his music that makes me go, "That's Giacchino!". All we're asking is that he gets a project that allows him to be unique and not merely an imitator. He's clearly capable of writing competent music, no one is denying that, it's just we want to hear what he can do without being given the directive, "Make it sound like (fill in composer here)".

Neil

Well i do.

I cant explain it but i do.

[A24 4,338]

Its mostly a matter of him getting more projects, I think. After all, JW doesn?t have that much of a personal style either...

----------------

Alex Cremers-who thinks John's "voice" hasn't changed much over the years and is very recognizable.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Williams definatly has changed over the years, but he's still very reconizable.

[A24 4,338]

I mean, in all those threads where Williams had to be defended against claims that he only "steals" from the classic composers, we always awarded him the capability to shape things into his "own style".

[Lurker 5]

Its mostly a matter of him getting more projects, I think. After all, JW doesn?t have that much of a personal style either...

8O

8O indeed.

Neil

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I mean, in all those threads where Williams had to be defended against claims that he only "steals" from the classic composers, we always awarded him the capability to shape things into his "own style".

Just like James Horner always does.

[A24 4,338]

Why else do we say, "It's a Williams score"? Or, "All Giacchino does is copy John Williams"? How can he copy Williams if Williams has no style of his own?

[Lurker 5]

I mean, in all those threads where Williams had to be defended against claims that he only "steals" from the classic composers, we always awarded him the capability to shape things into his "own style".

Just like James Horner always does.

I'm not aware of Williams "wholesale lifting" a note for note copy of another composers work. I can name many, many, many times where Horner has directly taken music by other composers.

Neil

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

And still maintaining his very own "Horner" style.

[Lurker 5]

And still maintaining his very own "Horner" style.

Which consists of lifting Goldsmith, Prokofiev and Khachaturian.

Neil

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Only on very rare occasions, 95 % of what Horner has composed is completely his own.

[Adam 1]

Why else do we say, "It's a Williams score"? Or, "All Giacchino does is copy John Williams"? How can he copy Williams if Williams has no style of his own?

Because you're talking about a specific Williams genre. He doesn't sound like Williams doing Stanley and Iris, for example. Its easy to quote half my sentence and express shock, apparently ignoring or failing to understand everything that followed. My point with regard to JW, is that if one takes into account the total output of film scores, there?s nothing that unifies them except a compositional strength and a technique that, as JW has said, is as unavoidable as one?s handwriting. Its particluarly remarkable that you felt it necessary to quote half my sentence leaving out the crucial part where I say, ?except in so far as he?s had to score a lot of similar type movies?. If his career only consisted of The Long Goodbye, Images, Star Wars, Schindler?s List, Sleepers and Catch me if you Can you?d be hard pressed to explain to me what the unifying style is. Why? Because they?re all very different movies. All of this is explained in my post when I refer to his recognizable style of the 60s, for example. I never said his music couldn?t be recognized or that he didn?t have a certain musical approach within certain genres.

And, of couse, all of this ignores his concertos and symphonies, a ?style? that has little resemblance to his film works. Perhpas I?m wrong and somebody can describe the unifiying style that links all his film works, or even better, all of his compositional work, non-film too. Otherwise, I?ll assume that all these reactions are the result of a complete misreading of my post.

- Adam, having unbelievable log-in problems

[Kendal_Ozzel 36]

Only on very rare occasions, 95 % of what Horner has composed is completely his own.

I can't argue with that. 8O

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

- Adam, having unbelievable log-in problems

Not to mention credibility problems.

John Williams HAS a distinctive style.

It's very diverse and versatile, i'll grant you that.

Maybe not as blatantly reconizable as John Barry or Jerry Goldsmith, but it's there.

King Mark refers to it as the "John Williams fingerprints"

It's hard to pin point, but also hard to miss.

If he did not have his very own style, would we even be here?

[Lurker 5]

Adam, having unbelievable log-in problems

Log out of the message board. Go to the main page www.jwfan.net and scroll down. On the left hand side log in there and click, "Remember Me". Send me a nickel. Say good-bye to the log-in problem.

