Willy 0 Posted August 14, 2005 Share Posted August 14, 2005 You probably think I’m crazy, but in general I like to listen to soundtrack-albums the way the composer intended it to be, so in a sequence that usually differs from that in the movie. A lot of soundtracks lose contrast and coherence when played in chronological order, and I think John Williams is a master in sequencing. Tom Null and Robert Townson have also frequently done good jobs.A while ago I busied myself to turn the Special Edtion 2CD's of the Star Wars trilogy into a format that matches the cd's of Episodes I, II and III. That is, a 74-minute non-chronological order, as close to the original LP's as possible. This way you get a series of cd's from Episode I to VI that are not only similar in form, but also more coherent, not only as individual cd's, but as a collection.Only problem is: I don't have the Empire Strikes Back 2LP, only a tracklist and timings. So I had to guess here and there to compile it on CD, as Williams enjoys pasting short pieces together in one track. So my question is: does anybody have the Empire Strikes Back 2LP? And if so, can you tell me how to assemble it from the Special Edition 2CD?By the way, here are my designs for my CD's:http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v154/eld...arwars4voor.jpghttp://img.photobucket.com/albums/v154/eld...wars4achter.jpghttp://img.photobucket.com/albums/v154/eld...arwars5voor.jpghttp://img.photobucket.com/albums/v154/eld...wars5achter.jpghttp://img.photobucket.com/albums/v154/eld...arwars6voor.jpghttp://img.photobucket.com/albums/v154/eld...wars6achter.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted August 14, 2005 Share Posted August 14, 2005 A lot of soundtracks lose contrast and coherence when played in chronological order, and I think John Williams is a master in sequencing. I really disagree with both statements.in general a proper cronological order it the way the go, it's preserves the way the music was intended by the composer and has a clearer narrative when it comes to introduction and development of thematic material.Also I consider John Williams to be one of the worst soundtrack producers out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandor 797 Posted August 14, 2005 Share Posted August 14, 2005 Also I consider John Williams to be one of the worst soundtrack producers out there.I totally disagree with you on that. For example the original Close Encounters Of The Third Kind album is one of my favorite soundtrack albums (despite the awful sound quality). I enjoy the (almost) complete score re-release, but I find myself spinning the original disc a lot more. Also the original E.T. album. Ok, he had some help from Bruce Botnik on that one, but it's arguably my favorite soundtrack album of all time.Some mistakes: the original Raiders of the Lost Ark album, the Phantom Menace and Revenge of the Sith (so much excellent music from those films was left out on the initial albums), but stuff like Empire of the Sun, Far and Away, A.I., Jurassic Park and Schindler's List are definately winners in my book (from a production angle). Ofcourse the quality of the music stands above critisism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted August 14, 2005 Share Posted August 14, 2005 I totally disagree with you on that. For example the original Close Encounters Of The Third Kind album is one of my favorite soundtrack albums (despite the awful sound quality). I enjoy the (almost) complete score re-release, but I find myself spinning the original disc a lot more. Also the original E.T. album. Ok, he had some help from Bruce Botnik on that one, but it's arguably my favorite soundtrack album of all time.There are exceptions, naturally.But please take note of the fact that both albums contain many rerecordings and not the original film cues.I wonder if Williams feels insecure about his works and that's why he always messes with his cues before commiting them to albums.Some mistakes: the original Raiders of the Lost Ark album, the Phantom Menace and Revenge of the Sith (so much excellent music from those films was left out on the initial albums)Add Return Of The Jedi, which contained a staggering 4 out of 11 tracks that were re-recordings. Jurassic park that had the End Credits in the middle of the album. Presumed Innocent that gave away the name of the murderer in one of it's track titles. A.I. that includes not 1 but 2 cheesy pop songs plus a whole lot of albums that contain the exact same recording of the exact same material twice (SPR, The Patriot, POA...etc...etc...)but stuff like Empire of the Sun, Far and Away, A.I., Jurassic Park and Schindler's List are definately winners in my book (from a production angle). Ofcourse the quality of the music stands above critisism.If there is one thing I learned in my years here is that there is nothing above critisism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willy 0 Posted August 14, 2005 Author Share Posted August 14, 2005 Ever played