John Williams career slump?

[nja 0]

Interesting to me to hear many refer to JW's "golden years" or his slump from blank year to blank year.

IMO, although his writing styles have evolved over time, the level of his output has remained consistently excellent and in regards to his current output, has never been higher.

So if you had to outline the artistic quality of his output far, how would you organize it?

[Hlao-roo 389]

Positively skewed bimodal.

[Morn 8]

More modern, gone from Newman/Rozsa type of scores into Herrmann/North. But it's remained of high standard.

[HPFAN_2 0]

Excellent. With the inevitable bumps in the road.

[King Mark 3,631]

The quality os always there,but in some years the scores didn't interest me as much and was starting to "worry":

1986-1990

1994-1998

Golden Eras:

1977-1985

1999-200....

K.M.

[Hector J. Guzman 1]

Excellent. With the inevitable bumps in the road.

Yes, there was a bump. It's called The Patriot

Williams Excerpts from Close Encounters of the Third Kind

Los Angeles Philharmonic

John Williams

[Morn 8]

Bah, what's so bad about that score?

[Hector J. Guzman 1]

The movie.

[Peio 0]

Bah, what's so bad about that score?

it's not in his recent herrmannesque style, but in the copland one

good anyway

[pixie_twinkle 48]

Let's face it, Williams scores over the last 3 years or so have been pretty bland. Catch Me if You Can had some nice cues though. It's all just a little too uninvolved for my taste. He used to blow me away on a regular basis with his scores. These days he seems content to paint a wishy-washy backdrop with no detail. I fear this is the way many scores are going. Danny Elfman is one of the few composers who still sounds as grand as he did back in the 80s. Give that man an oscar (Big Fish best original score!)

[Morn 8]

Danny Elfman sucks, his music to quote John Adams is just a clever mix of Prokofiev and old scores.

I think Williams current scores have very high standards, AI was a masterpiece, AOTC was great, Harry Potter was pretty great too.

[Ray Barnsbury 8]

He has had a strong consistency of excellent output over the years, and I don't believe that his recent work is of less overall quality than his earlier works. So basically, I agree with HPFan.

Ray Barnsbury

[djc242 0]

If one had to assign an academic grade to film scores, almost all of Williams' scores in the past years would receive A's. They may not shine as much as his more obvious ground-breaking moments, but they are unique. More and more film composers are refining their styles and entering new and wonderful periods of their own writing. It is hard to objectionally critique a film score without taking into account the entire body of the film (acting, directing, cinematography, design, etc.). In many cases, the score attempts to accompany a poor film, or one not thought-out as carefully as it should have been. How difficult indeed to write for film in a manner that both underscores the visuals and emotions, and one which exceeds all expectations of this message board.

[Lurker 5]

If one had to assign an academic grade to film scores, almost all of Williams' scores in the past years would receive A's.

The Patriot would get an "A"......for Awful.

Neil

[Morlock 11]

The quality os always there,but in some years the scores didn't interest me as much and was starting to "worry":

1986-1990

1994-1998

Golden Eras:

1977-1985

1999-200....

K.M.

1986-1990 had Witches of Eastwick, Empire of The Sun, Born on The Fourth of July, The Last Crusade and Home Alone, all great scores IMO.

1995-1998 had Amistad and Seven Years in Tibet, two good scores, and it has Sleepers, Rosewood, Stepmom and Saving Private Ryan- all of which had their high points.

If one had to assign an academic grade to film scores, almost all of Williams' scores in the past years would receive A's.

The Patriot would get an "A"......for Awful.

Neil

I don't think The Patriot is Aweful, I just think it's JW's only run-of-the-mill score since the 70's. Cute, simple, forgetable melodies. Goldsmith and Horner have been doing run-of-the-mill scores forever. Goldsmith is like Michael Cane- he never met a script he didn't like.

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

At least it didn't get a D for Dreadful or T for Terrible.

I'd say he produced E scores. Exceeds Expectations.

[Lurker 5]

I don't think The Patriot is Aweful

Me neither. I think it's awful.

Neil

[Guest]

Even though, according to many of you, the recent scores may not be like the old ones, the man still knows how to put the right music with the right image.

Personally, I think age has matured his sound, which has added to the quality of his scores and the movies they're in. Especially Minority Report. Before I saw the movie, the score was bland. But once I saw it, it totally came alive for me and I've never been able to call it bland sense. The most bland track of the score would be "Dr. Eddie and Miss Van Eyck", but even that sets a tone that I like to hear in music.

So I don't think JW's in a slump (unless that's what you call 2003).

[JoeinAR 1,949]

I think JW has produced some mediocre scores, such as SPR, but in the previous year he produced the wonderful LW. In 93 he wrote the underappreciated JP, and the overpraised SL. In 2002 he had 2 mediocre scores in AOTC and MR, and two good scores in COS and CMIYC.

