Busting the Star Wars Myths

[Ludwig 1,179]

I just recently purchased a copy of the book The Making of Star Wars, and it gives evidence that busts, or at least seriously questions, some of the persistent beliefs about the soundtrack to the original Star Wars film. And yet, at the same time, the detail isn't quite enough to completely wipe out these beliefs are pure myths. Not quite. Here are three that certainly deserve discussion here, amongst we JWFans.

1) The conversation in which Williams supposedly convinced Lucas to use an original score rather than a compilation of classical works a la 2001: A Space Odyssey. This one is especially suspicious. On p. 99, the book's author J.W. Rinzler quotes Lucas saying

I really knew the kind of sound I wanted. I knew I wanted an old-fashioned, romantic movie score, and I knew he was very good with large orchestras.

Rinzler also says that when Lucas was dropping in regularly on post-production of Jaws,

unusually for most directors, but standard to Lucas, he had already been thinking about the soundtrack for The Star Wars, and was leaning toward a classical, romantic one. Spielberg suggested the fellow who had just finished composing the soundtrack for Jaws; Lucas got to hear some of it and was impressed.

So it seems that Lucas was never interested in a compilation score. That said, Audissino in his new book on Williams on p. 71 claims that

[Lucas] resolved that [Star Wars] should have an extensive musical coverage and, according to various sources, planned to have the music track made of preexisting symphonic selections, or at least to use preexisting themes arranged as leitmotivs for the film.

He backs this up with several sources in a footnote, as he says. But in that same footnote, he says

But on the other hand, when interviewed by Leonard Maltin, Lucas said that he had always had the idea of having an original score--The Empire Strikes Back, VHS, Fox, 1995. However, 2001 was an influential model and Lucas had already used a compilation score for American Graffiti; in the liner notes for the 1977 album Williams wrote that Lucas originally wanted repertoire music, and Lucas, being the album producer, accepted at that time Williams's statement as true. So, it seems quite probable that Lucas's original idea was to use repertoire music as the film's main themes. [boldface added]

While I greatly admire Audissino's book, on this point, I'd respectfully disagree. It's not impossible that Lucas is rewriting history by changing what he originally said, but considering his very early search for a composer who could write in a more classical manner, it seems very unlikely. As for the conversation between Williams and Lucas that supposedly changed the latter's mind, here is what Williams said (quoted on p. 265 of The Making of Star Wars:

I didn't want to hear a piece of Dvořák here, a piece of Tchaikovsky there. What I wanted to hear was something to do with Ben Kenobi more developed here, something to do with his death over there. What we needed were themes or our own, which one could put through all the permutations of a dramatic situation. This was my discussion and my dialogue with George--that I felt we needed our own themes, which could be made into a solid dramaturgical glue from start to finish. To whatever extent we have succeeded, that is what I tried to do.

Though this may seem to confirm that Lucas wanted a compilation and Williams talked him out of it, there is another possibility for interpreting this conversation that no one ever mentions. It's true that Lucas had a temp track made up largely of several classical pieces that he selected himself. That's beyond dispute. But it's possible, and to my mind very likely, that what he instead had in mind was an original score that drew heavily on these classical works--even more heavily than in the final film, to the extent that the themes would be recognizable as classically-based recompositions rather than new themes altogether. That would be a sort of combination of existing and original music, a grey area that, as I say, no one has considered.

That would fit the facts far better than saying that Lucas simply wanted a 2001-like compilation score. Why else would he be looking for a classically-trained film composer so well before any of the film was made? Why else would he say that he always had an original score in mind? And the combination-type score I mention would also not make total nonsense of Williams' conversation with Lucas. Everything just fits better from that angle.

2) The contents of the temp track.

Yes, it has been discussed here before, but it's been confusing to sort out what was, was not, and was likely or likely not, on that temp track. The Making of Star Wars clearly states that the temp track included Rózsa's Ivanhoe for the main title, Benny Goodman for the cantina band, Liszt's Les Préludes for the jail break scene, and Bruckner's Ninth Symphony for Luke's theme. I had heard of the first two of these before, but had never seen it confirmed anywhere. And the last two are brand new for me. Interesting that the main title and Luke's theme were considered different pieces of music in the temp track. In any case, the Luke's theme's resemblance to Korngold's Kings Row seems not due to the temp track.

3) The Psycho motif. Paul Hirsch, a film editor on Star Wars, added the famous three-note motif from Herrmann's Psycho where the rebels pop out of a secret hatch on the Millennium Falcon. Yes, we all know this motif is still there, but I did not know it was on the temp track before. So it wasn't some kind of challenge put to Williams by others to somehow include that motif, it was always there on the temp track.

Discuss!

[Little Ghost 7,927]

2) The contents of the temp track.

Yes, it has been discussed here before, but it's been confusing to sort out what was, was not, and was likely or likely not, on that temp track. The Making of Star Wars clearly states that

I've just recently purchased a copy of the book The Making of Star Wars, and it gives evidence that busts, or at least seriously questions, some of the persistent beliefs about the soundtrack to the original Star Wars film. And yet, at the same time, the detail isn't quite enough to completely wipe out these beliefs are pure myths. Not quite. Here are three that certainly deserve discussion here, amongst we JWFans.

