Romão 2,274 Posted October 19, 2006 Share Posted October 19, 2006 You study music so you can make money from it, that's very logical, but hardly something the rest of us should admire.I can only admire someone who has had the discipline and dedication to study music all his life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Penna 3,694 Posted October 19, 2006 Share Posted October 19, 2006 And Richuk,I don't see how I was really being immodest? I simply refuse to take criticism of my opinions on music and craft seriously unless it comes from a fellow musician (which Steef, as I've come to understand, is not). And I refuse to take criticism of my aethetics seriously unless it is informed by an actual opinion of my work, not my words.So if I state an opinion that doesn't match yours, you won't take it seriously because I'm not a musician like you, only a dedicated fan?That's what I call immodest and degrading to myself as a serious music fan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted October 19, 2006 Share Posted October 19, 2006 Indeed! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcus 390 Posted October 19, 2006 Share Posted October 19, 2006 Richuk,Don't get me wrong: We are all entitled to our opinions, and I have never argued with that. But there are certain technical issues that one should perhaps feel loath to discuss with a professional unless one is properly equipped to do so. And even more loath to criticize and generalize a professional artist's values without knowing that person's work. This is simply a matter of taste and courtesy and decency.I am sorry if you feel offended. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romão 2,274 Posted October 19, 2006 Share Posted October 19, 2006 I for one I´m glad we have versed people like Marcus in this board. It can really help you appreciate music on different levels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcus 390 Posted October 19, 2006 Share Posted October 19, 2006 Oh, Merkel, thank you so very much, that is most generous of you! I really don't mean to annoy, or to seem self-important, I am just very happy to be among fellow fans of John Williams' work, and revel in the chance to discuss his music, and simply approach it from my angle,my perspective. And nothing here is more rewarding than feeling appreciation for that approach. Thank you again, you've made my evening! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romão 2,274 Posted October 19, 2006 Share Posted October 19, 2006 For instance, that wonderful piano theme from AI which is absent from the original cd. The goes in one direction, then there´s a note that just sounds out of place, and Williams gives it the most wonderful resolution. How do you see that theme´s construction from a technical point of view? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcus 390 Posted October 19, 2006 Share Posted October 19, 2006 I don't have the expanded promo CD, do you remember which scene in the film? I will offer a quick analysis a.s.a.p.Best,marcus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dixon Hill 4,234 Posted October 11, 2014 Share Posted October 11, 2014 Recent discussions of Shore's influences led me here.Wow. Lot of... silly opinions.There's some classic deification of Williams at the expense of other composers, this time, Shore. Here's the thing. The fourth option is the correct one. Both are unoriginal. The way I see it, most if not all composers have 1) strong roots in an established period/musical vocabulary, and 2) subtle additions or innovations that solidify their own language. It's obviously a rare thing that someone comes along and says something totally unprecedented.In Williams' case, the first is in the swath of known, but mostly unknown, late 19th century romantics. Forget the obvious Elgar and Tchaikovsky and so on. Do some digging on Youtube around the channels that have tons of symphonies etc. by all those Europeans that no one has ever heard of. It's all there. His personal innovations lie in his seamless integration of jazz idioms and harmonies with classical ones (though this had been done with varying success by previous composers). And not only jazz, but as Ludwig will tell you, he has an unrivaled mastery of unified eclecticism covering all sorts of stuff beyond that core late romanticism.For Shore, the first goes to the eastern European, 20th century avant-garde and minimalists. Penderecki, Górecki, Kilar, Pärt... and also, to my ears anyway, the more neo-classical offerings of Philip Glass. The second involves his use of aleatory (especially outings such as The Cell where it pretty much takes precedence over notated score - seriously, how badass?), and his taste for diatonic clusters and clashes, which he may be single-handedly responsible for making cool in film music (yeah, Davis helped out too). Another thing that I think sets him apart as an original voice, and this is in direct disagreement with some opinions voiced earlier in this thread: his orchestrations. There just isn't anything awkward or clumsy or... whatever about them. It's an extremely earthy, archaic sound. Obviously deliberate and not the result of some deficiency or "lack of understanding" of "classical traditions". Ahem. Anyway. Take a look at some of his scores and sketches. Exceedingly effective stuff, and yes, often the opposite of what the unassailable