Datameister

I agree. It's a great sound, but it gets a little cliched after a while.

Are you referring to the motif doubled by French horn and flute just before Yoda's theme enters in "Carbon Freeze/Darth Vader's Trap/Departure of Boba Fett"? That's the Boba Fett motif I was talking about. You can hear it in that scene and at two other points later in that same track. I don't believe the Kamino music is at all related to it. The Kamino motives are mostly based on ascending and descending arpeggiated minor-sixth chords--effective, but much simpler than the Boba Fett motif from ESB.

Thanks, Cerrabore. Hey, would anyone be interested in uploading the AOTC "On the Conveyer Belt" bonus track to the FTP? Some of us were too foolish to buy the Target version... Man, the AOTC DVD rips make the atrocious editing of the music even more evident. Grrr...

Okay, I think you guys are taking these comparisons too far. I hear nothing thematically related to this motif in any part of "War Plans." That violin tremolo riff just before "The Gungans March" does seem related, yes, but the two cues you mentioned, Jim, seem totally unrelated. That melody in the trombones in "The Senate" is at best similar to the AOTC conflict motif. Come on, guys...don't try to look too deep into these symbolisms. Coincidences happen. 8O Now, a really great subtle statement of an established motif occurs at about 1:18-ish in "Bounty Hunter's Pursuit," from AOTC. If you listen closely, you'll hear Boba Fett's motif on solo trumpet with some violin accompaniment. In a way, this helps tie Obi-Wan's hiding behind the asteroid to the ESB scene when Boba finds the Falcon hiding behind the Star Destroyer. Well, maybe not. But Boba's motif is there, clear as day. I couldn't believe it when I heard it. Now, why couldn't that theme have been used more in the movie? It's also a pity that John Williams wasn't responsible for the Jango Fett theme Jeremy Soule wrote for the "Bounty Hunter" video game. That would have fit well into AOTC.

Where are these other statements in the UE?

This thread keeps getting better and better! lol.

^ Heh! Magical Me, I DVRed "Tomorrow Never Dies" and listened hard. The buzzing sound I'm talking about can be heard at least twice--once while 007 is swimming in the submarine, and again sometime later in the climactic scenes. Not sure exactly when. I'm starting to become convinced that this sound is synthesized. Not really sure, though. I'm a percussionist and amateur composer, and I'd very much like to know if this is an acoustic instrument.

I really enjoyed that. Yeah, the mixing was TERRIBLE--being able to hear the piano better would have added a lot--but it was nice anyway. It was my first time hearing John Williams perform. Magnus, I agree with you to some extent. I think Yo-Yo Ma's overrated, although he certainly does have a lot of talent and experience. I really enjoyed his performance on the Tonight Show, in any case.

Are you referring to the music from 1:23 to 1:29 in "Queen Amidala Warns the Federation"? I didn't realize that motif was intended to be used repeatedly. That's a pity; it's a nice start for a theme. I think that's flute doubled by trumpet an octave lower. Interesting orchestration there. It creates adds interesting, mildly exotic flavor to the flute sound. "HERE AT LAST IS EVERY NOTE OF THE ORIGINAL MUSIC THAT JOHN WILLIAMS COMPOSED FOR STAR WARS: EPISODE I THE PHANTOM MENACE." That's what the back of the UE packaging says. Is this not false advertising in the most extreme sense? That would mean the 30 minutes not included either weren't music, weren't composed by John Williams, or weren't composed for TPM. Oh, maybe they just weren't "notes," per se. That must be it. 8O 8O Ironically, at least some of the music was included on the OST.

The AOTC and ROTS segments do sound thematically related to me, but that TPM fanfare doesn't seem to be at all. By the way, that fanfare was one of the things I was most disappointed about not hearing in the TPM OST. Thank the Lord for the Ultimate Edition. Now, if only the same thing would happen with Revenge of the Sith...the cues for the Sidious-Windu duel, Yoda's farewell, and "Padme's Visit" have truly disappointing quality on the DVD rips. The cue for the fight with Dooku, too, for that matter.

Hey Pixie Twinkle, I actually agree with you. I said "ultimate" goal, but "immediate" would have been a better word choice, as you said. It's an important distinction. Good film music is written with the explicit purpose of enhancing the movie it's written for, but a truly great composer will do his/her best to make the music perfectly functional outside of the film, and the act of striving for this goal will usually improve the effect the music has on the movie. Like you said, it's sometimes the music that gets remembered better than the film.

