I'll be happy if IV....

[Henry B 50]

If you just want to feel that "warm, fuzzy feeling" when you're watching a film, Raiders isn't for you. The characters are real and are not always there to entertain you. However, if you like the accessible comedic antics of Sean Connery, the butchery of serious characters by John Rhys-Davies and Denholm Elliott, and Harrison Ford doing an entire film like it's the shot in Raiders where he shoots the Arab swordsman, then you may prefer Last Crusade.

The scores? Well, I really don't like "Indy's First Adventure." So very, very boring! The unreleased second half of it is more interesting, although maybe that's just because it uses the Raiders March. The Grail themes are excellent, Dr. Jones's is decent. "Scherzo for Motorcycle and Orchestra" and "Belly of the Steel Beast" are pretty good action cues. The finale's good. And then what else is there?

[Quintus 5,399]

If you just want to feel that "warm, fuzzy feeling" when you're watching a film, Raiders isn't for you. The characters are real and are not always there to entertain you. However, if you like the accessible comedic antics of Sean Connery, the butchery of serious characters by John Rhys-Davies and Denholm Elliott, and Harrison Ford doing an entire film like it's the shot in Raiders where he shoots the Arab swordsman, then you may prefer Last Crusade.

However if you originally viewed Raiders as a rollicking comedy adventure then you might find it hard to choose a favourite. As some people quite reasonably do.

[Henry B 50]

Raiders isn't really a comedy, but its few jokes are the strongest of the series'.

[MSM 126]

That's right, John. Raiders score is powerful mostly because of one strong theme (The Ark theme), while LC doesn't have a so-predominant theme, but still feature a lot of themes that combined together makes a wonderful listening experience.

the grail theme is as memorable...

The Ark Theme isn't as listenable and as versatile as the Grail Theme is. Besides, Crusade has a lot of secondary themes and motives unlike Raiders. Crusade is more diverse also. Cues like Escape from Venice (with all it's little themes in it) and The Joneses Tied Up aren't like anything in Raiders. Of course Raiders has it's moments: Basket Chase is great, that is in the 1996 re-arrangement, and Flight from Peru and The Sub/Nazi Hideout are brilliant, but overall Crusade is more interesting. And I think Desert Chase isn't as interesting as is always stated.

Regarding to the movies themselves, I prefer Raiders however.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

Raiders is the best film, Crusade is the best score.

Joe's post (or any of Joe's posts) contain no amount of truth despite what he says. Opinions are opinions, and Joe seems more content on pissing other people off than actually stating them.

you don't know what truth is then do you.

i'd feel sorry for you but that would be a waste of my time.

[Red 75]

I rest my case.

[MSM 126]

I feel sorry for the fools here who think that either followup is superior to Raiders of the Lost Ark.

there is something special about that film, and that score.

Neither followup can even touch it.

To even suggest that they do, is assinine.

TOD is a phenomenal score on its own, nearly rivaling Raiders but not quite, while Least Crusade is merely John painting by numbers. Uninspired except for the grail theme.

There is an order and its 1,2,3, which is the natural order of things.

but it goes beyond that. Raiders was an event where everything worked, the stars and planets alligned, the Gods looked down on the crew with favor, virgins sacrificed the volcanic gods, whatever, they all insured that Raiders of the Lost Ark would be something unique, something special.

Sadly too many here don't even begin to appreciate what a perfect event this film is.

I assume you own all the three albums?

[Delorean90 42]

If you just want to feel that "warm, fuzzy feeling" when you're watching a film, Raiders isn't for you. The characters are real and are not always there to entertain you. However, if you like the accessible comedic antics of Sean Connery, the butchery of serious characters by John Rhys-Davies and Denholm Elliott, and Harrison Ford doing an entire film like it's the shot in Raiders where he shoots the Arab swordsman, then you may prefer Last Crusade.