Its not always the film, either. He made a good score to AI, and everyone here knows how I feel about the film. He made an ok score to Hook, but it wasn't good movie.

[HPFAN_2 0]

I enjoy the Patriot. So there!

[hitman20 0]

Danny Elfman sucks, his music to quote John Adams is just a clever mix of Prokofiev and old scores.

How does Elfman suck? I mean isn't he the number 2 composer in Hollywood?

[Morlock 11]

I don't think The Patriot is Aweful

Me neither. I think it's awful.

Neil

Ouch! you really are in a biting mood!

Danny Elfman sucks, his music to quote John Adams is just a clever mix of Prokofiev and old scores.

How does Elfman suck? I mean isn't he the number 2 composer in Hollywood?

I don't know if he's number two but he's definatly one of the top 5 (Williams, Zimmer, Horner, Elfman and Goldsmith- although Goldsmith is not on the top 5 bankable list).

[Hlao-roo 389]

Danny Elfman sucks, his music to quote John Adams is just a clever mix of Prokofiev and old scores.

How does Elfman suck? I mean isn't he the number 2 composer in Hollywood?

If you mean in terms of "most sought after," I could believe it. What Morn's apparently saying here is that though his music may be popular, it's cripplingly derivative.

[Morlock 11]

It may be derivitive, but it is good never the less.

[hitman20 0]

How does Elfman suck? I mean isn't he the number 2 composer in Hollywood?

Well to elaborate, when I was saying that Elfman was #2, I meant the second most in demand composer, according to the link below. I used that as my reference to state that he's #2. But honestly, Elfman's music is pretty good, although he has had a few slumps. I don't see how his music is that bad, and he even managed to recieve a nomination for it (i.e Big Fish!)

http://www.jwfan.com/modules.php?op=modloa...article&sid=342

[King Mark 3,631]

I like The Patriot,the love theme is good and the End Credit Suite is bombastic,plus theres some nice "tragic" string writing in cues like The Church Aflame and Susan Speaks.

K.M.

[Morlock 11]

How does Elfman suck? I mean isn't he the number 2 composer in Hollywood?

Well to elaborate, when I was saying that Elfman was #2, I meant the second most in demand composer, according to the link below. I used that as my reference to state that he's #2. But honestly, Elfman's music is pretty good, although he has had a few slumps. I don't see how his music is that bad, and he even managed to recieve a nomination for it (i.e Big Fish!)

http://www.jwfan.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=342

Hey, I was right on the money! Williams, Zimme, Horner and Elfman are 4 of the top 5 earners, and Goldsmith isn't!

[Hlao-roo 389]

I like The Patriot,the love theme is good and the End Credit Suite is bombastic,plus theres some nice "tragic" string writing in cues like The Church Aflame and Susan Speaks.

I agree with King Mark. I feel that it's a stronger, more consistently engaging listen than either score Williams wrote the next year. And, certainly, it was far from groundbreaking, but so was Harry Potter, and look how popular it is. On the other hand, I do wish Williams had written a somewhat homier score, perhaps using Mark O'Connor a bit more.

[Adam 1]

I agree, also. I thought The Patriot was a very effective score for the movie. I sort of take it for granted that we’re not going to get fresh feeling music for movies that are extremely derivative in a genre that JW has done extensively. When a different kind of movie comes along, JW delivers a more different kind of score - like CMIYC. The real test is how the music works with the film and, once again, I find it hard to find fault. He wrote a score that evokes all the different aspects of the film with his usual accuracy and dexterity. I’ll spare people the detailed score analysis, for now. (:

As to the topic thread, I think in pure musical terms JW has probably improved from the point of view of musical complexity and sophistication of the arrangements. But I’m probably not the best judge of such things and it would be hard to argue or prove in words, at any rate.

From the standpoint of his overall craft, I’ve been able to detect no drop-off or significant improvement over the years. If there are trends, they tend to be more related, I think, to the kinds of films he’s doing in a particular period. And when I read other people speak of trends in his ability, the comments often seem to be based on a kind of gut personal reaction to the score or series of scores, as opposed to any kind of worked out ideas as to how the music let down the movie (the standard I insist on using when judging a film composer’s contribution). Not a crime, of course, and sometimes not even the case - just an observation I’ve had.

- Adam

[Ray Barnsbury 8]

I'm with KM and Alan, though I don't feel The Patriot is stronger the HP:SS. It has a fantastic end credits suite, which is somewhat unfortunately the score's highlight. There are still many very nice parts throughout the actual score, though none match the emotion in the suite.

Ray Barnsbury

[Morn 8]

It may be derivitive, but it is good never the less.

I dunno, he has moments of genius, but generally his music is a choatic mess.

[Jeshopk 8]

Regardless of references to other composers's styles (can we ever get over this?) Danny is an original. But I'm not fond of much of his music.