Neil

[A24 4,338]

Not writing the same tune over and over again doesn't mean he doesn't have a distinctive style (I do not mean his musical "technique"). The occasional departing of a typical style doesn't mean he lacks one. Everybody recognized Williams' style the first time they played The Terminal. Some people even thought of Schindler's List when listening to this lighthearted comedy! When I first listened to Fitzwilly (a 60s score, for Pete's sake) I was stunned to hear that it sounded so familiar "Williams". By God, many people are even getting sick of hearing the typical Williams sound. They long for him to do something radically different.

Images is probably the only score I wouldn't attribute to Williams.

----------------

Alex Cremers

[Adam 1]

- Adam, having unbelievable log-in problems

Not to mention credibility problems.

John Williams HAS a distinctive style.

It's very diverse and versatile, i'll grant you that.

Maybe not as blatantly reconizable as John Barry or Jerry Goldsmith, but it's there.

King Mark refers to it as the "John Williams fingerprints"

It's hard to pin point, but also hard to miss.

If he did not have his very own style, would we even be here?

The credibility problems are among those who are engaging in a staw-man criticism against things I've never said. What you described is reasonable and its the kind of thing I was referring to when talking about his technique and compositional strength. You can call that a style if you want. I don't think that's the right term but your position is clear at least.

And thank you Neil, assuming this post goes through.

- Adam

[John Crichton 4]

One of the main arguments of Williams detractors is to complain about how "all his scores sound the same". It's complete bunk, but that wouldn't be possible if he didn't have his own style.

John- glad this thread finally got interesting.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

What you described is reasonable and its the kind of thing I was referring to when talking about his technique and compositional strength. You can call that a style if you want. I don't think that's the right term but your position is clear at least.

Can't using a certain compositional technique combined with youw own musical voice that you put into your work without even thinking about it basically be called a "style"?

Goldsmith wrote in similar measures and rhytmes all the time, that's what formed his style, and I have not heard anyone else sound just like him.

Same for Barry.

[Adam 1]

In that sense, everyone has a style. I think people like Goldsmith, Horner and, certainly, Barry, bring their own distinctive voices to the movies more so than JW. Williams' voice (or style if you like), taking into account the totality of his works, is much more chamelean like. It has a compositional integrity and a certain dramatic flair, an overall quality, that, like you said, is hard to describe. That's much more abstract than what the other composers mentioned bring to their movies, which I think is much more tangible.

- Adam

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

So we pretty much agree.

[Adam 1]

One of the main arguments of Williams detractors is to complain about how "all his scores sound the same". It's complete bunk, but that wouldn't be possible if he didn't have his own style.

John- glad this thread finally got interesting.

Actually, this doesn't make sense does it? The more obvious he were to apply one style, the more likely the scores are going to sound the same. For example, John Barry's style has some range over the totality of his career but is much more subject to this criticism of sounding the same precisely because he seems imprisoned by his unique "style".

- Adam

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Barry is an extreme example, he's been unable or unwilling to get out of this style he's been writing in foir the last 2 decades or so, and what's worse with every score he just seems..to...be...slooowwwwiiinggg....ddddoooowwwwnnnnn...

Goldsmith's work in the last 15 years of his life have have been very similar in style, which some a lot of people complaining, but at least the energy, dynamics and precision of his writing stoll made it very enjoyable, even though it was often a variation on something he did before.

Late 90's Barry put's me to sleep.

But you can power your street if you were able to capture the kinetic energy from Goldsmith's last few scores in a battery. 8O

[A24 4,338]

All his concertos are written in a similar "style".

[Adam 1]

Barry has written concertos? Or are you speaking of Williams?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

He's talking about Williams.