The scores? Well, I really don't like "Indy's First Adventure." So very, very boring! The unreleased second half of it is more interesting, although maybe that's just because it uses the Raiders March. The Grail themes are excellent, Dr. Jones's is decent. "Scherzo for Motorcycle and Orchestra" and "Belly of the Steel Beast" are pretty good action cues. The finale's good. And then what else is there?

Wow.

I can see what you're saying about Sallah, but I think it makes perfect sense how Marcus was handled. The man hadn't done any fieldwork in years, and was thrust into the middle of this battle for the Grail. Notice how up until Iskenderun, he's the same old Marcus, and even then, you have things like the scene in the jeep in the desert with him talking to Donovan.

Harrison Ford doing an entire film like it's the Arab swordsman scene? Exaggerating a bit much, are we? Do I really need to make a list of the scenes where he's not acting like that?

I can see how you might think "Indy's Very First Adventure" is boring up until Indy goes after the cross, but from there I don't really follow that. And you don't care for "Ah, Rats!," "Escape From Venice," "The Penitant Man Shall Pass," "Keeping Up With the Joneses," and "Finale and End Credits" are any good? Not to mention the tons of great unreleased stuff, from the overlooked, softer parts of "Package From Venice" and "Ransacked House, to the short but sweet "To Castle Brunwald," to "Berlin Airport," "The Portuguese Coast," "The Pen Is Mightier Than the Sword," "The Wrong Chalice/Papa Jones is Healed"...

[indy4 155]

I can see how you might think "Indy's Very First Adventure" is boring up until Indy goes after the cross, but from there I don't really follow that. And you don't care for "Ah, Rats!," "Escape From Venice," "The Penitant Man Shall Pass," "Keeping Up With the Joneses," and "Finale and End Credits" are any good? Not to mention the tons of great unreleased stuff, from the overlooked, softer parts of "Package From Venice" and "Ransacked House, to the short but sweet "To Castle Brunwald," to "Berlin Airport," "The Portuguese Coast," "The Pen Is Mightier Than the Sword," "The Wrong Chalice/Papa Jones is Healed"...

That says it all, with the exception of Scherzo for Motorcycle and Orchestra. Bravo!

[John Crichton 4]

Indy's First Adventure does take a while to get going, but once Indy steals the cross and the action moves to the circus train it's first rate. Henry's right about the unreleased last part, it is the best part of the cue.

[Henry B 50]

I can see what you're saying about Sallah, but I think it makes perfect sense how Marcus was handled. The man hadn't done any fieldwork in years, and was thrust into the middle of this battle for the Grail. Notice how up until Iskenderun, he's the same old Marcus, and even then, you have things like the scene in the jeep in the desert with him talking to Donovan.

"Does anybody here speaking English?" Not plausible, only written for laughs. There are several lines like that, though I can't recall them at the moment.

Harrison Ford doing an entire film like it's the Arab swordsman scene? Exaggerating a bit much, are we? Do I really need to make a list of the scenes where he's not acting like that?

No, you don't. You know I was exaggerating to prove a point. Honestly, Ford's pretty good in this film, but his performance isn't as urgent and energetic as in Raiders and Temple.

I can see how you might think "Indy's Very First Adventure" is boring up until Indy goes after the cross, but from there I don't really follow that. And you don't care for "Ah, Rats!," "Escape From Venice," "The Penitant Man Shall Pass," "Keeping Up With the Joneses," and "Finale and End Credits" are any good? Not to mention the tons of great unreleased stuff, from the overlooked, softer parts of "Package From Venice" and "Ransacked House, to the short but sweet "To Castle Brunwald," to "Berlin Airport," "The Portuguese Coast," "The Pen Is Mightier Than the Sword," "The Wrong Chalice/Papa Jones is Healed"...

