The Big Bad Star Trek XI Thread

[Datameister 2,043]

It doesn't come across as a total Zimmer lift or anything for me; just somewhat similar in terms of how he approaches the melody and chords. Appropriately so, if you ask me. Actually, the influence that I hear a lot more strongly is the Hornerian quality to the third and fourth measures...the chord progression reminds me pleasantly of TWOK, but again without feeling like mere plagiarism.

[indy4 155]

It doesn't come across as a total Zimmer lift or anything for me; just somewhat similar in terms of how he approaches the melody and chords. Appropriately so, if you ask me. Actually, the influence that I hear a lot more strongly is the Hornerian quality to the third and fourth measures...the chord progression reminds me pleasantly of TWOK, but again without feeling like mere plagiarism.

Agreed 100%

[OneBuckFilms 319]

Reading that interview makes me look forward a lot to Star Trek 2, if it's done by Giacchino.

Also, I don't understand why everyone has a problem with the main theme, I think it's wonderful.

[Morlock 11]

Well, all of you have fun with your love-fest. I still think the theme sounds like something Harald Kloser or Jablonsky might have written for their latest crap-fests. Do like the Spock theme, though. Giacchino just doesn't strike me to be living up to his reputation recently. Good pieces, but no really great ones, and they do not come together to make for a great album. Are people that desparate for him to be THE film composer of choice that they are willing to ignore his short-comings so readily? Star Trek simply does not sound to me like having come from the same composer who did Ratatouille, The Incredibles, or seasons 3-5 of Lost. It's a soulless collection of cues. Any that's why it sounds like a Zimmer-ite score. We're hearing interviews about a Herculean effort being put into these things, when what we're hearing is just okay. Not a huge success, certainly not a huge failure. Just...okay. Decent. Some really good stuff.

John Williams must be rolling in his grave.

[Ollie 1,059]

You task me Morlock, you task me.....

I'm starting to think we're the only ones hearing this straight.

Well we are Texans.

I disagree, Mr. Olivarez;

Ahhh, don't call me Mr.

Next people will be calling me sir and old man......

[Neimoidian 14]

Ahhh, don't call me Mr.

Next people will be calling me sir and old man......

Or grandpa...

[Ollie 1,059]

That's not very damn funny.

[Datameister 2,043]

But now it's so dang tempting! I may need to squeeze in a "Gramps" every now and then.

[Diego 21]

Star Trek simply does not sound to me like having come from the same composer who did Ratatouille, The Incredibles, or seasons 3-5 of Lost.

Well, AOTC and KOTCS doesn't sound to me like having come from the same composer who did Star Wars, Empire, Raiders, Superman, Jaws, yet people around here love them.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

The difference is that several decades separate the Williams scores.

[Diego 21]

Yeah, but to me, the main difference is that Star Wars, Empire, Jedi, Superman, Jaws (I could go on) are masterpieces, but AOTC and KOTCS are mediocre (made for mediocre movies it has to be said).

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

To me comparing Giachinchin with Williams is comparing mediocraty with te sublime.

[Diego 21]

For me, Up and Star Trek are better then AOTC, ROTS, KOTCS and some others. I would agree with you if you compare Giacchino to CEOT3K or Jaws, and I wouldn't call it mediocrity to the sublime, but more like something good to the sublime. But Williams has also done mediocrity, and like I've said before, it's not even completely his fault, as the films he scores have also become mediocre (or just plain crap actually).

[Ollie 1,059]

Well, AOTC and KOTCS doesn't sound to me like having come from the same composer who did Star Wars, Empire, Raiders, Superman, Jaws, yet people around here love them.

I like you.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

it's not even completely his fault, as the films he scores have also become mediocre (or just plain crap actually).

Never bothered Goldsmith!

Anyway, comparing a brilliant composers weaker scores against a "average" composers better ones (though I doubt Star Trek is that) is something I never tried. It makes no sense to me.

John Williams for me is Jaws, Star Wars, E.T. TESB, Raiders, CE3K, TOD, TLC, ROTS, JP, TLW etc...etc...

