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Star Trek Discovery - Beware Spoilers!

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On 24/01/2018 at 8:16 PM, idril said:

It is a very strange choice to me, to make the only truly interesting/dynamic character that has caught on with fans (even those who dislike Discovery) into an all-out villain.

 

 

I doubt they "turned him" into a villain. I'd expect his character was conceived and written (for better or worse) that way from the start, or at least from a reasonably early pre-production stage.

On 29/01/2018 at 12:26 PM, Stefancos said:

Not a good episode, and one that ruins the Lorca character. I will miss Jason Isaacs on the show. I wont miss lorca.

 

Odd, I thought it was one of the best of the series so far. At least it clicked, the pacing seemed normal, and there were no 10 minutes of pointless CGI camera manoeuvres. The series still doesn't convince me, but it's closer than it's been for weeks.

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4 minutes ago, Marian Schedenig said:

 

 

I doubt they "turned him" into a villain. I'd expect his character was conceived and written (for better or worse) that way from the start, or at least from a reasonably early pre-production stage.

 

Whatever the plan was for the character, in terms of the story as the audience was experiencing it, he certainly was turned into a villain. And a rather one-dimensional one at that (whereas when Lorca was who we thought he was, the character was at least nuanced and existed in a kind of pale moonlight).

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I don't think Lorca was originally conceived as a moustache twirling Mirror Universe villain. 

 

Marian, you know Fuller better than I do, does that seem likely?

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Interesting info regarding Fuller's intentions.  Who knows if they'll stick with that or not...they may or may not.  I was hoping they'd spend a couple of more episodes in the Mirror Universe...that was a bit short lived and rather disappointing. 

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They ended up doing nothing really in the Mirror Universe. I liked the idea about trying the find the Defiant. But they didnt do anything with that. It's a let down.

 

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3 hours ago, Marian Schedenig said:

I doubt they "turned him" into a villain. I'd expect his character was conceived and written (for better or worse) that way from the start, or at least from a reasonably early pre-production stage.

Yeah sorry that's really just my turn of phrase - I don't mean to suggest they didn't plan it, just that it is a development of the character that is not in line with how he was initially represented.

 

I got spoiled on this death (not from here) so haven't actually seen the episode yet! Will watch it tonight and  make my assessment on whether this is a terrible or interesting development.......

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8 hours ago, Stefancos said:

I don't think Lorca was originally conceived as a moustache twirling Mirror Universe villain. 

 

Marian, you know Fuller better than I do, does that seem likely?

 

I wouldn't say I know him much. Pushing Daisies was years ago, and American Gods is entirely based on a novel (I still haven't seen Hannibal).

 

With all the pre-production chaos surrounding this series (about which most here probably know more details than I do), I would of course not be surprised if mirror Lorca was a comparatively late concept. But I'd still imagine that most of the final episode writing was done afterwards, so if it's to be considered poorly set up, that's more a problem of the long term writing and less one of sudden, poorly conceived twists.

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I think the beginning and end of the season will turn out to be quite properly set up. But there's a lot of stuff in the middle thats all over the place.

 

In a season about the Klingon war, why did they even go to the Mirror Universe. What does Lorca being Mirror actually have to do with the season arc?

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I enjoyed the episode in a surface level sort of way, but I too was disappointed what they did with Lorca. I had thought he was going to be revealed as a sort of semi-good yet still ambitious and ambiguous mirror universe character (kinda like mirror Spock). But instead he seemed hardly any different from Emperor Phillipa, so there weren't stakes for the outcome really. It would have been cool if he was revealed as mirror but then the twist was that he wanted to make the mirror universe more like the universe he had visited...and then, if they still wanted to kill him off, I would have felt something about it instead of a character and plot thread just...ended.

 

Also disappointed they (apparently?) killed off mirror Voq and Sarek -- there could have been a lot more interesting developments there. I was really intrigued by the possibilities of Klingons and other non-humans being the protagonists in the mirror universe.