The action part of "First Adventure" is very lively, but that doesn't mean it's interesting. I think it's very impressive action music, but it doesn't particularly grab me. "Ah, Rats!" Eh, scary music. "Escape from Venice"? Pretty good. "The Penitant Man Shall Pass"? Ah... If I recall, there are some nice statements of the Grail theme in there, and the synth choir is interesting, but it's not a great cue. I mean, compare it to "Miracle of the Ark." "Keeping Up with the Jones" is pretty good. Oh, and I love "To Castle Brunwald." It belongs in a Frankenstein movie, not Indiana Jones, but it's awesome. Oh, and the Nazi theme is too cartoonish.

[indy4 155]

The action part of "First Adventure" is very lively, but that doesn't mean it's interesting. I think it's very impressive action music, but it doesn't particularly grab me.

Indy's First Adventure is one of THE best action pieces ever written. It's up there with Asteroid Field, Scherzo for Motorcycle and Orchestra, and many more. So is Escape from Venice.

[Quintus 5,399]

and Harrison Ford doing an entire film like it's the shot in Raiders where he shoots the Arab swordsman.

That's just Indiana Jones for you and that's why I love him so much! I've never thought of Indiana Jones as a strictly serious character, even during the most serious of situations. Like when he's on the front of that truck in Raiders holding on for dear life - there is a verly clear comedy edge to Ford's performance. Remember when the Arab worker falls from the building site onto the bonnet (hood) and Indy and the Nazi driver share a comical moment together before Indy abruptly wipes the smile of his face? Sheer Indy magic.

Indiana Jones is not a serious man, however Dr Jones is.

[Pieter Boelen 741]

I love Indiana Jones. It's my favourite film series still. The films and scores are all brilliant. I used to consider the Last Crusade the best Indy score, but now my favourite Indy scores depends on the track I'm listening to. Now I am listening to Nocturnal Activities, so Temple of Doom is my favourite score.

[Luke Skywalker 1,810]

Main title, peru 1936 has a 'boring' beginnning as Indy's very 1st adventure.

TOD on the other hand is the most catchy of the three from the beggining, with the song

[Quintus 5,399]

Main title, peru 1936 has a 'boring' beginnning as Indy's very 1st adventure.

I wouldn't call it boring, I'd call it intriguing, almost suspenseful.

[Luke Skywalker 1,810]

and first adventure begins with a build up to a fun action cue....

Both work and are good.

[vmw331 2]

The scores? Well, I really don't like "Indy's First Adventure." So very, very boring! The unreleased second half of it is more interesting, although maybe that's just because it uses the Raiders March. The Grail themes are excellent, Dr. Jones's is decent. "Scherzo for Motorcycle and Orchestra" and "Belly of the Steel Beast" are pretty good action cues. The finale's good. And then what else is there?

Indy's First Adventure and Scherzo for Motorcycle and Orchestra are examples of THE best action music ever composed.

Then you're wondering "what else is there?".......well, the rest of the score!

Even if the music is released or unreleased, for example with "Indy's First Adventure," it is some of the best music ever composed for film.

[Delorean90 42]

"Does anybody here speaking English?" Not plausible, only written for laughs. There are several lines like that, though I can't recall them at the moment.

"Water? No thank you, fish make love in it."

Ehh...I sorta see what you mean, but I think the fact that up until he's out of his element, he's the same old Marcus, is enough.

No, you don't. You know I was exaggerating to prove a point. Honestly, Ford's pretty good in this film, but his performance isn't as urgent and energetic as in Raiders and Temple.

I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree on that. Seems pretty much like Indy to me.

The action part of "First Adventure" is very lively, but that doesn't mean it's interesting. I think it's very impressive action music, but it doesn't particularly grab me.

Hm. It seems to me there's a difference in taste here, not necessarily discernment of quality on either end. I enjoy that lively action music--that whole upbeat, energetic feel is one I really like, and I also enjoy the "First Adventure" motif. I'm not quite sure, though, what you mean by interesting. Are you speaking in terms of melody, craftsmanship, orchestration...?

"Ah, Rats!" Eh, scary music.

I was really thinking in terms of about the time they get to the room with the tombs on to the end of the cue.