his 'Dracula'-score chrono? It becomes rather boring with the same leitmotiv repeated track after track. And with the Special Edition Star Wars cd's there's long passages of actionmusic, followed by too long quiet passages IMO. Sequenced by JW, these albums remain varied.Occasionally he tends to put too much of the best tracks right at the beginning of an album from which the development of themes indeed sometimes suffers (like on WOTW and the second Harry Potter). And other albums repeat the main themes too often (like Schindler's List and Jurassic Park), but most of his albums really benefit from his sequencing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted August 14, 2005 Share Posted August 14, 2005 Ever played his 'Dracula'-score chrono? It becomes rather boring with the same leitmotiv repeated track after track. I'm not partial to that score (horrible sound) so I hardly ever play it.And with the Special Edition Star Wars cd's there's long passages of actionmusic, followed by too long quiet passages IMO. Sequenced by JW, these albums remain varied.I agree that John Williams edit of Star Wars flows very well, i've not heard TESB, but his ost of ROTJ is a bloody mess.Occasionally he tends to put too much of the best tracks right at the beginning of an album from which the development of themes indeed sometimes suffers (like on WOTW and the second Harry Potter). And other albums repeat the main theme too often (like Schindler's List), but most of his albums really benefit from his sequencing.With the exception of Jaws (since the OST is a different recording) i have not returned to any of the Williams produced OST albums after a well produced complete/exapanded score has been released.I have to agree with you guys on Jurassic Park, A.I. and Phantom Menace, though. They could have been sequenced a lot better.How about POA, did we really need a 12 minute end credits cue containing 10 minutes of material already on the CD?And what is Throne Room doing in ROTS? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willy 0 Posted August 14, 2005 Author Share Posted August 14, 2005 I agree that John Williams edit of Star Wars flows very well, i've not heard TESB, but his ost of ROTJ is a bloody mess.JW was forced by the studio to release a single LP instead of a 2LP (no doubt for commercial reasons), so he had to comprise over two hours of material. I think he did a good job on it, a lot better than on the single LP release of Empire.How about POA, did we really need a 12 minute end credits cue containing 10 minutes of material already on the CD? Maybe I should have mentioned this before: I always skip the end-titles of most soundtracks, as they usually offer nothing but needless repetition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A24 4,345 Posted August 14, 2005 Share Posted August 14, 2005 in general a proper cronological order it the way the go, it's preserves the way the music was intended by the composer and has a clearer narrative when it comes to introduction and development of thematic material.A chronological order is just one of the many routes you can take while compiling an album. But you also want to make a strong and varied album to bring about an interesting listening experience. It's an album - it's about music - we are not watching the movie. If that means, changing the order or even cutting down on is length, then who are we to question the composer? Just because Williams doesn't put them in chronological order doesn't mean that he's the worst album producer out there.----------------Alex Cremers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandor 797 Posted August 14, 2005 Share Posted August 14, 2005 WILLY!!!!Your designs are AWESOME!!! Great!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted August 14, 2005 Share Posted August 14, 2005 Just because Williams doesn't put them in chronological order doesn't mean that he's the worst album producer out there.----------------Alex CremersI agree, but if you add to that the fact that Williams has a tencency to put the same music on his albums twice, and that some of his albums simply sound awfull you might understand were i'm coming from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A24 4,345 Posted August 14, 2005 Share Posted August 14, 2005 Well, some composers are more concerned about emotions than sound. I think Williams is one of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted August 14, 2005 Share Posted August 14, 2005 The poor sound on Minority Report evokes some strong emotions with me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Breathmask 555 Posted August 14, 2005 Share Posted August 14, 2005 To find where all the music goes in different releases of the Star Wars trilogy check out Markus Hable's awesome site.You can find the comparison charts here:Star WarsThe Empire Strikes BackReturn of the Jedi- Marc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willy 0 Posted August 14, 2005 Author Share Posted August 14, 2005 A chronological order is just one of the many routes you can take while compiling an album. But you also want to make a strong and varied album to bring about an interesting listening experience. It's an album - it's about music - we are not watching the movie.That's exactly what I mean.Nevertheless I also have to agree with Stephancos that JW sometimes repeats his themes too often on some albums.