 

Does anyone else feel like the Ash/Voq stuff is going to end up being some sort of awkward explanation for why Klingons don't look alien in TOS? When the admiral shows up at the end of the episode, the way she acts suspicious of the crew makes me thing the tech was used on many other Klingons to make them appear human. Maybe it becomes super widespread for infiltration purposes, and then these showrunners act like by TOS time, the Klingons just decided to keep their new look and speak English? :)

 

So by that logic, then sometime before TMP there's a Klingon political movement to go back to their roots, and somehow they grow the ridges back but hybridize it a little so they don't look like terrifying monsters? It's gonna be weird if they go for something like that but I just have a feeling...

 

Yavar

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On 31-1-2018 at 2:22 AM, Marian Schedenig said:

I guess that depends on whether the Klingon war is actually the season arc. I've given up trying to figure that out until it's over.

 

I think Fuller originally intended it as the season arc when it was 10 episodes. They shoved 5 more in so it's diluted.

9 hours ago, Yavar Moradi said:

Does anyone else feel like the Ash/Voq stuff is going to end up being some sort of awkward explanation for why Klingons don't look alien in TOS?

 

Star Trek Enterprise already adressed that a decade ago I think. 

There's no way they will be able to explain anyway why Klingons on that show looked like TND era Klingons, the Discovery ones looked like Remans from Star Trek Nemesis, the TOS Klingons looked like humans with bushy eyebrows and the movie and TNG era ones look like the ones from Enterprise.

 

Thankfully Vulcans always look the same. ;)

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They should have never even tried to explain the appearance of the Klingons.  No explanation was going to be satisfactory. As it is, we've had, what...six different portrayals of the Klingons now as far I can count? Maybe seven.

 

Better to just acknowledge that everyone knows bigger budgets & better effects produce different results. Star Trek asks us to suspend our disbelief for a lot of internal inconsistencies, I'm not sure why it was so important to try to explain it for the Klingons appearance.

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17 minutes ago, Nick1066 said:

They should have never even tried to explain the appearance of the Klingons.  No explanation was going to be satisfactory

 

"They are Klingons. It is a long story.......We do not discuss it with outsiders." Is all I ever needed.

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The War Without, The War Within.

 

Discovery reboots itself again, but does finally give us some actual world building regarding the Klingon War and the state of the Federation. Cornwell finally emerges as a character as her (slow) desperation of the possibility of total destruction of the Federation is felt through her. Burnham too is finally getting some focus as her regret and guilt has made her cynical. 

Tilly is great as the eternally optimistic "Federation ethos" who opposes Michael's point of view.

Doug Jones as Saru is proving to be a fine Star Trek actor, and Michelle Yeoh seems to relish playing evil.

 

Subtle as a brick, and occasionally cringeworthy. But it does have some weight to it. Great cliffhanger.

star-trek-discovery-season-1-episode-14-review-the-world-without-the-world-within.jpg

dsc-114-rev-head.jpg

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dsc-114-clip-head.jpg

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On 2/5/2018 at 9:13 AM, Stefancos said:

Doug Jones as Saru is proving to be a fine Star Trek actor

 

I was thinking the same. He gives the most "Trek" like performance of all the actors, and his character is most recognisable as uniquely Trek.

 

On 2/5/2018 at 9:13 AM, Stefancos said:

Great cliffhanger.

 

How many people does Emperor Georgiou have to kill or co-opt to truly take Captain Georgiou's place?  Most of the crew thinks she's the real deal. All they need to do is introduce Prime Lorca and the whole gang's back together.

 

On 2/5/2018 at 9:13 AM, Stefancos said:

Subtle as a brick

 

Indeed.

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I gotta wonder about the cliffhanger.
The crew of DSC has just spent time in the Mirror Universe. Weren't they briefed of the Empress of the Terran Empire being mirror Georgiou. And suddenly the long assumed dead Captain Georgiou takes command of the ship.

 

None of the crew it putting two and two together next week?

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On 05/02/2018 at 10:13 AM, Stefancos said:

Doug Jones as Saru is proving to be a fine Star Trek actor

 

 

He's been one of my favourite things about the show so far, yes.

 

My main problem with the latest episode: The repeatedly failed attempts to bring some depth to the Michael/Ash relationship, partly because they seem to have zero chemistry.

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What relationship? It's over. 

 

Tilly (and ridiculously) the rest of the crew seems to be very willing to embrace Ash Tyler again. Burnham doesnt. I like that. 