Discuss!

I assume this is a case of bad copy-paste?

[Ludwig 1,179]

2) The contents of the temp track.

Yes, it has been discussed here before, but it's been confusing to sort out what was, was not, and was likely or likely not, on that temp track. The Making of Star Wars clearly states that

I've just recently purchased a copy of the book The Making of Star Wars, and it gives evidence that busts, or at least seriously questions, some of the persistent beliefs about the soundtrack to the original Star Wars film. And yet, at the same time, the detail isn't quite enough to completely wipe out these beliefs are pure myths. Not quite. Here are three that certainly deserve discussion here, amongst we JWFans.

Discuss!

Bad copy-paste?

Haha, no. The pieces I mention are stated as being on the temp track, but at the same time, it's not specific as to which portions of those pieces were used, nor is it a complete listing. Liszt's Les Préludes, for example, is a 15-minute work. Hard to know what portion of it was used, even if the book clearly states it was used in some capacity.

[Hlao-roo 390]

2) The contents of the temp track.

Yes, it has been discussed here before, but it's been confusing to sort out what was, was not, and was likely or likely not, on that temp track. The Making of Star Wars clearly states that

I've just recently purchased a copy of the book The Making of Star Wars, and it gives evidence that busts, or at least seriously questions, some of the persistent beliefs about the soundtrack to the original Star Wars film. And yet, at the same time, the detail isn't quite enough to completely wipe out these beliefs are pure myths. Not quite. Here are three that certainly deserve discussion here, amongst we JWFans.

Discuss!

Bad copy-paste?

Haha, no. The pieces I mention are stated as being on the temp track, but at the same time, it's not specific as to which portions of those pieces were used, nor is it a complete listing. Liszt's Les Préludes, for example, is a 15-minute work. Hard to know what portion of it was used, even if the book clearly states it was used in some capacity.

You might want to revisit the excerpt Faleel was quoting.

[Little Ghost 7,927]

You misunderstand, I mean, The Making of star wars clearly states that you have recently purchased a copy of the book The Making of Star Wars?

[Ludwig 1,179]

The Making of star wars clearly states that you have recently purchased a copy of the book The Making of Star Wars?

Oh, your bad copy-paste. Sorry, your sense of humour's clearly light years ahead of mine.

[Jay 42,771]

Faleel is pointing out that under Point 2 in your original post, you repeat your opening paragraph instead of saying what you wanted to say about the temp track.

[Little Ghost 7,927]

Huh? I only quoted what was in the OP

[Sharkissimo 1,976]

Faleel is trying to gaslight Ludwig.

[Jay 42,771]

No. I explained what's going on. I dunno why Faleel couldn't originally explain it as succinctly as I did.

[Ludwig 1,179]

Doubly my bad. Ok let me say what I actually had down that for some strange reason got cut out.

Ok, the OP's been corrected. Thanks Faleel for pointing this out.

[Tom 5,685]

I don't know how the myth holding that Williams convinced Lucas to have an original score even got started. If Williams was talking to Lucas in the first place, then it would already have been decided to have an original score. You do not hire a double Oscar winning composer to "pick" classical pieces, particularly when you are already over budget.

[Ludwig 1,179]

I don't know how the myth holding that Williams convinced Lucas to have an original score even got started. If Williams was talking to Lucas in the first place, then it would already have been decided to have an original score. You do not hire a double Oscar winning composer to "pick" classical pieces, particularly when you are already over budget.

Well, exactly. That's why the idea's never held water. But Williams himself has said otherwise in writing. I just think there must have been a mix-up somewhere along the line, like a game of broken telephone.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 11,007]

The famous E.T. myth about Steven Spielberg editing the final part of E.T. to JW's cues sadly isnt true either.

[A24 4,836]

Even though Lucas has been influenced by 2001: ASO, he never intended to make a film in the same vein as Kubrick's film because he knew he could never top it. That's why he opted for a Flash Gordon-ish space opera for a Saturday matinee thingy.

I do think Williams' score for Star Wars sounds suspiciously classical (Stravinsky, Holst, ....)

Alex

[Ludwig 1,179]

The famous E.T. myth about Steven Spielberg editing the final part of E.T. to JW's cues sadly isnt true either.

You're joking. Williams verbally says otherwise in the DVD extra for the film. How could it be a myth?

[Sharkissimo 1,976]

The famous E.T. myth about Steven Spielberg editing the final part of E.T. to JW's cues sadly isnt true either.

You're joking. Williams verbally says otherwise in the DVD extra for the film. How could it be a myth?

Never take anything Stef says seriously.

[Ludwig 1,179]

I do think Williams' score for Star Wars sounds suspiciously classical (Stravinsky, Holst, ....)