@Roald: thanks, glad you like 'em! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A24 4,345 Posted August 14, 2005 Share Posted August 14, 2005 Are you becoming this board's Thor, Marc? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Breathmask 555 Posted August 14, 2005 Share Posted August 14, 2005 Who's Thor? And is it a bad thing?- Marc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted August 14, 2005 Share Posted August 14, 2005 Nevertheless I also have to agree with Stephancos that JW sometimes repeats his themes too often on some albums.My name here is Stefancos, not Stephancos, taking from the Dutch writing on the name Stefan instead of the German.Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willy 0 Posted August 14, 2005 Author Share Posted August 14, 2005 To find where all the music goes in different releases of the Star Wars trilogy check out Markus Hable's awesome site.You can find the comparison charts here:Star WarsThe Empire Strikes BackReturn of the Jedi- MarcThanks, Marc!But I think I still need some more info on certain combined tracks. So if there's anyone with more information on The Empire Strikes Back 2LP...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurker 5 Posted August 14, 2005 Share Posted August 14, 2005 Are you becoming this board's Thor, Marc?Willy is more Thor than Marc. He prefers album edits versus the complete and chronological/expanded editions. The covers are very nicely done.Neil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A24 4,345 Posted August 14, 2005 Share Posted August 14, 2005 Marc,Thor (thôr)n. 1. (Scand. Myth.) The god of thunder, and son of Odin. 2. provider of links in order to make the MB posters understand that the topic has been discussed before. 3. Discourager Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurker 5 Posted August 14, 2005 Share Posted August 14, 2005 But Marc didn't provide links to earlier discussions, which Thor does. He provided links that answered Willy's questions that were off-site.Alex, you're flawed and imperfect!Neil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Penna 3,694 Posted August 14, 2005 Share Posted August 14, 2005 I have to say I agree with Williams not being a good album producer. Reprising the same material twice and editing out crucial parts just for time are his main offences IMO. It is for this reason that I own HP 2 and 3, but not 1. The alternate version of Diagon Alley, inclusion of Hogwarts Forever and Fluffy's Harp, as well as a lot of good material edited out of other tracks irritates me greatly. PoA isn't a fantastic improvement either. The last 9 minutes of Mischief Managed shouldn't be there, and Apparition on the Train never attracts my attention. Given those omissions there would easily be enough room for all of the unreleased highlights. I don't expect everything to be in chronological order, but when stuff like 'rescuing sirius' is needlessly left off, and RotS's amazing finale is completely cut up, I get annoyed. I think JW is just out of touch with what his true fans really want. They should let us edit his next album and see the sales soar Prisoner of Azkaban - Rescuing Sirius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A24 4,345 Posted August 14, 2005 Share Posted August 14, 2005 Alex, you're flawed and imperfect!NeilYou're such a Trekkie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Breathmask 555 Posted August 14, 2005 Share Posted August 14, 2005 Marc,Thor (thôr)n. 1. (Scand. Myth.) The god of thunder, and son of Odin. 2. provider of links in order to make the MB posters understand that the topic has been discussed before. 3. DiscouragerHe asked. I answer. It's as simple as that.I asked. You answer. Good for you.- Marc, who will have some pie now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurker 5 Posted August 14, 2005 Share Posted August 14, 2005 Alex, you're flawed and imperfect!NeilYou're such a Trekkie.Thank you.Neil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted August 14, 2005 Share Posted August 14, 2005 - Marc, who will have some pie now.Hmmm...pie... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A24 4,345 Posted August 14, 2005 Share Posted August 14, 2005 Alex, you're flawed and imperfect!NeilYou're such a Trekkie.Thank you.NeilNo, I'm the one who should thank YOU! You see, being flawed and imperfect are human qualities, Neil. Unlike you, I'm not talking like a dispassionate entity.---------------Alex Cremers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted August 14, 2005 Share Posted August 14, 2005 Please Alex, you must learn to govern your feelings, they will be your undoing.