ESB Lovefest makes me sick.

[King Mark 3,631]

To me some of Picasso's paintings look like a 5 year's old...oh right,there's some deep thinking and intelligence behind them apparently.

So all is relative.

K.M.

[Morlock 11]

To me some of Picasso's paintings look like a 5 year's old...oh right,there's some deep thinking and intelligence behind them apparently.

I know a highly accomplished painter who thinks Picasso is one of the biggest frauds ever, and (like Horner IMO) lacked a ounce of originality, but he made up for it by painting what he knew people would like and praise.

[A24 4,337]

It's confession time for me. I don't care so much for paintings as an artform. It doesn't do me anything to have some random colors or a bunch of flowers hanging on my wall. I simply like my walls to be white. I have no posters, paintings, photos or anything else that could spoil a good white wall. I think (and know) that music is the highest form of art. I have little need for anything else. I'm not saying that all other artforms should be banned from this world but if and ever they do decide to ban it, well, my life wouldn't change all that much. But if one day they decide that music is no longer permitted then I'm the first one to pull the trigger and shoot the bastard that came up with such a gruesome idea.

----------------

Alex Cremers

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Damn, you really have no taste at all do you?

White wall?????

[A24 4,337]

Damn, you really have no taste at all do you?

White wall?????

Haha, no, a very expensive white wall. It's almost like...art.

----------------

Alex Cremers

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

You don't think film is art?

- Marc,

[A24 4,337]

Good question. I say I put film right after music. However, is film truly art? It's called the Seventh Art, right? Film, an energy field created by all art forms [which] surrounds us and penetrates us [and] binds the galaxy together.

----------------

Alex Cremers

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

Hehe. Good save.

- Marc,

[Morlock 11]

I believe film is an art form, but not always used to create art.

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

Once again, Morlock speaketh truth.

- Marc, who agrees.

[hitman20 0]

You don't think film is art?

Film and it's music accompaniment is indeed art. Although it doesn't always sound "artistic", it does convey emotion and helps set the tone (and sometimes even the pace) of the film. Each theme, motif, leifmotif, etc., works on a psychological level and the film itself is the visual medium, thereby completing the art form.

[Ray Barnsbury 8]

Joe, can you give a definition of art, in your opinion? I'm genuinely curious to hear what you'd say, since you're so adamant about what is and what is not art.

Ray Barnsbury

[JoeinAR 1,949]

Ray, its easier to say what art isn't than what art is.

I can say though that by others usage here, all music is art, all film is art, and I just don't believe that, sorry.

[Ray Barnsbury 8]

Okay, just wondering.

Ray Barnsbury

[Guest]

Ray, its easier to say what art isn't than what art is.

Why? If you can define one, what's left is by default the other.

[Hlao-roo 389]

Garfunkel is Art.

[Hector J. Guzman 1]

Art Vandelay

[Morn 8]

Joe says we should all know what art is, but I don't think he knows what it is himself.

I'm not sure, I suppose art should aim for quality and originality rather than likablity and profitablity, because the latter is more entertainment than art.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

Joe says we should all know what art is, but I don't think he knows what it is himself.  

I don't say that Morn, I said some of you define art as everything.

[Morn 8]

Ohh yeah?

NOT all classical music is art either. Just because its old doesn't make it art.  

your reasoning applied to a childs drawing for it mother would be its art.  

Its not. Usually its crap, and the mother while proud of the child knows the difference. We here should too

I think TPM and AOTC are all art. Infact I'd say Always is too. Why, not because it's a masterpiece, but because it's trying to achieve quality. Not mere cliches and poppish audience grabbing like say Titanic score.

[Rogue_Leader 2]

Not mere cliches and poppish audience grabbing like say Titanic score

Didn't you defend this score in the other thread?

[Hlao-roo 389]

Ohh yeah?

NOT all classical music is art either. Just because its old doesn't make it art.  

your reasoning applied to a childs drawing for it mother would be its art.  

Its not. Usually its crap, and the mother while proud of the child knows the difference. We here should too

I think TPM and AOTC are all art. Infact I'd say Always is too. Why, not because it's a masterpiece, but because it's trying to achieve quality. Not mere cliches and poppish audience grabbing like say Titanic score.