He hurt her, and lied. Yes he has an excuse, but it still happened. And I'm glad it's not something that just went away.

 

But yeah, no chemistry.

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Funny how Tom Paris and Ro Laren were basically treated like pariahs after their supposed transgressions, but Klingon sleeper spy boy tries to murder Burnham, kills the medical officer, betrays everyone and all's forgiven.

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It was an okay episode. I agree with Ash and Burnham being no chemistry between the two.  Yes also that Phillipa suddenly taking command and crew not putting it together.  Although I think SOME of the bridge officers knew and that's why they had stunned looks on their faces.  Perhaps the Admiral said the ship wide announcement so it would go on record that suddenly Philippa was alive and had been rescued.

 

There are definitely a lot of issues in story writing with this series.

 

BTW I seriously hate mid-seasons breaks.  We only had a few episodes after the mid-season break than suddenly at the season finale (this Sunday).  It's highly irritating... I missed the days when full seasons would play with out a mid-season break.

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2 hours ago, Stefancos said:

What did you think of the rest?

 

It's still hard to tell. There's stuff I like, and yet it's all full of holes, both plot wise and character motivation wise. It does seem to have lost most of the awkward editing/timing issues and pointless show off camera moves over the last two episodes or so.

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2 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

It doesn't feel like it at all, right?

 

My guess it they will end on a cliffhanger.

 

More than likely.  We had seasons in previous Trek incarnations which ended in a cliffhanger so I don't see this one being any different.

 

As I said I truly hate mid-season breaks these days with shows.

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Will You Take My Hand

 

If you humour it, and look past a lot of plot contrivances and are willing to see the sunny side of things, the season finale of Star Trek: Discovery work.

 

For a season that has felt extraordinary disjointed in both its narrative and tone the last 2 episodes are remarkably focused and on point. Tying together many of the threads it set up at various points if the season to a conclusion.

 

It also finally shifts away from the gone of grimdark it had for much of the season. 

 

The main problem is that a lot of the resolution feels rushed and dramatically a bit unsatisfactory. This is, I think, in part because of the many production problems rumoured to have plagued the first season. Bryan Fuller leaving, Nicholas Meyer too, several different people seemingly in charge of the show at different points in its production. Going from 10 to 15 episodes. So really not untill the last 2 episodes have they really started to paint a picture of the desperation of the Federation. In retrospect the Lorca shenanigans in the Mirror Universe seem to have shifted emphasis from things the show should have been working towards. 

 

The previous episode, The War Within, The War Without has do a massive amount of worldbuilding regarding the Klingon War because previous episodes hadn't really done it. 

 

But the war is over, in a surprisingly low key way. Which i rather liked. Star Trek occasionally has big space fights and epic battles. But its not it's mainstay. 

 

Burnham is redeemed, again this is something that hadnt been worked to much at all untill the last 2. But if you humour the show, it works. 

 

Lots of plot contrivances still though.

Georgiou as Captain of Discovery defies all belief. There's no reason for it plot wise. The Federation is desperate, yes. But in its desperation it could resort to genocide without putting Mirror Georgiou in charge of their most important asset if the war. 

Cornwell could have still been in charge of the ship during the mission, with Georgiou leading the mission. Making her Captain just made a good cliffhanger, thats all. 

 

Speaking of cliffhangers. USS Discovery meeting the USS Enterprise is certainly a good one.

 

 

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What did you think of the Enterprise? I was expecting much more drastic changes. I was also expecting it to be much smaller because Eaglemoss said that Discovery was 700+M to the Enterprise's 295m.

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No way Discovery is bigger than the Big E!

 

I like the Enterprise. It looks like a refit of the TOS rather than a new design like the Kelvin universe 1701.

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I'm sure they showed the Enterprise to show that Discovery is in the canon timeline. I just hope we see more of it as well as see Pike and maybe Spock and not just those few shots of the Enterprise.  I guess we'll find out in Season 2.

 

BTW I too like the new Enterprise.  Some of it reminds me of Gabriel Koerner's Enterprise design. I'm sure they did use some of it for this version.

heavycruiser_enterprise_proprefit.jpg

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So the whole Klingon Empire can be conquered and united by flashing an iPad? Someone in Starfleet should have lent Gowron one, would have avoided a lot of fuss.

