Chen G.

Ho ho ho, merry after-Hobbit day!

The melody line, yes. And of course we hear the Imperial March in its complete guise (although very softly) towards the end of the film. But the connection is not really made clear until the end-credits, and in the movie it comes replete with a sound effect of Vader's breathing.

I mean, the Rings already doesn't look a thing alike: And of these certainly Nenya is a very important prop that got quite a few closeups in the movie, and will surely get many in the show. There's nothing in The Rings of Power that's recognisably the same. Its all just ersatz, due to copyright. Just like the Raimi Oz.

That's what "spiritual prequel" means.

Its not. Its only a "spiritual" prequel. A little bit like Raimi's Oz.

We know Howard wrote the main titles music. We don't know its all he was engaged to write...

Ah, but you have!

Its really not THAT mangled. I mean, The Two Towers got mangled in editing just as much (Moria music over the Warg attack!?!) and we don't see Howard complaining...

I think enormously so. I think The Hobbit provided a unique opportunity to Howard musically: it allowed him to expand enormously on the music of the Dwarves, which ran all through The Lord of the Rings but was scarcely very significant to that trilogy. And all those reprisals of little transitional passages from The Lord of the Rings like the music when Gandalf sees Thorin's map, or when Bilbo hands Frodo the Mithril vest, etc... Now, whether Howard enjoyed making The Rings of Power....

Oh, I'm not disputing its your observation - I'm not saying you stated it as incontestible fact or anything. I'm just demonstrating why I think its the wrong observation to come away from these films with. Also, a very pertinent quote of Jackson's I found just now:

That's not the point. The point is that, to say, "its not liked, ergo the people making it must not have liked making it, or don't stand by what they had made" - is wrong.

I'm saying episode I's credits end on an ahnung of Darth Vader's music. Episode II's end with an ahnung of the tragic end of Anakin and Pamde's love affair. And Episode III's is an ahnung of practically all the music of the original film, which in this context is Episode IV. Not saying its as effective, but I think that's definitely the intent there.

This is special pleading. Jackson had been developing The Hobbit since 1995, and worked on it seriously until 1997 when they went forward with The Lord of the Rings, then started thinking about it again in 2002 while they were wrapping up The Two Towers, and then again quite intensly after the trilogy wrapped. He was producing and writing it, and he chose Del Toro to direct, and to do so from Jackson's facilities and using his crew and his script. So it was definitely a project dear to his heart, even if he wasn't originally going to direct it. I mean, Spielberg and Cameron produce a lot and we don't take their taking the producer seat as some sort of sign of disinterest in the project. Heck, the project Jackson was going to direct had he not had to jump on The Hobbit, he ended up producing: Mortal Engines. When Del Toro quit, obviously it was a no-brainer that Jackson would step-in to direct. And - again, except for out-of-context YouTube videos, if you watch the whole of the making-ofs which are even more detailed than those of The Lord of the Rings, you will find that all the testimony is Jackson had scarcely been in a better humour as when he was shooting these. Yes, he had a shorter preproduction period than he might like, but lets put things in proportion: all in all he had nine months, plus two breaks in the shooting schedule. That's not insubstantial, especially given that there was a lot of groundwork already covered either under Del Toro tenure or even back in The Lord of the Rings, being that this was a prequel, plus its 30% shorter. Like I said, the unabridged making-ofs, as opposed to the isolated bit you linked, show that, yes, they had time-crunch issues but they worked around them. And, again, the Fincher example is a non sequitur. Jackson made three of these - and by all accounts made them as he saw fit - made extended editions through to 2015, remastered them to UHD in 2020. He's definitely not renounced them and in fact at every opportunity expressed nothing but pride over having made them. The mere fact that, as I pointed out, he had wanted and seemingly still wants to be involved in the future of this great film series goes to show the situation was nowhere near as melodramatic or acrimonious as you present it. Its okay to dislike a film. But to infer from one's dislike that it was surely a mirthless job for the people making it is a canarad. Like, I hated The Rise of Skywalker. I thought it was appaling. But I see absolutely no reason to believe the people making it didn't enjoy making it, or thought they were making something worthwhile.

Its in the end credits and only in the end-credits that we hear how young Anakin's music morphs into the Imperial March.

Well...I mean, you're not wrong. That's one of the funny things about the sequel trilogy: lovely scores and wonderful melodies, no doubt, but does it really add anything new to the overriding musical "argument" being made? I'm not so sure it does. I mean, take a look at the climax of The Rise of Skywalker: we get a big apotheosis of the Emperor's music, and then Rey's music comes back and triumphs over it, there's a big statement of "The Force" theme... its all very dramatic, but its not exactly bringing this material to some sort of conclusive development of a kind that had not already been done in previous "concluding" entries. And, to speak to the subject of the thread, the end credit suite while lovely hardly functions like some nine-film summation that one would want it to be.

I mean, he had all six films remastered. He could have easily sprung on the chance. I know he told Universal he'd love to recut Kong. No, it seems he's pleased with the finished piece. He also said as much: Also here: And to DP/60:

That video has been taken out of the larger context of the making-ofs. See, for instance, the following video where Jackson explains how they got around this issue: Also, put the director's commentary of The Two Towers on sometime: You'll hear the dread "Winging it" comment spoken more times than anywhere in The Hobbit's making-of. Jackson is ultimately not the David Lean type where he plans every shot and then executes said plan: he was constantly rewriting the Rings scripts almost daily as they were shooting. Fellowship of the Ring had two different endings and at least three different beginnings, etc... And really, just because the process itself may have been a little difficult and even grueling (what 266-day-long shoot isn't?) doesn't mean the filmmakers aren't proud of the finished result. Jackson has said as much in many, many interviews and certainly had every chance to recut the films if he so wanted, and didn't.

I think in Revenge of the Sith all that music is partially concieved of as a "Next time on Star Wars!" All the themes exposited in the end-credits suite are ones that play an important role in the original film, which is the next one up, as it were. The previous two prequel scores also "set up" something of the next entry with their end-credit suits, so it makes sense.

All the testimony is Jackson is pleased with the films. Just because one doesn't like a film, doesn't mean the people making it weren't. I spoke to Ian Nathan, and he told me that Jackson was very keen when Amazon asked him if he might be an executive producer on their show, and now we're told he's very interested in the going-ons with new films at New Line and is certainly hugely enthusiastic for The War of the Rohirrim. Hardly speaks to a person burnt out by the series...

Ho ho ho! Merry Hobbit Day (22 September):

The Phantom Menace and Attack of the Clones (to a lesser extent Revenge of the Sith) do have a unique Ahnung function, whereby the very end of the credits teases something that is yet to come. That's very good. But yeah, it probably has to go to The Empire Strikes Back.

Classical symphonies had much more standardised in form, though. Whereas programmatic works like Lohengrin or the Star Wars scores, not so much. So in this case, I do think the model is Wagnerian (albeit via Korngold). It has some antecedents in the works of Carl Maria von Weber, true. But still. Watch the original film again: the theme is either not stated fully, or its final cadence is tainted by disonance all throughout the film EXCEPT the march-like version at the very end. That's a very Wagnerian technique (although you can find an antecedent to it in Weber's Euryanthe).

which is obviously a regurgitated plot element from the original Star Wars.

That's what I think, too. I think if you're making a film series (or media series in this case) all the entries should definitely feel of-a-piece. They can exhibit great variety, creativity and by no means have to feel the same or retread the same ground, but they do need to feel like they all belong together. I must say, I don't think Star Wars ever achieved that very well. Even the prequel trilogy, which are all directed by one person for a change, each film looks completely different.