The Official Indiana Jones Pitch Correction thread

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Thanx.

[fommes 153]

Here are my Temple of Doom pitch corrections, in Audacity's format.

This is not done with an advanced pitch correction tool, but rather manually, by aligning the tracks with the DVD rear channels. For the new tracks, this gives a result that goes from approximate to more or less correct. For the album tracks, it is a rather precise method.

The album tracks:

Fast Streets of Shanghai: -0,264

Slalom on Mt Humol: -0,258

Short Round’s Theme: -0,272

Nocturnal Activities: -0,264

Bug Tunnel & Death Trap: -0,249

The Temple of Doom: -0,243

Children in Chains: -0,294

Slave Children’s Crusade: -0,258

Mine Car Chase: -0,247

End Credits: -0,239

The previously unreleased tracks:

Indy Negotiates: OK.

The Brawl: pretty much OK.

Out of Fuel: difficult to determine. It's the ending that counts of course, because of the transition to Slalom on Mt Humol, and that's buried under the SFX. I think it's pretty much OK.

The Old Priest’s Tale: + 1,849

The Scroll & To Pankot Palace: sounds pretty much OK, didn't bother with this; not sure if the film version is the same take.

The Secret Passage: OK.

Short Round Escapes: pretty much OK, perhaps a bit too fast, but didn't bother with it.

Saving Willie: (last part:) approx. + 2,242

Short Round Helps: + 1,277

Water!: (last part:) + 1,621

Sword Trick: + 1,078

British Relief: very difficult to determine, I needed the pitch of the last part, for the edit, and ended up speeding it up by 1,5, which is approx. the average of two comparison attempts. If anybody else know a more precise correction for this track, let me know.

Return to the Village: approx. + 1,244

Finally:

- If you use the RPO rerecording, change tempo (not pitch) by 3,209.

- All the Lego files only have the first part of the rope bridge music (looped in all three files). The first half of TD Kalistemple B Qui is best. I ended up cutting the first three or four measures (which pretty much all the versions have some sort of small SFX on, unfortunately; actually, one of them has an almost clean version of those seconds, but then the edit to the Kalistemple B Qui Lego file is too jarring). For the rest, the DVD rear channel rip can be used.

[Datameister 2,044]

Based on the pitches in the region 1 TOD DVD, I made the following speed changes in Audacity to the following cues. I can't guarantee their accuracy, but their pitch and duration seem correct to me. Note that they are indeed percentages.

Indy Negotiates: +0.421%

Fast Streets of Shanghai: -0.294%

Slalom on Mt. Humol: -0.509%

The Old Priest: +2.04% (whew!)

Saving Willie: +1.177%

Short Round Helps: +1.136%

The Sword Trick: +1.245%

I don't think I made any other pitch corrections...the others should be fine, I think, or at least close enough to not be at all perceptible for anyone without absolute pitch.

[Jay 37,369]

The Old Priest: +2.04% (whew!)

That explains why the cue is shorter in the film!

[Henry B 50]

So it looks like these pitch correction figures are all over the place. I think the problem is that not everyone realizes some of the tracks on the Concord set are made up of multiple cues and takes (this is very obvious in "Map/Out of Fuel"). This makes it very difficult to figure out. You basically have to get your isolated music - whether it's the DCC set, a DVD rip, whatever - and match the entire thing up, not just look at the total time. For example, I think that "The Idol Temple" is made up of multiple takes because if you just match the overall length to the same segment to the DCC you'll see that it doesn't match up within. You have take the beginning of a cue, adjust the pitch until it matches, then note where the match ends and figure out where the splice of takes is, then work on the next section...

I've also come around to the DCC side of thinking. I was thrilled by the clarity of the Concord set when I first listened to it, but I must have been tricked. Many of the album mixes are brighter and more dynamic than the film mixes (which the DCC uses), yet the quality itself isn't actually very good. I mistook treble boosts for clarity. If you listen carefully you can hear that the material from the Concord set is more deteriorated than the material used for the DCC. Think about it. If you've been to an orchestral concert, which CD sounds more like it? The Concord Raiders is far too crisp to be true. Fortunately, Temple of Doom and Last Crusade don't suffer from this harsh EQing, only a little dynamic range compression. And, of course, the pitch problems...