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A24 4,345 Posted August 14, 2005 Share Posted August 14, 2005 Please Alex, you must learn to govern your feelings, they will be your undoing....You better tell your moderator that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted August 14, 2005 Share Posted August 14, 2005 He is your Moderator too, and if you wish you can speak to him directly, no need for me to relay your message. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurker 5 Posted August 14, 2005 Share Posted August 14, 2005 :roll: Neil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A24 4,345 Posted August 14, 2005 Share Posted August 14, 2005 He is your Moderator too, and if you wish you can speak to him directly, no need for me to relais your message.Relais the message? I'm afraid you lost me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olivier 5 Posted August 14, 2005 Share Posted August 14, 2005 Superb CD designs indeed.Do you ever do CD art (to stick on the CD itself, I mean)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henry B 50 Posted August 14, 2005 Share Posted August 14, 2005 It is for this reason that I own HP 2 and 3, but not 1. The alternate version of Diagon Alley, inclusion of Hogwarts Forever and Fluffy's Harp, as well as a lot of good material edited out of other tracks irritates me greatly.Um... yeah... I hate when you get material that didn't make the film. I mean, the original version of "Diagon Alley" is way less interesting than the recycled music from Track 6 that replaced it. And "Hogwarts Forever!" is just horrible, because it... er... well, it wasn't in the film.The TPM UE must be your Holy Grail of soundtracks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke Skywalker 1,795 Posted August 14, 2005 Share Posted August 14, 2005 Are the omisions of small tidbits in tracks Williams fault or the album mixers (or arrangers)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted August 14, 2005 Share Posted August 14, 2005 Williams is credited as producer of his albums, therefore the responsibility goes to him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke Skywalker 1,795 Posted August 14, 2005 Share Posted August 14, 2005 He is an old fart then :roll: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke Skywalker 1,795 Posted August 14, 2005 Share Posted August 14, 2005 What about music Editors? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurker 5 Posted August 14, 2005 Share Posted August 14, 2005 "Despite the appearance of his name as 'producer' on his albums it is becoming increasingly apparent that all of his focus is on the composition and the performance of the orchestra. He seems to pay little attention to what happens to the music once the recording sessions are over."-Michael MatessinoNeil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg1138 3 Posted August 14, 2005 Share Posted August 14, 2005 Is it just my system or is the artwork for the front of Episode 4 (sorry, Star Wars) not completely loading up? A bit seems missing from the bottom....Clever stuff thogh.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Penna 3,694 Posted August 14, 2005 Share Posted August 14, 2005 The TPM UE must be your Holy Grail of soundtracks.Actually.... no.TPM is one of the most boring movies I've ever tried to watch (same goes for AotC) and so even though I first heard the OST, I wouldn't have any idea what great music was left off.On the other hand, a Harry Potter UE would come a lot closer... In fact I've made my own little extended version of the first one by re-ordering the tracks into chronological order and adding a little extra material from a dvd-rip (mainly stuff missing from Journey to Hogwarts; the film version of Diagon Alley; and Entry into the Great Hall, tracking music from Diagon Alley to remove dialogue). Sometime I'll get the DVD and do a proper job Oh yeah... and the trackname 'Entry Into the Great Hall and the Banquet' must surely be false advertising, since it blatantly does not contain the former :roll: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henry B 50 Posted August 15, 2005 Share Posted August 15, 2005 On the other hand, a Harry Potter UE would come a lot closer... In fact I've made my own little extended version of the first one by re-ordering the tracks into chronological order and adding a little extra material from a dvd-rip (mainly stuff missing from Journey to Hogwarts; the film version of Diagon Alley; and Entry into the Great Hall, tracking music from Diagon Alley to remove dialogue). Sometime I'll get the DVD and do a proper jobWhy would you want to hear "Journey to Hogwarts" twice instead of the original Diagon Alley music? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurker 5 Posted August 15, 2005 Share Posted August 15, 2005 I've debated before with people who prefer massacred....I mean film edits. It's usually a lost cause.Neil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orson 1 Posted August 15, 2005 Share Posted August 15, 2005 Those designs are great Willy. One thing that should be fixed if you're looking for continuity is to replace on the first cover that pic of Leia from Empire and replace it with one of her in a white gown and buns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trumpeteer 302 Posted August 15, 2005 Share Posted August 15, 2005 I've come into this discussion quite late, but wanted to react.You probably think I’m crazy, but in general I like to listen to soundtrack-albums the way the composer intended it to be, so in a sequence that usually differs from that in the movie. A lot of soundtracks lose contrast and coherence when played in chronological order, and I think John Williams is a master in sequencing. LOL LOL LOL LOL So Williams doesn't intend his score to heard the way it's heard in the movie? So "ET" should not heard the way it's in the movie, where the main theme builds and builds and builds to the fantastic finale? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Mark 3,631 Posted August 15, 2005 Share Posted August 15, 2005 I have to say I agree with Williams not being a good album producer. Reprising the same material twice and editing out crucial parts just for time are his main offences IMO. It is for this reason that I own HP 2 and 3, but not 1. The alternate version of Diagon Alley, inclusion of Hogwarts Forever and Fluffy's Harp, as well as a lot of good material edited out of other tracks irritates me greatly. PoA isn't a fantastic improvement either. The last 9 minutes of Mischief Managed shouldn't be there, and Apparition on the Train never attracts my attention. Given those omissions there would easily be enough room for all of the unreleased highlights. I don't expect everything to be in chronological order, but when stuff like 'rescuing sirius' is needlessly left off, and RotS's amazing finale is completely cut up, I get annoyed. I think JW is just out of touch with what his true fans really want. They should let us edit his next album and see the sales soar Yes,I agree completely with every word of this post.for me only a handfull of his blockbuster scores have a decent one c.d. OST release.these would be WotW,AotC,Chamber of Secrets more recentlyThe worst offenders are :TPM,HPPS,RotS,HPPoA,Temple of Doom,Return of the Jedi.They could have put the entire JP and E.T.scores on one c.d. if they wanted to.I notice a lot of his lesser scores usually get a more theral and complete release,including even leftover cues that didn't make it in the film,like Terminal,Stepmom,CMIYC,7 Years in tibet...ect...K.M. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willy 0 Posted August 15, 2005 Author Share Posted August 15, 2005 So Williams doesn't intend his score to heard the way it's heard in the movie?You haven't been reading my post properly. I was talking about the soundtrack-ALBUMS, not the movies. Of course JW builds his themes and pays close attention to their arrangement in the film ('cause that's what's scoring is all about). But listening to a CD is a different experience from watching a film and therefore JW apparently sees need for rearranging cues. I'm sure he doesn't do that arbitrarely.And let me say again that there are cd's of which the sequencing doesn't work for me either.Those designs are great Willy. One thing that should be fixed if you're looking for continuity is to replace on the first cover that pic of Leia from Empire and replace it with one of her in a white gown and buns.Actually I took those illustrations from the video-release of the trilogy from a couple of years ago. But I could fix that nevertheless of course.Superb CD designs indeed. Do you ever do CD art (to stick on the CD itself, I mean)?I'd like to, but sometimes home-made cd's with art sticked on it won't play anymore, so I don't really bother. I did however made art to go into the inside of the jewel-cases (so you can only see it when you remove the cd), but it just contains of a single image for each cd, so I didn't bother to post them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Mark 3,631 Posted August 15, 2005 Share Posted August 15, 2005 Who still uses cdr's?K.M. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willy 0 Posted August 15, 2005 Author Share Posted August 15, 2005 Apparently I do. What other medium do you suggest? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke Skywalker 1,795 Posted August 15, 2005 Share Posted August 15, 2005 The TPM UE must be your Holy Grail of soundtracks.Actually.... no.TPM is one of the most boring movies I've ever tried to watch (same goes for AotC) and so even though I first heard the OST, I wouldn't have any idea what great music was left off.Regardless of the movie, which can be boring to some, the music is great.And yes, there is about one hour or more left, with great music and unused cues.One of Williams' (quasi)Masterpieces. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now