You've brought up several important points. It's very true that people often forget that the ultimate goal of a film score is to score a film. IMO, a truly great film score will work both in the film and as a stand-alone. It might work better in one of the two contexts, but it will still work either way. Most of John Williams' more popular scores are like that--as evidenced by the number of concerts, field shows, and spoofs that revolve around them. The first goal of a score should indeed be to enhance (and even help create) the mood of a movie. But if this is done well enough, I think the music will usually work well outside of the film anyway. I think a big part of the reason for Maestro Williams' popularity is his use of lietmotif--a device that works both in the film and in the concert hall. I've gotten chills repeatedly when that fragment of the Imperial March booms in the trombones as Vader and Palpatine oversee the construction of the Death Star. Amazing what just a fragment of a recognizable and well-written theme can do for a scene.

I wouldn't mind listening to Pirates, Indiana Fett. As long as you don't try to listen to the whole thing straight through, I find any one or two tracks to be quite enjoyable. It's terribly overdosed on synths and there's not nearly enough variety (except for "One Last Shot"), but for a film score that was composed, orchestrated, and recorded by a number of Media Ventures dudes in a ridiculously short amount of time, it's not too bad. It's not John Williams; it's not very refined; it's not very sophisticated, musically. But on a sheer visceral level, it can be enjoyable as long as you don't try to hear all of it at one sitting. That becomes way to monotonous and grates on the nerves. If you don't like it, I understand. Anyway, enough ranting...I'm not sure if the sound is used in The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly. I don't think it is. Magical me, I think I remember hearing the sound in Tomorrow Never Dies, but I don't own the soundtrack so I couldn't say.

I wish I could. There's a similar sound on the Pirates of the Caribbean soundtrack, but much softer. (It's in "Swords Crossed," at about 1:30 to 1:32.) I can't think of any other specific examples. I suppose it may be some sort of cymbal being bowed, but I think this sound is harsher. Think bowing a cymbal col legno with a titanium bow.

Hey, all. I have a question that's bothered me for some time; perhaps one of you will be able to answer it. There is this buzzing sound I've heard in a couple of film scores and on TV documentaries, etc. It sounds very metallic and it could almost be produced by playing a roll on some sort of exotic cymbal. But I can't figure out what instrument makes this sound. It's not a normal suspended cymbal, sizzle cymbal, China cymbal, or gong. I don't think I've ever heard this used in anything by John Williams. It's often used to evoke images of a scorching desert or the like. Perhaps it's synthesized? I'm not really sure. The best example of this sound I can think of is heard near the end of the Saber Tooth segment of "Walking with Prehistoric Beasts," a BBC/Discovery Channel collaboration that aired a few years ago. It can be heard very clearly just under 27 minutes into that segment. So, anyone got any ideas?

Most beautiful? Not sure about that. Coolest small design: Episode III Jedi Starfighter Coolest medium-sized design: Millennium Falcon Coolest large design: the Enterprise, as shown in The Wrath of Khan Coolest ridiculously-gigantic design: the Executor (I totally agree with Blumenkohl--not a brilliant design, but the execution is incredible...no pun intended.) Dumbest design when something much cooler would have been feasible: E.T.'s ship. Sorry, E.T. fans, but that stupid sphere has always bothered me.

I came out as Mr. Elfman...interesting. He's simultaneously one of my favorite and least favorite composers. I don't doubt the man has incredible talent, and I enjoy some of his music a lot. But some of it is simply too dark and bizarre for my tastes. Almost...morbid. I know a lot of people are into that, but I'm not.

Well, the last one is going to be true, I'm sure of it. But I voted for the first one, because I don't intend to just throw out my CDs when I die.

I usually resist the temptation to buy the soundtrack before seeing a movie, even if I know without a doubt I'm going to buy it afterwards. I prefer to hear the music in the context of the movie first, then wait a couple of weeks, then buy the soundtrack. That couple of weeks between blurs my memory a little, so my brain can't always link the soundtrack to scenes in the movie. In a way, I get to hear the score fresh again, but I can try to piece together what goes where. Then I see the movie on DVD a few months later and all my questions are answered. The aforementioned "dialogue music" is always very interesting to hear both in the film and by itself. Often, the context of the film really enhances the music a lot.

Relative pitch can be learned. Perfect pitch...I think the only way that can be taught is if you start a kid off really early, and even then it might be unsuccessful. Maybe I'll try that as an experiment with my kids someday...see if I can get one of them to learn perfect pitch. Probably won't work, though.