I'd agree. That, though, must surely be Lucas' vision coming through. Rinzler (the author of The Making of Star Wars) notes that Lucas was the one responsible for just about all the choices on the temp track. And then there's that conversation again that Williams mentions between himself and Lucas. If we've established that Lucas was never after a compilation score (which I think is all but confirmed), then he must have wanted something in between, like the several classical allusions in the score, but probably used in a more thoroughgoing manner, including the leitmotivic themes. That's probably what Williams swayed Lucas away from.

It's a situation that I could see being misinterpreted as Lucas wanting a compilation score because it's pretty close to that idea. And I'd bet that's where the myth came from.

[tedfud 39]

it's a strange mixture to be sure. I suspect ( given the time period of the seventies and the current sound of film scores ) Lucas was probably much clearer on what he DIDN'T want ! . So he gravitated to what he considered 'timeless" music and raided the classics. Including the rite of spring . I wouldn't be a bit surprised if williams ( knowledgable charmer that he is ) managed to sell Lucas on the idea of those sorts of harmonies and orchestral colours all tied up in a bit of Wagnerian story telling . It's obvious Williams really enjoyed himself and he is on record for thinking the whole thing was a bit of a kids picture. He was rather surprised it was such a smash . To me it sounds like he really upped his game on Empire and Jedi.....not that Star wars isn't fantastic . But i find it much more disjointed, and referencial. I can really spot the influences..even with " the dune sea" having the same chords.....I think he focused a lot more on telling the story in his own way from the next instalment . And when you get to "Emperor's throne room" and "The Death Of Vader" i think he's on fire.....completely free of the constraints I suspect he felt on "star wars"....he had , in effect, come up with the language ....

e

[oierem 204]

The famous E.T. myth about Steven Spielberg editing the final part of E.T. to JW's cues sadly isnt true either.

You're joking. Williams verbally says otherwise in the DVD extra for the film. How could it be a myth?

Because they would never try to record a 15 minute piece of music (which is not composed as a single cue). Why would they be recording the chase AND the goodbye scenes continuously (which is what Williams says) when they are different scenes and different cues?

[Ludwig 1,179]

The famous E.T. myth about Steven Spielberg editing the final part of E.T. to JW's cues sadly isnt true either.

You're joking. Williams verbally says otherwise in the DVD extra for the film. How could it be a myth?

Because they would never try to record a 15 minute piece of music (which is not composed as a single cue). Why would they be recording the chase AND the goodbye scenes continuously (which is what Williams says) when they are different scenes and different cues?

Then what on earth was Williams talking about?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 11,007]

The famous E.T. myth about Steven Spielberg editing the final part of E.T. to JW's cues sadly isnt true either.

You're joking. Williams verbally says otherwise in the DVD extra for the film. How could it be a myth?

Never take anything Stef says seriously.

Because the film version of "Escape, Chase, Saying Goodbye" consists of several takes edited together and at least 3 inserts.

Now I'm sure JW recorded a take of this music without the film running. But the story that Spielberg re-edited his film to fit that take doesn't seem to hold much water.

[Sharkissimo 1,976]

The famous E.T. myth about Steven Spielberg editing the final part of E.T. to JW's cues sadly isnt true either.

You're joking. Williams verbally says otherwise in the DVD extra for the film. How could it be a myth?

Never take anything Stef says seriously.

Because the film version of "Escape, Chase, Saying Goodbye" consists of several takes edited together and at least 3 inserts.

Now I'm sure JW recorded a take of this music without the film running. But the story that Spielberg re-edited his film to fit that take doesn't seem to hold much water.

Yes, I'm pretty sure Williams's anecdote refers to 11m4-12m1 The Departure.

[Ludwig 1,179]

The famous E.T. myth about Steven Spielberg editing the final part of E.T. to JW's cues sadly isnt true either.

You're joking. Williams verbally says otherwise in the DVD extra for the film. How could it be a myth?

Never take anything Stef says seriously.

Because the film version of "Escape, Chase, Saying Goodbye" consists of several takes edited together and at least 3 inserts.

Now I'm sure JW recorded a take of this music without the film running. But the story that Spielberg re-edited his film to fit that take doesn't seem to hold much water.

Yes, I'm pretty sure Williams's anecdote refers to 11m4-12m1 The Departure.

Another case of broken telephone.

it's a strange mixture to be sure. I suspect ( given the time period of the seventies and the current sound of film scores ) Lucas was probably much clearer on what he DIDN'T want ! . So he gravitated to what he considered 'timeless" music and raided the classics. Including the rite of spring . I wouldn't be a bit surprised if williams ( knowledgable charmer that he is ) managed to sell Lucas on the idea of those sorts of harmonies and orchestral colours all tied up in a bit of Wagnerian story telling.

That still sounds like more of a legend to me than something that fits the facts really well. Here's a quote from Lucas in The Making of Star Wars:

We wanted a very Max Steiner-type of romantic movie score. There were a lot of little discussion about if this or that would make it go too far, would it be too much? I decided just to do it all the way down the line, one end to the other, complete. Everything is on that same level, which is sort of old-fashioned and fun, but going for the most dramatic and emotional elements that I could get.