I know he also composed a lot of scores that are not as good as those, but that's OK.

A composers to me is about the scores I love!

[Datameister 2,043]

Michael Giacchino is not John Williams. To utter their names in the same sentence is not to say they write the same kind of music. I doubt many members would suggest Giacchino has been more influential, or that he shows greater mastery over all the orchestral possibilities, or that he's a "better" composer - this is a John Williams fan board, after all. But to call him mediocre simply does not give him proper credit. In a world where MV-style scoring often seems like the only commercially viable option, Giacchino proves that it's okay to write interesting, leitmotivic, orchestral material with different emotional content. Some of it is quite excellent, albeit in a very different way from Williams' work; other scores are not so amazing. But the guy is quite simply not mediocre.

[Ollie 1,059]

You're alright too.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

I will say that I'm slightly disappointed by Giacchino's output this year. Yes, all of his scores are good, but they really aren't as great as I thought they would be.

His Star Trek sounds nothing like Zimmer to me.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Michael Giacchino is not John Williams. To utter their names in the same sentence is not to say they write the same kind of music. I doubt many members would suggest Giacchino has been more influential, or that he shows greater mastery over all the orchestral possibilities, or that he's a "better" composer - this is a John Williams fan board, after all. But to call him mediocre simply does not give him proper credit. In a world where MV-style scoring often seems like the only commercially viable option, Giacchino proves that it's okay to write interesting, leitmotivic, orchestral material with different emotional content. Some of it is quite excellent, albeit in a very different way from Williams' work; other scores are not so amazing. But the guy is quite simply not mediocre.

What you are saying is that Gia is great because everyone else is so crappy?

He's no Silvestri, Kamen, Poledouris, Horner, Barry, Shore, Arnold.

[OneBuckFilms 319]

Michael Giacchino is far from "mediocre". He's actually excellent.

Like any composer, he writes great, good, ok and bad scores.

John Williams is an absolute master, as evidenced by Star Wars, Indiana Jones, E.T., et al.

Michael Giacchino is at that stage where he's just now started getting the A-List movie assignments (M:I:III, Star Trek), and his work on Ratatouille, the Incredibles and Lost are nothing to sneeze at either.

I heards bits of Speed Racer, and it really didn't appeal to me.

I'm not a "technical" type, I'm a "do I love the music" type. That's what all this is really about. Do you enjoy the music?

And I do. I do for Star Trek, I do for Star Wars, I do for Indiana Jones.

Some don't like Star Trek as much as I do. Cool. There are people who love Rap or Country Music, and I don't.

I'm in it because I love the music, I sometimes love the movies too. That's why we are all here.

[Ollie 1,059]

Michael Giacchino is not John Williams. To utter their names in the same sentence is not to say they write the same kind of music. I doubt many members would suggest Giacchino has been more influential, or that he shows greater mastery over all the orchestral possibilities, or that he's a "better" composer - this is a John Williams fan board, after all. But to call him mediocre simply does not give him proper credit. In a world where MV-style scoring often seems like the only commercially viable option, Giacchino proves that it's okay to write interesting, leitmotivic, orchestral material with different emotional content. Some of it is quite excellent, albeit in a very different way from Williams' work; other scores are not so amazing. But the guy is quite simply not mediocre.

What you are saying is that Gia is great because everyone else is so crappy?

He's no Silvestri, Kamen, Poledouris, Horner, Barry, Shore, Arnold.

Actually there are a few composers you listed that he is better than right now.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

No, sorry!

[Ollie 1,059]

He's better than Silvestri and Arnold.

He's better than Horner is right now.

I'll leave Kamen and Poledouris out of it, since they passed way too young, and Barry is retired.

[OneBuckFilms 319]

I will say that I'm slightly disappointed by Giacchino's output this year. Yes, all of his scores are good, but they really aren't as great as I thought they would be.

His Star Trek sounds nothing like Zimmer to me.

I don't hear Zimmer in there either. I hear material on occasion that reminds me of Lost, but that's to be expected. He wrote Lost, after all.