[Adam 1]

Well, when we clear away the misunderstanding, this might basically be a debate about how to define ?style?. We?ve often had threads which refer to different styles that JW uses so I don?t think ?style? is the term that I would use to link everything but if others? want to, that?s fine. Its the basic point that I?m trying to get across, I don?t care what language a person uses. I?m a huge admirer and I obviously hear a JW voice in everything he has done but its very abstract to describe what that voice is and no one thus far has really been able to do it (including me). From my very first post today, I mentioned the unifying aspect of all his scores so there?s never been any disagreement that such a unifying aspect exists.

His concertos use a very modern, advanced type of writing that rarely gets used in his film scores. Again, I recognize his voice in it but I also think its a very different style of writing. If someone wants to say he uses different styles within some distant, abstract, overarching compositional style, I could agree with that -I just phrase it differently.

- Adam

[Hlao-roo 389]

John Williams's name is too generic, too easy to pronounce. Michael Giacchino's has that flair, that style to it. I think it makes him a better composer.

[A24 4,338]

Ok, whatever style John Williams uses, I always hear his "voice".

[Rogue_Leader 2]

Exactly Alex. Williams' music has a soul which he can seem to transfer regardless of the genre JW writes for.

Hard to decribe it, but JW definitely has a unique tough in all his music which is kind of like his musical fingerprint or sorts.

[Morlock 11]

John Williams's name is too generic, too easy to pronounce.  Michael Giacchino's has that flair, that style to it.  I think it makes him a better composer.

From the person who said "Dan Hobgood is GOD".

Williams is easy to recognize, as is Goldsmith. Horner, almost always. His synth stuff isn't uniqely his own (Well, it's not uniqely anything).

[Justin 2]

Williams synth stuff isn't uniqely his own (Well, it's not uniqely anything).

Which is why he, thankfully, avoids them.

Justin

[A24 4,338]

Williams synth stuff isn't uniqely his own (Well, it's not uniqely anything).

Which is why he, thankfully, avoids them.

Justin

He uses synths but perhaps less than others.

[Morlock 11]

Williams synth stuff isn't uniqely his own (Well, it's not uniqely anything).

Which is why he, thankfully, avoids them.

Justin

I was refering to Horner (proof that quotes should not be tampered with).

[Lurker 5]

From Andy Dursin's review at Film Score Monthly:

One thing that did bother me about the film, however, was Michael Giacchino's score. Giacchino is clearly a composer on the rise, and has done superb work on TV series like "Lost" and "Alias," not to mention countless video games (the "Medal of Honor" series in particular) that first gained him notoriety in the soundtrack world.

John Barry was initially contacted to write "The Incredibles" score, though Barry ultimately departed from the project (despite early trailers that prominently featured music from "On Her Majesty's Secret Service"). That didn't stop the filmmakers from having a "John Barry score," however, because Giacchino's music extends beyond mere homage, sounding at every turn like a Barry soundtrack -- complete with a recurring motif that sounds suspiciously like OHMSS with a note changed.

This wouldn't have been questionable had Giacchino brought more of his own "style" to the score as a whole. Instead, his score often sounds so much like the work of Barry than it ultimately comes across as less the work of Giacchino and more of a wannabe, an imitation that would have been better had Barry actually scored the picture himself. At times, it almost sounds unethical, with long sections of music bearing Barry's trademark sound and writing. Certainly it's the most obvious soundtrack written in the vein of another composer in recent memory (at least going back to the days of John Williams imitators in the wake of "Star Wars").

Neil

[Adam 1]

My take is that Giacchino was asked to do something that most composers would prefer not to do, including apparently even John Barry. There?s just no way to write Bond music and not sound like Barry of that era. However, it should be noted that even Barry was not writing this music in a vacuum - he was part of a much more general style that other composers were using at that time. Also, Giacchino seems to self-consciously reference Mancini at times and other times the music seems like music to an animated film with no obvious reference at all.

I kind of agree with his point in the sense that I think he could have gone further in the direction of finding a more unique sound for the movie. On the other hand, I disagree that the film would have been better off having John Barry. The thing that impressed me is that musically Giacchino?s music is still very interesting and enjoyable to listen to in a way that a derivative score of this kind could easily not be.