Sounds to me like he knew what he wanted all along, Williams just swayed him a little more in the original theme direction.

[Jay 42,771]

It's completely believable to me that some portion of the finale could have been re-edited to a particularly good take of a cue within that segment that had been recorded with the picture turned off. But not the entire 15 minutes. No way.

[karelm 3,209]

It's completely believable to me that some portion of the finale could have been re-rdited to a particularly good take of a cue within that segment. But not the entire 15 minutes. No way.

I think the reality is that there were some sections that could have fit the visuals but would have been musically awkward. Spielberg basically adjusted the visuals to fit those specific moments where the music was substantially rewarding from a listening perspective. This is uncommon but does happen. Basically, there is a partnership in various creative rolls - composer and director in this example. This doesn't mean that Spielberg waited for the music to edit the scene nor does it mean that the majority of the music did not fit the scenery...rather there were just a few select moments where the music dictated the film editing. I am certain JW could have score the scene perfectly, but the issue was that the music justified needing more space than the film editing allotted. Spielberg was wise enough to agree.

[nightscape94 967]

The broad explanation of "we fit the movie to the music" is a bit easier for the average Joe watching at home to understand. That one insert is as clear as day, right before the horn solo leading into the "I'll be right here" moment. We all know that it's not one long unbroken 15 minute take to what is shown on screen.

Maybe Williams recorded his useable take to a different edit of the film, and then Spielberg finagled it a bit after he realized the film didn't quite work at that point, then forcing Williams to record inserts, or splice together different takes.

[Ludwig 1,179]

Maybe Williams recorded his useable take to a different edit of the film, and then Spielberg finagled it a bit after he realized the film didn't quite work at that point, then forcing Williams to record inserts, or splice together different takes.

Sounds right about the inserts and splices, but recorded to a different edit of the film would contradict Williams' anecdote. Jay's explanation sounds credible to me - a segment within a larger cue was likely recorded without picture and the picture edited to that.

[oierem 204]

Maybe Williams recorded his useable take to a different edit of the film, and then Spielberg finagled it a bit after he realized the film didn't quite work at that point, then forcing Williams to record inserts, or splice together different takes.

Sounds right about the inserts and splices, but recorded to a different edit of the film would contradict Williams' anecdote. Jay's explanation sounds credible to me - a segment within a larger cue was likely recorded without picture and the picture edited to that.

Exactly. But don't forget Williams has often said that he recorded the entire 15 minute piece on one take without the movie because it was too difficult to get it right (ironically, he has conducted the score on a live projection without any problems!), and he specificaly describes the chase, the goodbye scene and the departure of the ship, which is obviosuly not accurate.

People tend to misremember things, people tend to embelish their stories to make them sound more interesting, and sometimes people end up believing their "alternate" story. Williams is no different.

Btw, I always believed that the cue that was re-edited to fit the music was the chase, since it seems more difficult to get it right, but maybe it was the Departure scene (which seems more natural musically)?

[tedfud 39]

The famous E.T. myth about Steven Spielberg editing the final part of E.T. to JW's cues sadly isnt true either.

You're joking. Williams verbally says otherwise in the DVD extra for the film. How could it be a myth?

Never take anything Stef says seriously.

Because the film version of "Escape, Chase, Saying Goodbye" consists of several takes edited together and at least 3 inserts.

Now I'm sure JW recorded a take of this music without the film running. But the story that Spielberg re-edited his film to fit that take doesn't seem to hold much water.

Yes, I'm pretty sure Williams's anecdote refers to 11m4-12m1 The Departure.

Another case of broken telephone.

it's a strange mixture to be sure. I suspect ( given the time period of the seventies and the current sound of film scores ) Lucas was probably much clearer on what he DIDN'T want ! . So he gravitated to what he considered 'timeless" music and raided the classics. Including the rite of spring . I wouldn't be a bit surprised if williams ( knowledgable charmer that he is ) managed to sell Lucas on the idea of those sorts of harmonies and orchestral colours all tied up in a bit of Wagnerian story telling.

That still sounds like more of a legend to me than something that fits the facts really well. Here's a quote from Lucas in The Making of Star Wars:

We wanted a very Max Steiner-type of romantic movie score. There were a lot of little discussion about if this or that would make it go too far, would it be too much? I decided just to do it all the way down the line, one end to the other, complete. Everything is on that same level, which is sort of old-fashioned and fun, but going for the most dramatic and emotional elements that I could get.

Sounds to me like he knew what he wanted all along, Williams just swayed him a little more in the original theme direction.

yes he is on record saying he wanted a 40's type score....but i don't think that's what he got. Aside from the more obvious Korngold moments i think williams took it a lot further . But your right, Lucas does seem to have a clear idea of what he wanted....my error.

t

[Director of Poltergeist 8,171]

The story about the better composers for Schindler's List all being dead, sadly, also isn't true.