I also know that expectations may have been rediculously high, and based on a long, storied history of music in the Star Trek canon.

The score was created for a movie that was not typical for Star Trek, and I don't think the score was bad in any way.

I suspect that on a deep level, people really wanted a Goldsmith or Horner score, and they got a Giacchino score.

For that reason, and that reason alone, it was never going to sound like the Star Trek scores of the past.

He tried going with the same scoring style as Williams, Goldsmith or Horner, and it simply didn't work for the movie.

I read somewhere that he tried incorporating TOS music, hints of Star Trek's musical history, and it didn't work either.

In the end, the film is what dictated what he needed to write. And THAT is what we got. And rightly so.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

He's better than Silvestri and Arnold.

He's better than Horner is right now.

I'll leave Kamen and Poledouris out of it, since they passed way too young, and Barry is retired.

Don't forget Shore.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Gia hasn't done anything of remotely the depth of LOTR!

[Datameister 2,043]

What you are saying is that Gia is great because everyone else is so crappy?

No, what I am saying that he is great because he's great. Having John Williams as his superior does not make him mediocre.

He's no Silvestri

Indeed...sometimes Giacchino is better.

Horner

These days, Horner is infinitely worse.

Shore....Gia hasn't done anything of remotely the depth of LOTR!

I'll take Star Trek over LOTR any day, not to mention his better works like Lost. It's wonderful that Shore put so much thought into his score, but my reaction is the same as with TDK, in a sense - the composer's explanation of the process may be awesome, but if the music doesn't provide an enjoyable experience, I'm not sold. Many passages of LOTR are far too melodramatic, rambling, and self-important for my tastes, though I certainly enjoy some highlights, particularly in FOTR.

[Ollie 1,059]

He's better than Silvestri and Arnold.

He's better than Horner is right now.

I'll leave Kamen and Poledouris out of it, since they passed way too young, and Barry is retired.

Don't forget Shore.

I would rate Shore higher than Giacchino. Barry was better in his prime. And as I said Poledouris and Kamen passed away way too early. They both had so many years left to further their legacy.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

I like Shore but what do you get if you take away Lord Of The Rings? Well IMO still something pretty good but probably not to a lot of people.

[OneBuckFilms 319]

Gia hasn't done anything of remotely the depth of LOTR!

I don't think ANY film score composer has, actually.

Lord of the Rings is an incredibly unique project, and about as epic and complex as anything ever written for film.

It is a monumental, stunning and beautiful work.

Howard Shore has done some good scores besides, and LOTR is pretty much a one hit wonder from him.

However, it is one HELL of a one hit wonder.

[Datameister 2,043]

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I would rate Shore higher than Giacchino. Barry was better in his prime. And as I said Poledouris and Kamen passed away way too early. They both had so many years left to further their legacy.

Poledouris was in his 60's, and had pretty much stopped scoring film.

Mark, just face it. Nothing Gia has done comes anywere close to Conan The Barbarian, a very early Poledouris score.

[Wojo 2,453]

And how many epic fantasy films has Giacchino scored that called for such a score as Conan?

Giacchino is 41 but has been actively scoring [music] for 12 years. Poledouris may have been 39 when he wrote Conan the Barbarian, but IMDB lists his first score in 1966, at the age of 21, so it took him 18 years to write Conan.

If you want to fairly judge Giacchino, then limit the composers you compare him to, to only the first 12 years of their scoring careers. That still gives John Williams three Oscar nominations, but no wins as it would exclude everything after 1970, including Fiddler on the Roof.

I'm not saying 41 is young or that Giacchino has time to write his own Conan, Lord of the Rings, BTTF, Dances with Wolves, Titanic, or other similar singular opus for which he will forever be remembered. He may never, or his best works are right around the corner. Who knows.

If you just want to bash him, well, don't let us stop you.

And for the record, I don't hear any Zimmer-isms per se in Giacchino's Star Trek score, but I do hear several fragments of melody that seem like they'd also belong in At World's End, or could naturally segue into that score.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Not bashing him, but nothing I've heard from him has convinced my that he is more then a good TV/video game composer.