So the important criterion for art is that aspires toward "quality." But who determines how much "quality" the object of consideration attempted (if we want to personify it) to achieve? The person or persons who created it? The critics? The fans? The definition of art here remains very open...

...which is as it should be, and it seems silly to make a fuss over the use of such an inherently vague label that apparently provokes so much debate only because of its dignifying connotation.

[Rogue_Leader 2]

I dunno if AOTC aspires towards art. It really feels more like as if John kind of languished on thatr score. He didn't put as much effort into that one as previous efforts. TPM included.

[Morn 8]

Didn't you defend this score in the other thread?

Yeah, it's good entertainment but not art.

I dunno if AOTC aspires towards art. It really feels more like as if John kind of languished on thatr score. He didn't put as much effort into that one as previous efforts. TPM included.

I don't agree, Williams tried a more.... contemporary style with new heights in his rhythmic writing.

But who determines how much "quality" the object of consideration attempted (if we want to personify it) to achieve? The person or persons who created it? The critics? The fans? The definition of art here remains very open

Probably musicians, some fans and critics. Yes it is some what open, but I think it's by far the best you can get, less open than most.

[Rogue_Leader 2]

I don't agree, Williams tried a more.... contemporary style with new heights in his rhythmic writing.

Well why try a new scoring style? That is totally incomprehensible after scoring 4 films in the same style.

Why try and blaze new ground that far into the series?

May as well just finish out the saga using the same style to keep things consistent.

[Morn 8]

But that would be inconsistant with the goals of the true artist who always tries to do better and evolve.

[Rogue_Leader 2]

But that would be inconsistant with the goals of the true artist who always tries to do better and evolve.

By this logic Morn George Lucas did the correct thing with his utterly atrocious "special edition" changes.

If Greedo shooting first is trying to do better and evolve I think Darwin would roll over in his grave!

[Morn 8]

He did the correct thing.... poorly.

[Rogue_Leader 2]

He did the correct thing.... poorly.

and this is why Morn you don't mess with something when its reached a pinnacle level. Sure you can make it better, but 99% of the time you end up making it worse.

Besides IMO remaking stuff is pointless. Its like movie remakes.

John's time and energy are better served working on original projects.

[Morn 8]

Well, you always have the original left. And re-recording scores is nothing like movie remakes, that's just absurd. We have professionals in new performances in music.

[Morlock 11]

Well, you always have the original left. And re-recording scores is nothing like movie remakes, that's just absurd. We have professionals in new performances in music.

Yeah. The Debney/ McNeely/ Townson team has done great stuff.

[Lurker 5]

Well why try a new scoring style? That is totally incomprehensible after scoring 4 films in the same style.

I don't think the first four scores were written in the same style at all. Star Wars was written in a very romantic 19th century idiom while all of the other scores are much more modern sounding.

Neil

[Hector J. Guzman 1]

But in Episode II he really deviated to something completely unexpected with that whole chase scene in capital city.

[Guest]

That's called Post-Minimalism..

[Hector J. Guzman 1]

[Morlock 11]

Well why try a new scoring style? That is totally incomprehensible after scoring 4 films in the same style.

I don't think the first four scores were written in the same style at all. Star Wars was written in a very romantic 19th century idiom while all of the other scores are much more modern sounding.

Neil

I think TPM sounded totaly different than the first three. So did AoTC, but I think that is one of the 5 worst JW scores since the early 70's.

I was watching Pirates of the Caribbean the other day (nice movie, BTW), and the score sounded exactly like Zimmer, but the credit was for some other guy, but later on the credits not only Zimmer's name appeared but also other clones including Glennie-Smith. This seems more like a factory of sounds instead of art, as Joe would put it.

You can't use that as an example- that is the worst of the worst. Klaus Badelt and like 15 other guys put something together in a hurry. Zimmer was the overproducer.

[Hector J. Guzman 1]

I think it's representative of the group

[SeekUYoda 0]

Well why try a new scoring style? That is totally incomprehensible after scoring 4 films in the same style.