 

Seeing the old Enterprise was of course nice, as was the classic music over the end credits. The Orion tent city was well realised also. Otherwise, not very good in so, so many ways.  This show works while you're watching it, but doesn't stand even a moments scrutiny. If you think about it, even for a second, it all falls apart.

 

Now that the production team is set and they've gotten through the first season, hopefully they'll figure out what this show is about.  And hopefully that will involve more than Michael Burnham being the moral centre of the universe.

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23 minutes ago, Nick1066 said:

This show works while you're watching it, but doesn't stand even a moments scrutiny. If you think about it, even for a second, it all falls apart.

 

This! Exactly this!

 

And it's not what I'm used to from Star Trek.

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So someone on the Starship Modeler Facebook page removed the blue hue to better show the Enterprise.  I DEFINITELY like how she looks now that you can see the detail better.  I seriously wished that the Enterprise in the J.J. Abram films looked like this or close to it.

 

05.jpg04.jpg03.jpg02.jpg01.jpg

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On 12/02/2018 at 2:16 PM, Stefancos said:

For a season that has felt extraordinary disjointed in both its narrative and tone the last 2 episodes are remarkably focused and on point. Tying together many of the threads it set up at various points if the season to a conclusion.

 

I had that feeling with the previous two episodes, but the finale seemed to be a small step back into some of the uneven and oddly timed stuff of the earlier episodes. And little of it is actually convincing. The Klingons sure give up a war easily, even though they can't even agree with each other. And what about all the Federation territory they've conquered already? The Georgiou plot turned out to be pretty pointless as well, being nothing more than a blunt vehicle for Burnham to defy Starfleet orders.

 

On 12/02/2018 at 2:16 PM, Stefancos said:

Speaking of cliffhangers. USS Discovery meeting the USS Enterprise is certainly a good one.

 

It could have been, but I thought it was, again, poorly done, with more self-indulgence than the show has earned, especially since it cuts off right after the big reveal. (The Enterprise looked great though - the first good-looking design in the series).

 

Ultimately, STD probably has potential. Hopefully, the second season can make more use of it.

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The Klingons give up the war because L'Rell basically has a nuke pointed at them. I'm not sure what kinda message about peace that is supposed to suggest.

 

The final episode wraps up all the loose ends in a way thats that is both tidy, and unsatisfactory. It really doesn't feel earned.

 

Sarek of Vulcan is complicit in an attempted genocide....

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37 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

The Klingons give up the war because L'Rell basically has a nuke pointed at them. I'm not sure what kinda message about peace that is supposed to suggest.

 

 

Not really a trustworthy precondition for stable, long-term peace, either.

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Yep. And even once you get past the technobabble, it just didn't make much sense, even setting aside the absurdity that dozens of Klingon houses would pay attention to a hated Klingon...a woman, no less...because she's waving around a pad. 

 

So it's goes contrary to Federation ideals not to destroy an enemy hell bent to destroy you. OK, I get that. So the solution is, what, give the one member of that enemy's race you do know, who happens to be a religious fanatic, the trigger to a genocidal weapon of mass destruction so she can take over?  THAT's what the Federation stands for? To say nothing of the fact that there was no reason for Burnham  to trust L'Rell...again, a torturer and religious fanatic who said many times she wants to see all of humanity destroyed.

 

My hope at this point is that Discovery is destroyed and they all transfer aboard the Enterprise and the show becomes about Captain Pike!

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Some interesting conjecture about DSC and how well its actually doing.

 

 

Not surprised loads of people cancelled their subscription though, once Discovery was finished. I'm told most of the other content CBS offers is mediocre at best.

 

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Well if they keep doing things like “resolving” the entire arc of the season in a 10 minute speech after spending literally hours playing in the mirror universe (which don’t get me wrong was a blast) I’d be killing my subscription too. 

 

Doesn’t matter how great the visuals and some characters are if they are going to blow all the tension in completely in satisfying ways. 

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But why would you keep your subscription even if DSC would have been first rate?

 

If the rest of the programs on offer by CBS All Access arent interesting (which I'm told it is the case) and the app blows?

You need to have a lot of stuff to offer to keep subscribers hanging on, that's why Netflix is pouring countless millions into buying or creating content right now. 

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