[Charlie Brigden 7]

If you just want to bash him, well, don't let us stop you.

That's such a Josh500 statement.

I still like the score a lot. Is it great? No. Does it have great moments? Sure. Is it enough to rival the greats? No.

I hope we will hear some of his early attempts. But I still think he needed to pay more attention to Courage's theme, or at least to try and develop it, instead of just bringing it out suddenly at the end, which feels less like 'Remember this, this is awesome!' and more like 'Better get it in there somewhere for the fanboys.'

Still, I enjoy it.

[Datameister 2,043]

I agree that the score could have benefited from more use of the Courage theme - that particular decision wasn't my favorite. But I suspect it won't be an issue with the sequel.

[John Crichton 4]

Not bashing him, but nothing I've heard from him has convinced my that he is more then a good TV/video game composer.

And is that inherintly inferior to being a good film composer? I don't think so.

Not that Giacchino isn't a good film composer, he is.

[Wojo 2,453]

If you just want to bash him, well, don't let us stop you.

That's such a Josh500 statement.

I still like the score a lot. Is it great? No. Does it have great moments? Sure. Is it enough to rival the greats? No.

I hope we will hear some of his early attempts. But I still think he needed to pay more attention to Courage's theme, or at least to try and develop it, instead of just bringing it out suddenly at the end, which feels less like 'Remember this, this is awesome!' and more like 'Better get it in there somewhere for the fanboys.'

Still, I enjoy it.

No, I don't think you understood the point I was making, because the previous paragraph split it up.

You can't dismiss Giacchino's score by countering it with the greatest scores made by these beloved maestros over a 20+ year career. That's unfair. By that token, you should dismiss an early Williams score as being weaker than a strong Horner score from the late 80s, and use it to justify that Williams isn't as good as Horner.

But I also don't think that Gia's better than any of the composers that Stefan listed above, at least not any of them in their prime. If any have slipped past their prime, then it's debatable. But Gia's certainly not in his prime yet. Not if we're using a score like Star Trek as the benchmark.

Because I don't think that his Star Trek score is a genius score. The more I listen to it, the less frequently I want to listen to it again. And I usually skip the last track anyways, because I'm not a fan of the lyrical theme in the first place, and it feels so tacked on to the end credits.

[OneBuckFilms 319]

I agree that the score could have benefited from more use of the Courage theme - that particular decision wasn't my favorite. But I suspect it won't be an issue with the sequel.

I beg to differ. The crew had to BECOME the crew in Star Trek. In a sense, they had to ear their stripes.

Think about Casino Royale. They essentially held off of the James Bond Theme until the moment at the end when he BECAME James Bond.

In this film, the Courage Fanfare was held off until Kirk became the Captain, and "Star Trek" really began.

[Charlie Brigden 7]

If you just want to bash him, well, don't let us stop you.

That's such a Josh500 statement.

I still like the score a lot. Is it great? No. Does it have great moments? Sure. Is it enough to rival the greats? No.

I hope we will hear some of his early attempts. But I still think he needed to pay more attention to Courage's theme, or at least to try and develop it, instead of just bringing it out suddenly at the end, which feels less like 'Remember this, this is awesome!' and more like 'Better get it in there somewhere for the fanboys.'

Still, I enjoy it.

No, I don't think you understood the point I was making, because the previous paragraph split it up.

You can't dismiss Giacchino's score by countering it with the greatest scores made by these beloved maestros over a 20+ year career. That's unfair. By that token, you should dismiss an early Williams score as being weaker than a strong Horner score from the late 80s, and use it to justify that Williams isn't as good as Horner.

But I also don't think that Gia's better than any of the composers that Stefan listed above, at least not any of them in their prime. If any have slipped past their prime, then it's debatable. But Gia's certainly not in his prime yet. Not if we're using a score like Star Trek as the benchmark.