"The Penitant Man Shall Pass"? Ah... If I recall, there are some nice statements of the Grail theme in there, and the synth choir is interesting, but it's not a great cue. I mean, compare it to "Miracle of the Ark."

You don't like that section that starts at 2:28? Maybe it's not great, but at the very least it's certainly worth listening to. I don't see what "Miracle of the Ark" has to do with it. "The Wrong Chalice" would really be the corresponding scene/cue. Miracle of the Ark is fantastic, but it was doing something very different. That's almost like saying "Marion's Theme" isn't that great--compare it to "Miracle of the Ark." Not everything has to be an earth-shaking, mind-blowing cue to be good.

"Keeping Up with the Jones" is pretty good. Oh, and I love "To Castle Brunwald." It belongs in a Frankenstein movie, not Indiana Jones, but it's awesome.

Agreed.

Oh, and the Nazi theme is too cartoonish.

Now I think we're on two different levels here. It seems as though you're judging the theme based on its effectiveness and appropriateness to what's going on in the film (am I mistaken?). I'm talking about how enjoyable is it on its own. I think the Nazi theme is very enjoyable--"Brother of the Cruciform Sword" and "The Floor's on Fire" have a couple of the better bombastic statements, and the darker statements in "Berlin Airport" and "Turning Around" are fantastic.

I'm not sure I would say the Nazi theme is really too cartoonish for the movie, though. The movies are meant to be throwbacks to the old movie serials, and so they have their element of camp. The theme has never really bothered me in the context of the score or its own listening.

[John Crichton 4]

As I've said before my love of Indy's First Adventure isn't just as a pure piece of music, but an amazing accomplishment of technical film scoring with something like 50+ synch points.

[Henry B 50]

Now I think we're on two different levels here. It seems as though you're judging the theme based on its effectiveness and appropriateness to what's going on in the film (am I mistaken?). I'm talking about how enjoyable is it on its own. I think the Nazi theme is very enjoyable--"Brother of the Cruciform Sword" and "The Floor's on Fire" have a couple of the better bombastic statements, and the darker statements in "Berlin Airport" and "Turning Around" are fantastic.

I'm not sure I would say the Nazi theme is really too cartoonish for the movie, though. The movies are meant to be throwbacks to the old movie serials, and so they have their element of camp. The theme has never really bothered me in the context of the score or its own listening.

Actually, the Nazi theme does work well in the context of the film. This is one of many score inadequacies that has more to do with the film. It really bothers me that a series with such dramatic gravitas produced a light and comedic adventure. Other than the ending (Henry, Sr. shot onward), there's nothing very weighty about the film. It's like a pleasant breeze wafting through the window.

[indy4 155]

A It really bothers me that a series with such dramatic gravitas produced a light and comedic adventure. Other than the ending (Henry, Sr. shot onward), there's nothing very weighty about the film. It's like a pleasant breeze wafting through the window.

How can it bother you if it's pleasant?

[Henry B 50]

Um.

[Delorean90 42]

Hmm...again, I think there's enough of a balance. Yes, Last Crusade is the lightest of the three, but it's still got its moments--I'm thinking particularly of the crossroads scene. As I look back to Raiders, I think I see what you're talking about, but it just doesn't strike me that bad. Now, WB/Schumacher trying to get an Adam West feel in the same franchise as Burton's films, THAT is messed up. But in the case of Last Crusade, it doesn't go that far.

[Luke Skywalker 1,810]

raiders does not have a memorable nazi theme.

I cant even remember if it has one. When i think of nazi scenes it cames to my mind the ark theme

[John McClane 1]

raiders does not have a memorable nazi theme.

I cant even remember if it has one. When i think of nazi scenes it cames to my mind the ark theme

Are you joking, I hope?!

[Luke Skywalker 1,810]

No really. I checked with a quick listen and i just can find 'Nazi' background music.

But there is not a theme like in Last crusade (or in Emperor's tomb, or in Medal of Honor)

Most scenes in nazi territory (Map room, reunion and dig begins, well of the souls, discovery of the ark, ark trak, miracle of the ark) have the ark theme.