[Sharkissimo 1,976]

The famous E.T. myth about Steven Spielberg editing the final part of E.T. to JW's cues sadly isnt true either.

You're joking. Williams verbally says otherwise in the DVD extra for the film. How could it be a myth?

Never take anything Stef says seriously.

Because the film version of "Escape, Chase, Saying Goodbye" consists of several takes edited together and at least 3 inserts.

Now I'm sure JW recorded a take of this music without the film running. But the story that Spielberg re-edited his film to fit that take doesn't seem to hold much water.

Yes, I'm pretty sure Williams's anecdote refers to 11m4-12m1 The Departure.

Another case of broken telephone.

it's a strange mixture to be sure. I suspect ( given the time period of the seventies and the current sound of film scores ) Lucas was probably much clearer on what he DIDN'T want ! . So he gravitated to what he considered 'timeless" music and raided the classics. Including the rite of spring . I wouldn't be a bit surprised if williams ( knowledgable charmer that he is ) managed to sell Lucas on the idea of those sorts of harmonies and orchestral colours all tied up in a bit of Wagnerian story telling.

That still sounds like more of a legend to me than something that fits the facts really well. Here's a quote from Lucas in The Making of Star Wars:

We wanted a very Max Steiner-type of romantic movie score. There were a lot of little discussion about if this or that would make it go too far, would it be too much? I decided just to do it all the way down the line, one end to the other, complete. Everything is on that same level, which is sort of old-fashioned and fun, but going for the most dramatic and emotional elements that I could get.

Sounds to me like he knew what he wanted all along, Williams just swayed him a little more in the original theme direction.

yes he is on record saying he wanted a 40's type score....but i don't think that's what he got. Aside from the more obvious Korngold moments i think williams took it a lot further . But your right, Lucas does seem to have a clear idea of what he wanted....my error.

t

I agree. I always thought Herrmann came through much stronger as an influence. There dozens of bits that could easily have come from one of his Harryhausen scores.

This cue above all.

[Ludwig 1,179]

yes he is on record saying he wanted a 40's type score....but i don't think that's what he got. Aside from the more obvious Korngold moments i think williams took it a lot further .

Great point. And here is yet another myth about Star Wars that persists to this day - that the score is a "classical Hollywood" 1940s-type score. I agree that it's not. It certainly draws on that era and uses it as a basis for the score with obvious things like the full orchestral scoring and the use of themes as leitmotifs, which had long gone out of fashion by the late 70s. But Star Wars is a score based primarily on three musical techniques: polytonality, parallelism, and pedal point. For that reason, I don't consider Williams to have begun a "return" to classical Hollywood techniques, but rather a modernization of them.

[tedfud 39]

The famous E.T. myth about Steven Spielberg editing the final part of E.T. to JW's cues sadly isnt true either.

You're joking. Williams verbally says otherwise in the DVD extra for the film. How could it be a myth?

Never take anything Stef says seriously.

Because the film version of "Escape, Chase, Saying Goodbye" consists of several takes edited together and at least 3 inserts.

Now I'm sure JW recorded a take of this music without the film running. But the story that Spielberg re-edited his film to fit that take doesn't seem to hold much water.

Yes, I'm pretty sure Williams's anecdote refers to 11m4-12m1 The Departure.

Another case of broken telephone.

it's a strange mixture to be sure. I suspect ( given the time period of the seventies and the current sound of film scores ) Lucas was probably much clearer on what he DIDN'T want ! . So he gravitated to what he considered 'timeless" music and raided the classics. Including the rite of spring . I wouldn't be a bit surprised if williams ( knowledgable charmer that he is ) managed to sell Lucas on the idea of those sorts of harmonies and orchestral colours all tied up in a bit of Wagnerian story telling.

That still sounds like more of a legend to me than something that fits the facts really well. Here's a quote from Lucas in The Making of Star Wars:

We wanted a very Max Steiner-type of romantic movie score. There were a lot of little discussion about if this or that would make it go too far, would it be too much? I decided just to do it all the way down the line, one end to the other, complete. Everything is on that same level, which is sort of old-fashioned and fun, but going for the most dramatic and emotional elements that I could get.

Sounds to me like he knew what he wanted all along, Williams just swayed him a little more in the original theme direction.

yes he is on record saying he wanted a 40's type score....but i don't think that's what he got. Aside from the more obvious Korngold moments i think williams took it a lot further . But your right, Lucas does seem to have a clear idea of what he wanted....my error.

t

I agree. I always thought Herrmann came through much stronger as an influence. There dozens of bits that could easily have come from one of his Harryhausen scores.

This cue above all.

wow.....

sounds like the crab in mysterious island or something .....

t

yes he is on record saying he wanted a 40's type score....but i don't think that's what he got. Aside from the more obvious Korngold moments i think williams took it a lot further .

But Star Wars is a score based primarily on three musical techniques: polytonality, parallelism, and pedal point. For that reason, I don't consider Williams to have begun a "return" to classical Hollywood techniques, but rather a modernization of them.