Because I don't think that his Star Trek score is a genius score. The more I listen to it, the less frequently I want to listen to it again. And I usually skip the last track anyways, because I'm not a fan of the lyrical theme in the first place, and it feels so tacked on to the end credits.

I'm not dismissing anything, I'm just providing a counterpoint which happens to fit with some things I agree with.

I beg to differ. The crew had to BECOME the crew in Star Trek. In a sense, they had to ear their stripes.

Think about Casino Royale. They essentially held off of the James Bond Theme until the moment at the end when he BECAME James Bond.

In this film, the Courage Fanfare was held off until Kirk became the Captain, and "Star Trek" really began.

CASINO ROYALE was brilliant because it showed hints of the theme and actual developments. True, Arnold didn't quote it proper until the end, but the score integrated parts of the theme to great effect. STAR TREK... didn't.

[Wojo 2,453]

I agree that the score could have benefited from more use of the Courage theme - that particular decision wasn't my favorite. But I suspect it won't be an issue with the sequel.

I beg to differ. The crew had to BECOME the crew in Star Trek. In a sense, they had to ear their stripes.

Think about Casino Royale. They essentially held off of the James Bond Theme until the moment at the end when he BECAME James Bond.

In this film, the Courage Fanfare was held off until Kirk became the Captain, and "Star Trek" really began.

The greatest Star Trek score ever written didn't have the Courage Fanfare, either, but you can't deny that The Motion Picture is any less "Star Trek" without it. It's certainly the film that's most like the TV show, more so than Abrams' movie. So using the "Batman Begins" explanation for why they don't get the theme until the end really doesn't work.

Besides, this movie's not about the beginning of Star Trek as we know it. It's the reinvention of a new Star Trek as we don't know it, so they can sell new adventures, and possibly pawn off some of the old ones along the way.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

I'm not saying 41 is young or that Giacchino has time to write his own Conan, Lord of the Rings, BTTF, Dances with Wolves, Titanic, or other similar singular opus for which he will forever be remembered. He may never, or his best works are right around the corner. Who knows.

Giacchino already wrote it... Medal Of Honor.

[Charlie Brigden 7]

I just want to add... I really hate the TDK explanation... it's such a bloody cop-out.

[OneBuckFilms 319]

If you just want to bash him, well, don't let us stop you.

That's such a Josh500 statement.

I still like the score a lot. Is it great? No. Does it have great moments? Sure. Is it enough to rival the greats? No.

I hope we will hear some of his early attempts. But I still think he needed to pay more attention to Courage's theme, or at least to try and develop it, instead of just bringing it out suddenly at the end, which feels less like 'Remember this, this is awesome!' and more like 'Better get it in there somewhere for the fanboys.'

Still, I enjoy it.

No, I don't think you understood the point I was making, because the previous paragraph split it up.

You can't dismiss Giacchino's score by countering it with the greatest scores made by these beloved maestros over a 20+ year career. That's unfair. By that token, you should dismiss an early Williams score as being weaker than a strong Horner score from the late 80s, and use it to justify that Williams isn't as good as Horner.

But I also don't think that Gia's better than any of the composers that Stefan listed above, at least not any of them in their prime. If any have slipped past their prime, then it's debatable. But Gia's certainly not in his prime yet. Not if we're using a score like Star Trek as the benchmark.

Because I don't think that his Star Trek score is a genius score. The more I listen to it, the less frequently I want to listen to it again. And I usually skip the last track anyways, because I'm not a fan of the lyrical theme in the first place, and it feels so tacked on to the end credits.

I'm not dismissing anything, I'm just providing a counterpoint which happens to fit with some things I agree with.

I beg to differ. The crew had to BECOME the crew in Star Trek. In a sense, they had to ear their stripes.

Think about Casino Royale. They essentially held off of the James Bond Theme until the moment at the end when he BECAME James Bond.

In this film, the Courage Fanfare was held off until Kirk became the Captain, and "Star Trek" really began.

CASINO ROYALE was brilliant because it showed hints of the theme and actual developments. True, Arnold didn't quote it proper until the end, but the score integrated parts of the theme to great effect. STAR TREK... didn't.

