JoeinAR 1,949 Posted June 27, 2008 Share Posted June 27, 2008 I've decided that John died back in 2002, and that what we hear of JW is actually William Ross, and what we see of JW is actually Pixar animation, even Spielberg knows not to use the Dreamworks animation dept. for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted June 27, 2008 Share Posted June 27, 2008 Sounds reasonable... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pixie_twinkle 48 Posted June 28, 2008 Share Posted June 28, 2008 John Williams as a writer of intelligent, complex and modern music, is only becoming more talented as the days go by.I think your confusing "intelligent, complex, and modern" with "tired and artistically lazy"... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neimoidian 14 Posted June 28, 2008 Share Posted June 28, 2008 John Williams as a writer of intelligent, complex and modern music, is only becoming more talented as the days go by.I think your confusing "intelligent, complex, and modern" with "tired and artistically lazy"...Tired? Sometimes. Artistically lazy? Very rarely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ollie 1,059 Posted June 28, 2008 Share Posted June 28, 2008 I've decided that John died back in 2002, and that what we hear of JW is actually William Ross, and what we see of JW is actually Pixar animation, even Spielberg knows not to use the Dreamworks animation dept. for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcus 390 Posted June 28, 2008 Share Posted June 28, 2008 No, Williams's talent is not in decline, and to state such a thing is fairly nonsensical, as it bespeaks a poor understanding of "talent".What this boils down to, is whether we agree with Williams's creative direction and choices, or not.Craft-wise, Williams is writing things he couldn't have penned two or three decades ago. It seems he is no longer as interested in writing for film, though, save for Spielberg's films, and a few select other projects. This is not only understandable, but also artistically very healthy.It is easy for Williams to write as he did in the 70s and 80s, CoS would be a good point in case. His recent Indy offering shows that he can have great fun with his old clichés, while adding a seemingly effortless technical virtuosity that very few composers can match, if any (and needless to say, I'm not talking about film composers...). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henry B 50 Posted June 28, 2008 Share Posted June 28, 2008 Well, Marcus, I don't think it's Williams's creative decisions that are at fault, but rather his inspiration. I just don't feel as much of a spark in his music as there used to be. His recent scores have plenty of great moments, but in the "golden age" his scores were continuously great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Mark 3,631 Posted June 28, 2008 Share Posted June 28, 2008 I can't believe some people trash Williams last 10 years output while proclaiming his crappier old scores like Cinderella Liberty "overlooked masterpieces".Williams composed his share on not so great scores in every decade,even if they all have a few good tracks each.As I seem to be replying to this same topic every week ,1994-1998 is his least inspired period.K.M.Also wondering what happened to the Cinderella Liberty thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neimoidian 14 Posted June 28, 2008 Share Posted June 28, 2008 I can't believe some people trash Williams last 10 years output while proclaiming his crappier old scores like Cinderella Liberty "overlooked masterpieces".Williams composed his share on not so great scores in every decade,even if they all have a few good tracks each.As I seem to be replying to this same topic every week ,1994-1998 is his least inspired period.K.M.Also wondering what happened to the Cinderella Liberty threadCinderella Liberty beats at least half of his recent output, save for AI, Memoirs of a Geisha and Prisoner of Azkaban. It's also one of the most unique and original works of his. The final cue gives me chills and makes my hairs stand.As for least inspired period, in 1997 alone he wrote great scores like The Lost World, Amistad, Rosewood and Seven Years in Tibet. I wouldn't call it a part of his least inspired period. Actually, this was one of the best years in his whole career (let alone the complete SW Trilogy release).P.S.Yeah, what happened with Cinderella Liberty topic?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ollie 1,059 Posted June 28, 2008 Share Posted June 28, 2008 His "crappy older work" set the tone for the composer he became. Anyone who dismisses it nowhere near the Williams fan they claim to be.I'm gonna guess the thread was deleted because it was in poor taste to post that info ahead of Intrada's announcement.If it is indeed going to be released by them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koray Savas 2,251 Posted June 28, 2008 Share Posted June 28, 2008 I can't believe some people trash Williams last 10 years output while proclaiming his crappier old scores like Cinderella Liberty "overlooked masterpieces".Williams composed his share on not so great scores in every decade,even if they all have a few good tracks each.As I seem to be replying to this same topic every week ,1994-1998 is his least inspired period.K.M.Also wondering what happened to the Cinderella Liberty threadCinderella Liberty beats at least half of his recent output, save for AI, Memoirs of a Geisha and Prisoner of Azkaban. It's also one of the most unique and original works of his. The final cue gives me chills and makes my hairs stand.I agree, though not necessarily with what you listed it beats. It's not as good as some of his recent output, but like I said in the thread, it's his best score out of everything he did before Jaws.Modern JW is my favorite, then Jazzy JW, then the JW scores everyone praises. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tjguitar 0 Posted June 28, 2008 Share Posted June 28, 2008 hey Mark, no need to attribute malice when there simply wasn't any there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Mark 3,631 Posted June 28, 2008 Share Posted June 28, 2008 His "crappy older work" set the tone for the composer he became. Anyone who dismisses it nowhere near the Williams fan they claim to be.same with someone who dismisses almost every score Williams has composed in the last 10 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ollie 1,059 Posted June 28, 2008 Share Posted June 28, 2008 Well I'm not the one dismissing every score. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Mark 3,631 Posted June 28, 2008 Share Posted June 28, 2008 I'm not saying you are. But this topic seems to be coming up often.Personally bluesy Sugarland Express type score are my least favourite of Williams scores ,then 60's comedy Penelope type scores ,then 90's 7 Years in Tibet type dramatic scores. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koray Savas 2,251 Posted June 28, 2008 Share Posted June 28, 2008 Wouldn't it suck if Intrada didn't release Cinderella Liberty? I would be pissed. That thread have better been correct! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Mark 3,631 Posted June 28, 2008 Share Posted June 28, 2008 Unless they decided to release Family Plot instead Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Breathmask 555 Posted June 29, 2008 Share Posted June 29, 2008 I'm gonna guess the thread was deleted because it was in poor taste to post that info ahead of Intrada's announcement.Correct Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ollie 1,059 Posted June 29, 2008 Share Posted June 29, 2008 hey Mark, no need to attribute malice when there simply wasn't any there.I never claimed there was any. It was just not a proper thing to do and Marc felt the same way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tjguitar 0 Posted June 29, 2008 Share Posted June 29, 2008 hey Mark, no need to attribute malice when there simply wasn't any there.I never claimed there was any. It was just not a proper thing to do and Marc felt the same way.indeed. ANYWAYS, back on topic...I don't know how one can listen to recent scores like Prisoner of Azkaban and Revenge of the Sith, and then come to the conclusion that JW's talent has "declined". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Mark 3,631 Posted June 29, 2008 Share Posted June 29, 2008 me neither. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLUMENKOHL 1,068 Posted June 29, 2008 Share Posted June 29, 2008 His non-technical talents have declined.He can write complex material as well as the Titanic can sink. But since 2004, he hasn't written a single score that can truly capture the imagination with innovative ideas and remarkably complex yet graceful and tidy messages. To put it bluntly, he's gotten sloppy in the communication/creativity/imagination department. Too many times during the course of Crystal Skull for example, I asked myself, what are are all these extra bits saying? What's the point? What is he trying to get across with this? Why does it sound like I've heard it before? Why is it there if it adds nothing to the tapestry of the score.Oh yes, the technical skill is there, but there is little to no meaning it these days. It's like reading a research paper on Quantom Mechanics. Yes! Perfect grammar! Excellent spelling! Fantastic sentence structure! Wonderful diction! Good facts! And yet...there is nothing else really there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcus 390 Posted June 29, 2008 Share Posted June 29, 2008 No, Williams's talent is not in decline, and to state such a thing is fairly nonsensical, as it bespeaks a poor understanding of "talent".What this boils down to, is whether we agree with Williams's creative direction and choices, or not.Craft-wise, Williams is writing things he couldn't have penned two or three decades ago. It seems he is no longer as interested in writing for film, though, save for Spielberg's films, and a few select other projects. This is not only understandable, but also artistically very healthy.It is easy for Williams to write as he did in the 70s and 80s, CoS would be a good case in point. His recent Indy offering shows that he can have great fun with his old clichés, while adding a seemingly effortless technical virtuosity that very few composers can match, if any (and needless to say, I'm not talking about film composers...).Okay, I dunno what just happened...I was simply going to edit my previous post slightly, and I'm now quoting myself... I'm either tired, or something's not quite right...I've also been double and triple posting a bit. Sorry. Could be the keyboard... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henry B 50 Posted June 29, 2008 Share Posted June 29, 2008 I'm disappointed, Marcus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcus 390 Posted June 29, 2008 Share Posted June 29, 2008 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Mark 3,631 Posted June 29, 2008 Share Posted June 29, 2008 And yet...there is nothing else really there.well maybe not for you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam S. 0 Posted June 29, 2008 Share Posted June 29, 2008 Its interesting that for some people his decline is so completely obvious because, so far, 65% of the people answering seem to think he's just as good. Maybe he's not only declining but he's developed the craven ability to trick a majority of his fan base. - Adam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tjguitar 0 Posted June 29, 2008 Share Posted June 29, 2008 Its interesting that for some people his decline is so completely obvious because, so far, 65% of the people answering seem to think he's just as good. Maybe he's not only declining but he's developed the craven ability to trick a majority of his fan base. - AdamYou think that most people are going to think that the bulk of pre-Last Crusade (including all his pre-Jaws stuff) are going to say it's better than than the bulk of post-80's?That is partially what the poll implies.I think there was a great topic on JW's "golden age", which for me is Jaws through Jursasic Park, more or less. Very few clunkers in that period in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam S. 0 Posted June 29, 2008 Share Posted June 29, 2008 The poll isn't explictly laid out like I said - that's true. But that's been the gist of the discussion and a reasonable inference from the results. My only point is the gap between the certainty by some that he's worse and the results which seem to suggest its far from obvious, whatever one's point of view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neimoidian 14 Posted June 29, 2008 Share Posted June 29, 2008 I'm gonna guess the thread was deleted because it was in poor taste to post that info ahead of Intrada's announcement.CorrectThere have been long-lasting topics of poorer taste than that IMO... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke Skywalker 1,796 Posted June 29, 2008 Share Posted June 29, 2008 His "crappy older work" set the tone for the composer he became. Anyone who dismisses it nowhere near the Williams fan they claim to be.His "great late 70's and 80's work" set the tone for the composer he is now. Anyone who dismisses this is nowhere near the Williams fan they claim to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neimoidian 14 Posted June 29, 2008 Share Posted June 29, 2008 His works from 2005 set the tone for the composer he is now. Anyone who dismisses this is nowhere near the Williams fan they claim to be... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted June 29, 2008 Share Posted June 29, 2008 Marc can be as arbitrary as a referee in the Euro Cup when it comes to what stays and what goes.Also, he hates the Polish, he told me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ollie 1,059 Posted June 29, 2008 Share Posted June 29, 2008 His works from 2005 set the tone for the composer he is now. Anyone who dismisses this is nowhere near the Williams fan they claim to be... Yes I think I mentioned that when people were wondering if KOTCS would be composed by 1975 to 1984 Williams or the current version. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke Skywalker 1,796 Posted June 29, 2008 Share Posted June 29, 2008 Go tell Conrad Pope, which i think, knows more about music than most of us.BTW Neimodian's statement is innacurate. He speaks about one year, while both of Us spoke about a period of 10+ years. With only that time (1 year) you cannot extrapolate the future or understand the past. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ollie 1,059 Posted June 29, 2008 Share Posted June 29, 2008 I believe you've missed the point of Neimoidian's statement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted June 29, 2008 Share Posted June 29, 2008 As he so often does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke Skywalker 1,796 Posted June 29, 2008 Share Posted June 29, 2008 I believe you've missed the point of Neimoidian's statement.He is mocking me and i already said his statement is not accurate or whatever the word is.He was unconsciously mocking you too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ollie 1,059 Posted June 29, 2008 Share Posted June 29, 2008 Since I've really only dismissed 3 of his works since 1993 and continue to buy the man's music I don't let it concern me.There's a big difference between throwing a hissy fit and calling older works crappy just because the complete Indy scores haven't been released compared to expressing your opinion that Williams' creativity isn't the same as it was during his peak years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indy4 155 Posted June 29, 2008 Author Share Posted June 29, 2008 His "crappy older work" set the tone for the composer he became. Anyone who dismisses it nowhere near the Williams fan they claim to be.His "great late 70's and 80's work" set the tone for the composer he is now. Anyone who dismisses this is nowhere near the Williams fan they claim to be.I agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henry B 50 Posted June 29, 2008 Share Posted June 29, 2008 I don't get it. Yes, Williams' current style is based on his old style. Does that make it better? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koray Savas 2,251 Posted June 29, 2008 Share Posted June 29, 2008 What are we arguing about here?John Williams' style hasn't changed, it never did. He has a continuous filmography, there are no highlight years, IMO. He has hits and misses between Daddy-O and Indy 4. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red 75 Posted June 29, 2008 Share Posted June 29, 2008 John Williams' style hasn't changed,Yes it has. If you can't grasp that then I don't know what to tell you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henry B 50 Posted June 29, 2008 Share Posted June 29, 2008 Williams' style hasn't changed and neither has John Barry's! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koray Savas 2,251 Posted June 29, 2008 Share Posted June 29, 2008 Schindler's List to Munich, that is over 10 years of the same composing style. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henry B 50 Posted June 29, 2008 Share Posted June 29, 2008 That isn't the same style at all. Just because there's solo string work and diatonic minor pieces? Similarities between the suspenseful music and "Nacht Aktion," perhaps? These are superficial comparisons.Besides, I don't find the gulf between Schindler's List and the present day as wide as the gulf between Temple of Doom and Last Crusade. There was a huge change between those two scores. I haven't heard The River; maybe I should so that I could better understand what happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Mark 3,631 Posted June 30, 2008 Share Posted June 30, 2008 The River is the last opus in the "bluesy" category. But there is one grand sweeping operatic track in it "The Ancestral Home"the answers lie not in that score ,but in Presumed Innocent ,Always and Born on the Fourth of July ,that is when I noticed a change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam S. 0 Posted June 30, 2008 Share Posted June 30, 2008 There's an evolution in his sound overall but, then again, something like Missouri Breaks is completely different stylistically than Star Wars which was written about a year later. You have to really know JW to even know that they're the same person. I know JW has said he doesn't have a style which is my way of thinking about it as well. His technique has evolved but if he does a completely different project the scores can be about as different stylistically as can be while still being the same person. Presumed Innocent compared to Home Alone in the same year for example and there's very little stylistically in common with the two though, again, there's a kind of abstract voice or technique that he brings to the table that we recognize if we've heard a lot of music. The style comes into the equation for me if we're talking about his big orchestral scores which tend to share more in common with eachother.- Adam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neimoidian 14 Posted June 30, 2008 Share Posted June 30, 2008 I believe you've missed the point of Neimoidian's statement.He is mocking me and i already said his statement is not accurate or whatever the word is.He was unconsciously mocking you too.I never mock unconsciously And yes, I was mocking , but on the other hand, it's true, that certain elements introduced in his music in 2005 are being developed in his later work(s). There have been several scores of his (during his career) that became highly influential on many of his future projects.Marc can be as arbitrary as a referee in the Euro Cup when it comes to what stays and what goes.Also, he hates the Polish, he told me!Probably not without good reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salacius 7 Posted July 4, 2008 Share Posted July 4, 2008 Platinum Era:1989 - Born on the Fourth of July 1989 - Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade 1988 - The Accidental Tourist 1987 - Empire of the Sun 1987 - The Witches of Eastwick 1986 - SpaceCamp 1984 - The River1984 - Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom 1983 - Return of the Jedi 1982 - Monsignor1982 - E.T. The Extra-Terrestrial1982 - Yes, Giorgio (Theme)1981 - Heartbeeps 1981 - Raiders of the Lost Ark1980 - The Empire Strikes Back 1979 - 1941 1979 - Dracula 1978 - Superman - The Movie 1978 - Jaws 21978 - The Fury 1977 - Close Encounters of the Third Kind 1977 - Star Wars 1977 - Black Sunday 1976 - Midway1976 - The Missouri Breaks1976 - Family Plot 1975 - The Eiger Sanction 1975 - Jaws I await another classic with huge anticipation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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