Actually maybe there IS 40's melodrama. 30 secs in

sounds like "gone with the wind"...i'm sure that rising , fast chord progression is a staple golden era technique. Mr shark's cue got me thinking THIS really is a very varied score.....

t

[Ludwig 1,179]

yes he is on record saying he wanted a 40's type score....but i don't think that's what he got. Aside from the more obvious Korngold moments i think williams took it a lot further .

But Star Wars is a score based primarily on three musical techniques: polytonality, parallelism, and pedal point. For that reason, I don't consider Williams to have begun a "return" to classical Hollywood techniques, but rather a modernization of them.

are there any examples of pitch set's ?

t

I suppose you could call the Holst chords pitch sets, the one in the Rebel Blockade being a (0157) and the one before the Death Star explosion being a (0146). But these are in short supply in the score. Most of the score is composed of the techniques I mention above.

You asked about Persichetti. I may be wrong, but it seems his is still the most wide ranging text on these sorts of techniques. If you look at just about any textbook on 20th-century music, you'll find it prioritizes set theory and 12-tone music over everything else. A shame, really, because there's so much more to 20th-century music than just that. It's probably like this because these latter techniques can be taught in a formal, systematized way that allows "right" and "wrong" answers to be clearly distinguished. Unlike the many discussions we've had on this forum about the techniques we're seeing in Williams.

[Sharkissimo 1,976]

Re: tedfud's pitch sets post, the only two moments remotely approaching atonality are these. The first one's almost PLANET OF THE APES-esque

:38 onwards

2:17 to the end

Also Ludwig, could help decipher these two passages?

After the opening Abm chord, there's a curious oscillating pattern for flutes, clarinets and celeste. I can hear D-F-D-F in the highest voice, but I can't quite make out the others. Maybe G-F#-G-F# etc.?

3:35. Almost TWILIGHT ZONEish.

[Ludwig 1,179]

Re: tedfud's pitch sets post, the only two moments remotely approaching atonality are these. The first one's almost PLANET OF THE APES-esque

:38 onwards

2:17 to the end

Also Ludwig, could help decipher these two passages?

After the opening Abm chord, there's a curious oscillating pattern for flutes, clarinets and celeste. I can hear D-F-D-F in the highest voice, but I can't quite make out the others. Maybe G-F#-G-F# etc.?

3:35. Almost TWILIGHT ZONEish.

Funny, I was going to ask you about the atonal chords in the first two cues you posted! Could you have a go at them? I'll try the last two.

As for the last two, in the first one, there's the F-D you mention, and underneath that, a wavering C-B, and the celeste has a wavering Eb-D in parallel sixths with the C-B. Then there's the violin's high G, the horn's A, and the low string F#.

It strikes me as polytonal more than anything else because the first chord seems to be a sort of appoggiatura chord resolving to the G major triad in the upper parts while the lower parts clash against it with F#-A. But that first chord is hard to describe with a name, maybe because it has a function of resolving to the clear triad in the second chord.

The second cue is a toughie. After the Death Star motif, there's a lingering mass of sound that makes it hard to hear the chord underneath. There's definitely a high tremolo C in the strings, then a Bb-A emerges to begin a new line, but there's something else there too. Is it Bnatural-C? Sounds clustery to me at first then quickly clears up and gives way to parallel minor 3rds while the tremolo continues. What do you say?

[karelm 3,209]

The second cue is a toughie. After the Death Star motif, there's a lingering mass of sound that makes it hard to hear the chord underneath. There's definitely a high tremolo C in the strings, then a Bb-A emerges to begin a new line, but there's something else there too. Is it Bnatural-C? Sounds clustery to me at first then quickly clears up and gives way to parallel minor 3rds while the tremolo continues. What do you say?

Is it the fourth cue you are referring to instead of the second cue? Because it has the death start motif and the tremelo violin.

[Ludwig 1,179]

The second cue is a toughie. After the Death Star motif, there's a lingering mass of sound that makes it hard to hear the chord underneath. There's definitely a high tremolo C in the strings, then a Bb-A emerges to begin a new line, but there's something else there too. Is it Bnatural-C? Sounds clustery to me at first then quickly clears up and gives way to parallel minor 3rds while the tremolo continues. What do you say?

Is it the fourth cue you are referring to instead of the second cue? Because it has the death start motif and the tremelo violin.

Yes, the second of the last two. Sorry, that was confusing.

[skyy38 21]

I don't know how the myth holding that Williams convinced Lucas to have an original score even got started. If Williams was talking to Lucas in the first place, then it would already have been decided to have an original score. You do not hire a double Oscar winning composer to "pick" classical pieces, particularly when you are already over budget.

No, you don't do that, because in December of 1975, Lucas and Williams were just bouncing ideas and concepts back and forth about how the music for Star Wars should be approached, which (presumably) included discussions about which temp tracks should be used. Williams was NOT hired yet during this time and he still had Black Sunday to tend to. In January 1977, Williams saw a second cut of the film and then spent two months working on the score.