To take one example, even in Barry?s early Bond music, he often had the annoying practice of repeating a one or two measure phrase verbatim one after another. Its an exaggeration, but it would be like having a 4 minute piece but only having to write 2 minutes because we hear each phrase twice. In contrast, when I listen to The Incredibles, there's more sophistication in the arrangements, a nice little turn of phrase here and there or something that keeps it sort of fresh and fun to listen to. I think that its bccause of this kind of high quality of muscianship and the energy of it all that explains why so many people are enjoying the score.

He seems to review it from a very personal point of view. That?s how he reacted to the music, I?m sure he?s sincere. But the real question is how does the music serve the film for the average film goer, which he seems to say nothing about. I have my own criticisms but it seems a little overblown to talk about ?unethical? in the field of film music which is full of temp-tracks and where, even without them, the very art form itself can be so derivative - where composers are constantly having to reference musical associations that people have, in order to satisfy the film requirements.

- Adam

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

From the other side of the same coin (or the same thing with a possitive attittude):

From http://www.cinemusic.net/reviews/2004/incredibles.html at Cinemusic.net: <- Can anyone tell me how to do this right?

I imagine that looking for a start in scoring films and landing The Incredibles as your first assignment is a bit like panning for craw-daddies and finding, uh, plutonium (fine, you make an analogy). It's a dream project for any composer, but Giacchino has managed to rise above the already lofty expectations set for this opportunity. Following Bird's lead, Giacchino brings the spirit of John Barry's best swinging Bond music to The Incredibles, writing as though no time has passed between 1964 and 2004. I'm not sure why nobody's thought of bringing this sound to the superhero genre before, but Giacchino makes jazz and heroics seem like a completely natural match. With Barry's influence driving nearly every measure and more than a few nods to the edgy jazz of Mancini and Schifrin, in lesser hands this could easily have resulted in a piece of derivative fluff. Thankfully, Giacchino invests the music with so much boundless energy that it soars with above any mere pastiche effort and emerges with an identity of its own. Despite the enormous debt it owes to its influences, The Incredibles is very much a Michael Giacchino score. The same enthusiasm and meticulous attention to detail we found in the Medal of Honor scores is manifested here, though Giacchino's voice here is even more polished and developed.

This is not to undermine Barry's enormous influence on the music, however. As I mentioned previously, early teasers for the film prominently featured Barry's On Her Majesty's Secret Service, and I imagine it played a pretty big role in the temp track as well. I mention this again because Giacchino's theme for The Incredibles is clearly derived directly from this source. Appearing from the start ("The Glory Days") as a less elaborate adaptation of Barry's theme (the rhythm is identical, the melody only marginally altered), it would threaten to drag the score into temp-track purgatory if Giacchino weren't so clever. Thankfully, it quickly becomes clear that this is OHMSS is only the theme's starting point. Giacchino twists, transforms, and develops this theme into so many different shapes and forms that by the time the smashing "Incredits" roll out (a terrific big band number that is less a reprise than a thrilling and celebratory finale), you'll be so floored that you'll scarcely recognize any resemblance the theme once had to anything written by Barry. While easiest to spot in the big-band action licks, the theme is just as effective at romantic turns (towards the beginning of "New Babysitter") and personal introspection (towards the end of the highly moving "Adventure Calling"). There are few other smaller motifs sprinkled throughout (including a sprightly march for the children in "A Whole Family of Supers") but almost everything evolves out of that main theme, which gives the music a welcomed level of complexity beneath the excitement.

Luke

an imitation that would have been better had Barry actually scored the picture himself

Isnt that statement false? (from the things i have read here about Barry)

To state a last point, didnt Goldsmisth did the same for Supergirl? Im sure he was also asked to write it ike the Super Superman score.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

To state a last point, didnt Goldsmisth did the same for Supergirl? Im sure he was also asked to write it ike the Super Superman score.

I'm sure he was asked, but Supergirl is a very different score then Superman.

Goldsmith never sounded like Williams, even is he was scoring films that were ripped of from successfull Williams scored films (Indiana Jones, Superman...)