Actually, he did quote the Corage fanfare at a couple of key moments:

- When the shuttle took off from the Shipyards, just after McCoy and Kirk introduced each other, and we see the NCC-1701 on tha nacelle, we heard the fanfare then.

- Just as Kirk, Spock and Pike were beamed aboard the Enterprise, and Pike is taken to sickbay.

And of course, To Boldly Go / End Credits.

As he stated in an interview, he tried to include more hints of the Courage fanfare, and it simply did not work in the movie.

Perhaps it might be an exercise to pick where exactly in the movie this could be done organically? Where would you have specifically wanted to hear the Courage fanfare? Where could it have really worked?

[indy4 155]

I agree that the score could have benefited from more use of the Courage theme - that particular decision wasn't my favorite. But I suspect it won't be an issue with the sequel.

I beg to differ. The crew had to BECOME the crew in Star Trek. In a sense, they had to ear their stripes.

Think about Casino Royale. They essentially held off of the James Bond Theme until the moment at the end when he BECAME James Bond.

In this film, the Courage Fanfare was held off until Kirk became the Captain, and "Star Trek" really began.

The greatest Star Trek score ever written didn't have the Courage Fanfare, either, but you can't deny that The Motion Picture is any less "Star Trek" without it. It's certainly the film that's most like the TV show, more so than Abrams' movie. So using the "Batman Begins" explanation for why they don't get the theme until the end really doesn't work.

Really? It's pretty darn different. I haven't seen most of the Trek films, but I'd say the most similar from what I've seen is The Undiscovered Country.

[OneBuckFilms 319]

I agree that the score could have benefited from more use of the Courage theme - that particular decision wasn't my favorite. But I suspect it won't be an issue with the sequel.

I beg to differ. The crew had to BECOME the crew in Star Trek. In a sense, they had to ear their stripes.

Think about Casino Royale. They essentially held off of the James Bond Theme until the moment at the end when he BECAME James Bond.

In this film, the Courage Fanfare was held off until Kirk became the Captain, and "Star Trek" really began.

The greatest Star Trek score ever written didn't have the Courage Fanfare, either, but you can't deny that The Motion Picture is any less "Star Trek" without it. It's certainly the film that's most like the TV show, more so than Abrams' movie. So using the "Batman Begins" explanation for why they don't get the theme until the end really doesn't work.

Besides, this movie's not about the beginning of Star Trek as we know it. It's the reinvention of a new Star Trek as we don't know it, so they can sell new adventures, and possibly pawn off some of the old ones along the way.

This is an excellent point, but the Courage theme (though not the fanfare) is heard in 3 places, during the Captain's Log segments, played with the Blaster Beam giving it a dark edge.

[Wojo 2,453]

Right. I know of those moments from prior discussions here. I'm calling that the Courage lyrical theme, because it's the part that makes me want to either start singing the "beyond the rim of the starlight" words, or start moaning in a high-pitched female ethereal moan.

And now that I've gotten my high-pitched female ethereal moan of the day out of the way...um...I'm getting some really strange looks from the people around me.

[OneBuckFilms 319]

Wojo,

I suspect singing it out loud while typing will get some strange stares. Especially if your singing voice is as ghastly as mine ;D

[Neimoidian 14]

But I also don't think that Gia's better than any of the composers that Stefan listed above, at least not any of them in their prime. If any have slipped past their prime, then it's debatable. But Gia's certainly not in his prime yet. Not if we're using a score like Star Trek as the benchmark.

If we use Star Trek as the benchmark, he has his already behind him. Scores like Medal of Honor (mainly part 1 and Airborne) or Ratatouille (brilliant) are vastly better than anything he wrote this year.

[Wojo 2,453]

Wojo,

I suspect singing it out loud while typing will get some strange stares. Especially if your singing voice is as ghastly as mine ;D

I learned not to sing in public the hard way: don't commit yourself to album no matter how good you think you are. It's for that very reason I loathe Christmas...