Airplane fight and desert chase is action music. Here is fanfaric material, but it is the theme?.. it would be the only tracks to feature it.

Maybe there is some theme, this creepy music that plays when the german with the black coat and glases plays. That could be motif motif.

i'm going to check the linner notes and i'll see if i refind the nazi theme (i have always thought there was one, but while looking for that Williams giacchino and Nazi themes, i couldnt find it again...)

[Elmo Lewis 6]

"Airplane Fight" - 2:06. I always thought that was it.

[Luke Skywalker 1,810]

"Airplane Fight" - 2:06. I always thought that was it.

i think it is. It in the liner notes.

They say theme is introduced in this track (a little late isnt it?, we have been seeing nazis and nazi bosses for an hour...). Its used in Desert chase but its not even mentioned on the notes.... No other meorable usage.

IMO it doesnt sound like a theme. Its a fanfare or a 'motif'

Last crusade uses its theme better, and is more connceted to the characters

My conclusion:

Raiders' Nazi Motif is for Las Crusade's Nazi Theme the same as SW's Imperial Motif is to ESB's Imperial March/DV Theme.

Both cues are perfect in their own movie, but isolated, the sequel's cue is the superior work while is possible that the original movie has the superior score as an isolated work.

[Romão 2,276]

That's right, John. Raiders score is powerful mostly because of one strong theme (The Ark theme), while LC doesn't have a so-predominant theme, but still feature a lot of themes that combined together makes a wonderful listening experience.

the grail theme is as memorable...

It's memorable indeed, but not predominant like the Ark theme, which is featured in pretty much almost every key moment of Raiders.

The Grail theme is memorable and woderful, but not predominant and used a lot like the Ark theme. I actually think that the "Scherzo for motorcycle and orchestra" is used more, though I wouldn't call it a predominant them as well.

Not that I want to contradict you, Mirko, but I would say there are more Grail theme statements in TLC that Ark's theme in Raiders.

[Luke Skywalker 1,810]

I think he was mislead becasue the ark theme gets many repetitions everytime it shows.

[Elmo Lewis 6]

I actually think that the "Scherzo for motorcycle and orchestra" is used more, though I wouldn't call it a predominant them as well.

The Scherzo shows up once (1) in the film, and there's a reprise in the end credits. So that's twice (2) in the whole movie. Which, according to my calculations, is much less than the times the Grail theme appears.

Maybe I should draw a picture.

[Romão 2,276]

The scherzo appears 5 times, at least.

Elsa's Betrayal, Germany has declared war on the Jones, The scherzo sequence itself, the Birds of Charlemagne and End Credits.

[Elmo Lewis 6]

Ah, right. I stand corrected.

On a more positive note, I think I'm ready to watch the Indy films again, since I'm apparently surprised by them again.

[John Crichton 4]

Not that I want to contradict you, Mirko, but I would say there are more Grail theme statements in TLC that Ark's theme in Raiders.

And you'd be right.

And just for pointless triviality, I think the most quoted theme in ToD is Short Round's theme.

[Luke Skywalker 1,810]

Not that I want to contradict you, Mirko, but I would say there are more Grail theme statements in TLC that Ark's theme in Raiders.

And you'd be right.

And just for pointless triviality, I think the most quoted theme in ToD is Short Round's theme.

what about...the march?

[John McClane 1]

Not that I want to contradict you, Mirko, but I would say there are more Grail theme statements in TLC that Ark's theme in Raiders.

No problems, Romão. I wasn't really comparing the numbers of the times both themes are used, I was pretty much pointing that the Ark theme is one of the most (or THE most) predominant theme of Raiders or even of the whole series. And by "predominant" I don't mean just the most used theme, but also the most important theme, and the most powerful one.

So yeah, of course both the Ark theme and the Grail theme are the most important in their respective movies (as they're about the objects Indy is looking for) but the Ark theme just sounds more predominant. I'm not sure if my thought is clear...probably I just think that the Ark is the very predominant theme in its movie just because it's scary, misterious and so damn wonderful.