[Naïve Old Fart 11,751]

He also had "Family Plot", "Midway", and "The Missouri Breaks" to tend to, plus completing his violin concerto. He was, I guess, simultaneously working on "CE3K" and "Star Wars".

My question is: when was JW officially contracted to write the score for "Star Wars"?

[Sharkissimo 1,976]

Re: tedfud's pitch sets post, the only two moments remotely approaching atonality are these. The first one's almost PLANET OF THE APES-esque

:38 onwards

2:17 to the end

Also Ludwig, could help decipher these two passages?

After the opening Abm chord, there's a curious oscillating pattern for flutes, clarinets and celeste. I can hear D-F-D-F in the highest voice, but I can't quite make out the others. Maybe G-F#-G-F# etc.?

3:35. Almost TWILIGHT ZONEish.

Funny, I was going to ask you about the atonal chords in the first two cues you posted! Could you have a go at them?

Ok, I'm going to make it easier for myself and just choose one chord from the first video.

The sonority at 0:43 is almost certainly an open cluster. I hear G3 and A3 along with Ab5 in the strings. The flutter-tonguing muted horns just before might be playing Ab4-Bb4, but there's definitely a Bb there.

Wait till tomorrow for the riveting second part...

The second cue is a toughie. After the Death Star motif, there's a lingering mass of sound that makes it hard to hear the chord underneath. There's definitely a high tremolo C in the strings, then a Bb-A emerges to begin a new line, but there's something else there too. Is it Bnatural-C? Sounds clustery to me at first then quickly clears up and gives way to parallel minor 3rds while the tremolo continues. What do you say?

This is my attempt at transcribing it, excluding the sustained Cs (Violin II tremolo C5 tremolo and Violin I harmonics 16va):

http://www.noteflight.com/scores/view/b1cacc77a3dd962dd8f54e79414954109cfc616e

You've got a contrapuntal line moving in contrary motion in m. 1, which then changes to parallel motion in the following measures - minor then major 6ths. The outline of the melody could be divided into two tetrachords ([0,1,5,6] and [0,1,4,7]), and one trichord - [0,3,6). The last of these is a diminished triad, and fits naturally into an octatonic collection.

It's also worth mentioning that the sustain of the vibraphone is likely causing some extra dissonance here.

[skyy38 21]

The famous E.T. myth about Steven Spielberg editing the final part of E.T. to JW's cues sadly isnt true either.

You're joking. Williams verbally says otherwise in the DVD extra for the film. How could it be a myth?

Somewhere I have an Evening At The Pops tape which I believe Spielberg himself corroborates with Williams on how that sequence went down.I'll have to check though.

The famous E.T. myth about Steven Spielberg editing the final part of E.T. to JW's cues sadly isnt true either.

You're joking. Williams verbally says otherwise in the DVD extra for the film. How could it be a myth?

Because they would never try to record a 15 minute piece of music (which is not composed as a single cue). Why would they be recording the chase AND the goodbye scenes continuously (which is what Williams says) when they are different scenes and different cues?

AND different tempos......

It's completely believable to me that some portion of the finale could have been re-edited to a particularly good take of a cue within that segment that had been recorded with the picture turned off. But not the entire 15 minutes. No way.

No, not the ENTIRE 15 minutes-just the bike chase sequence....I believe...hafta check that tape of mine!

yes he is on record saying he wanted a 40's type score....but i don't think that's what he got. Aside from the more obvious Korngold moments i think williams took it a lot further .

Great point. And here is yet another myth about Star Wars that persists to this day - that the score is a "classical Hollywood" 1940s-type score. I agree that it's not. It certainly draws on that era and uses it as a basis for the score with obvious things like the full orchestral scoring and the use of themes as leitmotifs, which had long gone out of fashion by the late 70s. But Star Wars is a score based primarily on three musical techniques: polytonality, parallelism, and pedal point. For that reason, I don't consider Williams to have begun a "return" to classical Hollywood techniques, but rather a modernization of them.

"By the late 70's..." I think you mean the late 60's. And during the early to mid 70's, Orchestral Scores had not completely died off-they just seemed to be in hibernation. The Orchestral Score was still being employed-just not as much as popular music was, but scores like The Cowboys,The Poseidon Adventure, The Towering Inferno, Jaws, and the Godfather pts One and Two continued to persist. And when Star Wars broke, it signaled the beginning of a new age for the Orchestral Score....

[Ludwig 1,179]

The famous E.T. myth about Steven Spielberg editing the final part of E.T. to JW's cues sadly isnt true either.

You're joking. Williams verbally says otherwise in the DVD extra for the film. How could it be a myth?

Somewhere I have an Evening At The Pops tape which I believe Spielberg himself corroborates with Williams on how that sequence went down.I'll have to check though.

That would be great. Do share if you find it.

yes he is on record saying he wanted a 40's type score....but i don't think that's what he got. Aside from the more obvious Korngold moments i think williams took it a lot further .