I don't think the first four scores were written in the same style at all. Star Wars was written in a very romantic 19th century idiom while all of the other scores are much more modern sounding.

Neil

I think TPM sounded totaly different than the first three. So did AoTC, but I think that is one of the 5 worst JW scores since the early 70's.

I think you're right - TPM and AOTC sound totally different, even though they work with a lot of the same themes. It sounds shinier, there's none of the "old and dusty" sound of ANH-ROTJ. I think it's due to three factors - the film technology has improved so much that it looks cleaner and brighter, the recording industry has really stepped it up, and Williams himself had an awful long time to evolve from that style to his newer style. All composers' styles evolve over their lives - I think JW is entitled to do it too! I really hope that he tries to return to his old style to connect TPM and AOTC with the older trilogy in Ep III. Wouldn't that be cool?

[A24 4,337]

the film technology has improved so much that it looks cleaner and brighter

Oh my God, and I thought I heard them all.

----------------

Alex Cremers

[QMM 4]

Jesus, chew before you swallow

[Morn 8]

Oh my God, and I thought I heard them all.

You disagree that modern film generally has more resolution and nicer colours?

[SeekUYoda 0]

the film technology has improved so much that it looks cleaner and brighter

Oh my God, and I thought I heard them all.

----------------

Alex Cremers

I'm sorry - I really know very little about the changes made except for that when I look at AOTC and TPM versus ANH, they just look clearer. A bit fake, but definitely more vivid. And somehow, I think the sound of the soundtracks reflects that - orchestration, perhaps? So I wasn't trying to offend anybody... I just know what I think it looks like.

[Hector J. Guzman 1]

Williams also said he'd be using the leitmotif techinque when scoring the new Star Wars films, but in Episode II I think he forgot about that. There are virtually no themes other than the "Across the Stars" love theme, and some motifs that change, not being too constant in that regard

[Morn 8]

It is leitmotif based, it uses themes of the old scores through out it, as well as the new theme and the new motif's. Granted it's not leitmotif in the same way as the original trilogy.

[Hector J. Guzman 1]

Oh, well. Sad, though, the way things have turned out.

Williams The Days Between

Oliver Reichhardt, piano

[Morn 8]

Probably more leitmotif than TPM, that had so much atmospheric stuff and bombast.

[Hector J. Guzman 1]

You think? I considered TPM more like the previous scores, not as much, though

[A24 4,337]

For starters, TPM is captured on celluloid film (70mm) just like Star Wars (A New Hope). However, a few scenes from The Phantom Menace have been shot with a high definition digital camera which was the first time this ever happened. Attack of the Clones is entirely(!) shot on high definition digital video. So in a sense, you were right, film has evolved. It has changed from film to video!

When it comes to using film, the difference between A New Hope and The Phantom Menace is that the former is "old". Celluloid prints begin to deteriorate after 10 years. Magnetic tape (compact cassette, VHS) also deteriorates with the years. That's why all films of a certain age should need thorough restoration. A new print that's being transferred to DVD always wins from an "old" movie when it comes to freshness (less visual artifacts).

Another difference in the Star Wars movies is that special effects have advanced. Besides the fact that George deliberately uses more color in his sets, he now also creates "CGI sets" that look more complex and often more colorful (animation) which is in contrast with the more spartan, sober design of A New Hope. The new trilogy intended to look more colorful. These are suppose to be the "decadent years", a time before the rulership of a tyrant.

If "old" movies do get their highly needed restorations (storage conditions are also a key factor) they can look every bit as sharp and colorful as new movies or even look better .

I hope this clarifies it a bit.

----------------

Alex Cremers

[Lurker 5]

For starters, TPM is captured on celluloid film (70mm) just like Star Wars

One correction.....they were filmed in 35mm, not 70mm.

Neil

[A24 4,337]

Ah yes, it was originally shot in 35mm and the effects sequences were shot in Vistavision. I've seen the 70mm version (blowup) & 6 Track Stereo Dolby Sound.

Very few films are shot in 70mm and Star Wars isn't one of them. True to the bone, Indysolo!

----------------

Alex Cremers