ET has some scary moments, indeed. "The Immolation Scene" isn't scary music, but it is certainly disturbing. Those twisted F#mM7add9 chords in the strings are heart-wrenching, especially in the context of the movie. Come to think of it, most of the music that accompanies the last twenty minutes of ROTC used to disturb me so much I had trouble listening to it, but the reasons behind that are far too complex and embarrassing to explain here. Some of the dark Harry Potter music gets to me. Not so much anymore, now that I've heard it so much. Still...

Sorry about that little non sequitor, Mr. Skywalker. Whoops! I greatly enjoy that entire sequence, too. The entire first twenty minutes of the movie have great pacing and so much to look at and think about. I just felt like the music wasn't quite deserving of the title "Best Prequel Cue." Then again, I don't know if any cue does...there are so many great pieces...

A large orchestra. Seriously, I could not possibly choose a single favorite instrument. My initial reaction would be the (French (but actually German) or Viennese) horn--these instruments have a knack for sounding heroic, tender, passionate, and strong all at once. But then again, I love all the instruments of the orchestra. All the string instruments share similar timbres and yet they can produce such a wide range of effects and emotions. The oboe and English Horn are so acoustically and emotionally pleasing when played well. Trombones have a wonderful unabashed boldness; tuba is rather like a well-loved grandfather. Trumpets are the rock stars of the orchestra, but they really are capable of a nice variety of expression. Flutes can produce both shrill and gentle music; clarinets have a warm, soothing quality that feels rather like a cup of hot cocoa on a cold day. Bassoons are not always as comical as they are stereotyped--the wonderfully somber bassoon solo near the end of Stravinsky's "The Firebird" proves that. Piano is great in its own ways, especially for the person playing it--this instrument offers the unique opportunity to play all the notes in the chords, which is the reason I enjoy playing it so much. Harp, despite the cliches that surround it, is an incredible instrument with such a delicate timbre. And then there's percussion. Most people don't typically think of percussion instruments as being terribly "musical," but I as a percussionist know that's baloney. I enjoy playing percussion and playing piano for very, very different reasons. But both can be musical in their own respects. Okay, so piano's technically percussion, too. Sorry.

I think we all need to agree on one ground rule: there is no such thing as a composer who is "better" than another in an objective sense. So ultimately this thread isn't about who's the "better" composer; it's about who we prefer to listen to. I prefer to listen to Williams. Mozart was indeed a genius. He was a prolific composer and child prodigy, and his music continues to be enjoyed by many. However, I personally find his music to be of intellectual value only. The melodies and counterpoints are interesting--but they don't affect my heart at all. I prefer to hear a piece that tickles the heartstrings, and Mozart just doesn't do it for me. But I wouldn't dream of suggesting Williams is a superior composer, or a worse one. There really isn't such a thing. I'd say I have (slightly) more respect for Mozart than for Williams, but more respect for Williams' music than for Mozart's. Does that make sense? Long story short, I prefer listening to John Williams. Classical and baroque are just a little too...sterile to my ears. In sharp contrast, I almost had to take a break halfway through "Anakin's Betrayal" the first time I listened to it--it affected my emotions in such an intensely good way that it was almost too much. The Romantic period was interesting because it sort of bridges the gap between classical and modern orchestral film music such as Williams'. Romantic period music is a little edgier, a little more innovative, than classical, but it still doesn't affect my emotions quite as much as a good John Williams film score. Composer Fan, your sig is awesome.

Seriously? I found the cues for the Battle of Coruscant to be enjoyable, but nothing terribly special. My favorite battle music (I'm talking non-thematic action music here) has got to be the material written for the Battle of Hoth. The unusual orchestrations plus the use of the low registers of the piano and the bizarre, mechanical rhythms work very nicely. I feel like that's Williams' most unique action music right there. I just listened to "Grievous and the Droids" from the OST while watching the movie. Whoever said they synced up perfectly was right. Interesting. I think I like it better without the music, but it's cool to see the scene on the bridge with music. How ironic that Luke's theme plays while Anakin is speaking... Do you guys think the fanfare at the beginning of "Enter Lord Vader" was intended for the scene when Obi-Wan meets up with Tantive IV? I think I'll go see if it matches up now... EDIT: Well, it doesn't really match up. It's too short and doesn't really fit the mood of the scene. And the tracked music used in the film isn't really tracked--it was recorded for ROTS. So I'm going to say that the fanfare from "Enter Lord Vader" was intended for another scene, perhaps one edited out of the final cut. Anyone have any ideas?