[indy4 155]

My conclusion:

Raiders' Nazi Motif is for Las Crusade's Nazi Theme the same as SW's Imperial Motif is to ESB's Imperial March/DV Theme.

Both cues are perfect in their own movie, but isolated, the sequel's cue is the superior work while is possible that the original movie has the superior score as an isolated work.

I agree. I like Crusade's version MUCH better. So much more sinister sounding. The Raiders one almost sounds like it could be Indiana Jone's theme. It still works for the Nazis, it's just too vague.

[Delorean90 42]

My conclusion:

Raiders' Nazi Motif is for Las Crusade's Nazi Theme the same as SW's Imperial Motif is to ESB's Imperial March/DV Theme.

Both cues are perfect in their own movie, but isolated, the sequel's cue is the superior work while is possible that the original movie has the superior score as an isolated work.

I agree. I like Crusade's version MUCH better. So much more sinister sounding. The Raiders one almost sounds like it could be Indiana Jone's theme. It still works for the Nazis, it's just too vague.

You're kidding, right? Indy would sound pretty sinister if that was his theme, man.

[indy4 155]

My conclusion:

Raiders' Nazi Motif is for Las Crusade's Nazi Theme the same as SW's Imperial Motif is to ESB's Imperial March/DV Theme.

Both cues are perfect in their own movie, but isolated, the sequel's cue is the superior work while is possible that the original movie has the superior score as an isolated work.

I agree. I like Crusade's version MUCH better. So much more sinister sounding. The Raiders one almost sounds like it could be Indiana Jone's theme. It still works for the Nazis, it's just too vague.

You're kidding, right? Indy would sound pretty sinister if that was his theme, man.

It sounds tough--not evil. When you hear the theme from LC, you know the bad guys are coming. I didn't even know there was a Nazi Raiders theme until a few days ago.

Like I said, the RAiders Nazi theme sounds tough, fast-paced, exciting, and while it wouldn't make as good of a march as the Raiders March does, it would still fit the movie in its place.

[Delorean90 42]

Not as a hero's theme, no way. An antihero maybe, at a stretch. It is tough, fast-paced, exciting, but it's also minor--it's not uplifting and exuberant like the March, to give it that "can't keep me down" feel. I'm not saying it's necessarily the better Nazi theme, but it definitely makes sense as more anagonistic music.

[Henry B 50]

The Nazi theme in Last Crusade works for cackling villains with monocles twirled mustaches. Since most of the film is based in comedy (e.g. when Marcus is taken away by the truck), the theme fits in well. It makes the dull villains a little more interesting, actually. The original Raiders motif was smarter, though.

[Luke Skywalker 1,810]

The original Raiders motif was smarter, though.

It was so smart...that it got scarcely used therefore its not easy to identify it with the characters it was written for...

[Henry B 50]

The Nazis didn't need to be identified musically. The horrors of their regime are common knowledge.

[Morlock 11]

That's a rather rediciules comment to make in context of the Indiana Jones movies.

[Quintus 5,399]

That's what I thought too.

[Henry B 50]

Yeah, the Nazis are not taken seriously in Raiders. But my point is, everybody already knows they are "evil," so a big, cartoony fanfare isn't needed. That dark fanfare that plays during Toht's entrance is pretty cool, though, and better than the Last Crusade Nazi theme.

[Morlock 11]

Both are entirely appropriate. Both sound like a music from a trashy golden-age adventure. That's the style of the films, and the Nazis are Hardy Boys type villains, not historical Nazis. A big, pompous march is perfect.

[Luke Skywalker 1,810]

That dark fanfare that plays during Toht's entrance is pretty cool, though, and better than the Last Crusade Nazi theme.

Could that be the medallion theme?

[Morlock 11]

No, (I believe) he's talking about the portentious brass stuff when Toht walks into the bar.