Great point. And here is yet another myth about Star Wars that persists to this day - that the score is a "classical Hollywood" 1940s-type score. I agree that it's not. It certainly draws on that era and uses it as a basis for the score with obvious things like the full orchestral scoring and the use of themes as leitmotifs, which had long gone out of fashion by the late 70s. But Star Wars is a score based primarily on three musical techniques: polytonality, parallelism, and pedal point. For that reason, I don't consider Williams to have begun a "return" to classical Hollywood techniques, but rather a modernization of them.

"By the late 70's..." I think you mean the late 60's. And during the early to mid 70's, Orchestral Scores had not completely died off-they just seemed to be in hibernation. The Orchestral Score was still being employed-just not as much as popular music was, but scores like The Cowboys,The Poseidon Adventure, The Towering Inferno, Jaws, and the Godfather pts One and Two continued to persist. And when Star Wars broke, it signaled the beginning of a new age for the Orchestral Score....

We're actually on the same page here. I do know my film music history and know it's like you say about orchestral scores. I was just making the point that when Star Wars came out, the orchestral score was no longer the norm. That's why I said "long gone out of fashion". But thanks for making sure. I'd hate to start a new myth about Star Wars.

[Director of Poltergeist 8,171]

Well, according to that Evening at Pops special, Williams chose to record one cue from E.T. without the film playing. It ended up being slightly longer than the film scene, so Spielberg recut that scene to fit the music.

[A24 4,836]

There is an other story .... John Williams wrote several pieces for CE3K without having seen the film. True or myth?!

[tedfud 39]

FROM:MR SHARK

This is my attempt at transcribing it, excluding the sustained Cs (Violin II tremolo C5 tremolo and Violin I harmonics 16va):

http://www.noteflight.com/scores/view/b1cacc77a3dd962dd8f54e79414954109cfc616e

You've got a contrapuntal line moving in contrary motion in m. 1, which then changes to parallel motion in the following measures - minor then major 6ths. The outline of the melody could be divided into two tetrachords ([0,1,5,6] and [0,1,4,7]), and one trichord - [0,3,6). The last of these is a diminished triad, and fits naturally into an octatonic collection.

It's also worth mentioning that the sustain of the vibraphone is likely causing some extra dissonance here.

thanks for this...very interesting. Where do you think this melody comes from ? how do you think he arrived at those pitches. I think I recognise the rhythm

t

[karelm 3,209]

 

FROM:MR SHARK

 

 

This is my attempt at transcribing it, excluding the sustained Cs (Violin II tremolo C5 tremolo and Violin I harmonics 16va):

 

http://www.noteflight.com/scores/view/b1cacc77a3dd962dd8f54e79414954109cfc616e

 

You've got a contrapuntal line moving in contrary motion in m. 1, which then changes to parallel motion in the following measures - minor then major 6ths. The outline of the melody could be divided into two tetrachords ([0,1,5,6] and [0,1,4,7]), and one trichord - [0,3,6). The last of these is a diminished triad, and fits naturally into an octatonic collection.

 

It's also worth mentioning that the sustain of the vibraphone is likely causing some extra dissonance here.

 

 

thanks for this...very interesting. Where do you think this melody comes from ? how do you think he arrived at those pitches. I think I recognise the rhythm 

 

t

 

 

Sounds like an accurate transcription, Mr. Shark.  There are a lot of similar moments in Star Wars.  For example, starting at 8 seconds until 30 and again at 1:42 of the same cue when the holgram fades away.  Do you think these are related to the segment you transcribed or simplify recurring textural underscore?

[tedfud 39]

oh the transcriptions is from Mr Shark ( i suspect NOT his real name )...I messed up the quote button

t

[Sharkissimo 1,976]

FROM:MR SHARK

This is my attempt at transcribing it, excluding the sustained Cs (Violin II tremolo C5 tremolo and Violin I harmonics 16va):

http://www.noteflight.com/scores/view/b1cacc77a3dd962dd8f54e79414954109cfc616e

You've got a contrapuntal line moving in contrary motion in m. 1, which then changes to parallel motion in the following measures - minor then major 6ths. The outline of the melody could be divided into two tetrachords ([0,1,5,6] and [0,1,4,7]), and one trichord - [0,3,6). The last of these is a diminished triad, and fits naturally into an octatonic collection.

It's also worth mentioning that the sustain of the vibraphone is likely causing some extra dissonance here.

thanks for this...very interesting. Where do you think this melody comes from ? how do you think he arrived at those pitches. I think I recognise the rhythm

t

Sounds like an accurate transcription, Mr. Shark. There are a lot of similar moments in Star Wars. For example, starting at 8 seconds until 30 and again at 1:42 of the same cue when the holgram fades away. Do you think these are related to the segment you transcribed or simplify recurring textural underscore?

While not exactly the same, I'd say it's definitely related. Minor thirds planing to an [0,1,5,6] outline.

You could call it the 'Princess in Distress' motif, or something similar, since it bookends the statements of Leia's theme.