Professors of Orchestration may tell you is ok. It's a short list of other composers, for film or otherwise, who have that many trademark sonorities and colors that you just won't hear anywhere else. KK and Gnome in Plaid 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharkissimo 1,973 Posted October 11, 2014 Share Posted October 11, 2014 Grey, I'm sure Marcus's opinions on Shore have matured in the last 8 years. No need to make a crusade out of it, as if Shore's standing here is at an all time low. Let it go mate! Not Mr. Big 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KK 3,307 Posted October 11, 2014 Share Posted October 11, 2014 Nah, that post was brilliant. Saved for reference. And while Marcus' opinion of Shore may have changed a bit, a lot of people here still follow that line of thinking.Both the JW elitists and the Shore fanboys here could learn a thing or two from Mike's post. Cheers mate! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dixon Hill 4,234 Posted October 11, 2014 Share Posted October 11, 2014 No I'm pretty sure I suck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KK 3,307 Posted October 11, 2014 Share Posted October 11, 2014 I don't know. You might suck, can't say. But that post rules! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted October 11, 2014 Share Posted October 11, 2014 Who's Mike? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KK 3,307 Posted October 11, 2014 Share Posted October 11, 2014 Who? Glóin the Dark 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted October 11, 2014 Share Posted October 11, 2014 You mentioned a Mike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gkgyver 1,645 Posted October 11, 2014 Share Posted October 11, 2014 Who are you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted October 11, 2014 Share Posted October 11, 2014 Stefancos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KK 3,307 Posted October 11, 2014 Share Posted October 11, 2014 Who?Just read some of Marcus' posts here. The guy is a brilliant composer, but man, what he's written about Shore here...yikes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Not Mr. Big 4,639 Posted October 11, 2014 Share Posted October 11, 2014 I don't see what's so offensive about his posts or why it warrants a 3-paragraph rebuttal 8 years after the fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted October 11, 2014 Share Posted October 11, 2014 Brilliant?I always thought it was professional envy anyway.Unknown composer riling against established name etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KK 3,307 Posted October 11, 2014 Share Posted October 11, 2014 Marcus Paus is a great composer. I love his stuff.And it has nothing to do with "envy". It was his opinion on the matter (though he does have a tendency to put Williams on a pedestal rivalled by few). But it was a large generalization without much thought to support the argument. But as Sharky says, what he has to say on the matter has probably changed quite a bit over the years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcus 390 Posted October 11, 2014 Share Posted October 11, 2014 Well, that was terrifying! I detest the tone of those posts, but for what it's worth, I suspect they weren't intended to sound quite as harsh as they now seem to me.Confrontation with younger incarnations of one's self can be a very sobering experience... But at least it serves to remind one of the virtue of humility. Apologies, apologies... Sharkissimo and KK 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodBoal 7,538 Posted October 11, 2014 Share Posted October 11, 2014 To redeem yourself, you shall listen to all of Shore's scores next week! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcus 390 Posted October 11, 2014 Share Posted October 11, 2014 No! Have mercy! Have mercy!Seriously, though: I don't think I ever really meant to belittle any of Shore's efforts, and when one consider what much contemporary film music has become, the virtues of Shore's LotR scores become all the more apparent.I guess the title of this thread provoked a more-fiery-than-warranted response from me all those years ago, although I can't for the life of me understand why I got so worked up over it, or why I bothered. Times change, and thankfully, so do we. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KK 3,307 Posted October 11, 2014 Share Posted October 11, 2014 JWFan is merciless! You shall suffer its wrath!And then we'll go back to loving you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodBoal 7,538 Posted October 11, 2014 Share Posted October 11, 2014 No! Have mercy! Have mercy!If you want to avoid that sentence, then your only alternative is to send a free copy of your next soundtrack to each and every JWFAN member! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcus 390 Posted October 11, 2014 Share Posted October 11, 2014 Will happily do! Much to the horror and detriment of whatever poor record label that fate shall befall... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodBoal 7,538 Posted October 11, 2014 Share Posted October 11, 2014 OK, that's a deal! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KK 3,307 Posted October 11, 2014 Share Posted October 11, 2014 And make sure they're signed! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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