On that note, I'd like to EQ the unreleased music from the Concord set and drop its volume to get it in line with the DCC cues. I'll post my findings soon.

[Datameister 2,044]

Yeah, I know I mostly didn't bother with the different speeds in different parts of the tracks. I was able to get it "good enough" just using single figures for whole tracks, for the most part.

I have mixed feelings - no pun intended - about the discrepancies between the DCC and Concord mixes. Overall, I like the brighter sound, I suppose, but I don't like the overmixing of the cimbalom in Raiders, and I still have somewhat of a soft spot for the DCC mixes of that score.

[Henry B 50]

I like some of the album mixes, "Map Room" especially, but with that quality it's not worth it. Wait a sec, I can just track down the original album, fix the pitch and use it. Funny! An LP from 1981 (and its CD counterpart) sounds better than a CD issued in 2008 with the latest in digital restoration technology.

[phbart 609]

If "Desert Chase" and "Uncovering the Ark" were complete, I would discard my DCC copy without a doubt...

I much prefer the Concord mix and I don't think in anyway that it's more deteriorated than the DCC.

The DCC edition has limited frequency range (it only goes at about 19 to 20kHz). Concord goes all the way up...

[Henry B 50]

I don't mean to be accusational, but didn't you even prefer the sound on that leaked prototype Raiders?

[phbart 609]

Hum, partially... I liked the enhanced bass, but the treble is weak.

The funny thing is that I liked "Washington Men" from the leaked version better than the Concord...

(EDIT)

When I said I like "Washington Men", I meant the music...

[Henry B 50]

Perhaps that's because the Concord version is so bright and hissy it loses its ominous quality. It sounds great in the film. Too bad that representation has never made it to CD, huh?

I also noticed something interesting. Except for volume and dynamic range compression, "The Raiders March" on the Concord set (disc 5) sounds pretty much identical to "The Raiders March" on the original album (after accounting for pitch). Now compare it to "Washington Ending & Raiders March." Sounds pretty different, right?

[phbart 609]

Yes... the hiss is almost as loud as the mini-choral...

I didn't read the Laurent Bouzereau FSM interview, but I think Jason LeBlanc said that for some tracks, the original album masters was used... I think that was the case with the shorter Raiders March...

[Henry B 50]

That's right. No wonder it seems some of this set sounds worse than other parts. I'll have to figure out which cues come from the album masters, which sound quite good.

[Datameister 2,044]

Weighing in on the "Washington Men" issue - I love the darker mix in the leaked version, but there's even more hissing in that than in the Concord version. Perhaps I'll fiddle with the EQ on the Concord version to get something just slightly brighter than the leaked version.

[phbart 609]

The leaked version has more hiss than the Concord?

Don't you mean otherwise?

[Henry B 50]

He might be talking about the old Raiders boot that's been around for years... very poor quality, certainly no reason to use it.

[Datameister 2,044]

Oh, are you guys talking about a different version without the hiss? I didn't realize that was out there. And if it is...hmmm....anyone wanna PM it to me?

[fommes 153]

I think the problem is that not everyone realizes some of the tracks on the Concord set are made up of multiple cues and takes (this is very obvious in "Map/Out of Fuel"). This makes it very difficult to figure out. You basically have to get your isolated music - whether it's the DCC set, a DVD rip, whatever - and match the entire thing up, not just look at the total time.

No, I myself did realize this. It's also quite obvious if you take a closer look at it when aligning the album with the DVD rip.

If this was the case, I didn't bother to correct the full track - that's probably quite impossible - what mattered are the transitions, so for instance for Saving Willie, I matched only the ending of the track to the film.

Based on the pitches in the region 1 TOD DVD, I made the following speed changes in Audacity to the following cues. I can't guarantee their accuracy, but their pitch and duration seem correct to me. Note that they are indeed percentages.

Indy Negotiates: +0.421%

Fast Streets of Shanghai: -0.294%

Slalom on Mt. Humol: -0.509%

The Old Priest: +2.04% (whew!)

Saving Willie: +1.177%

Short Round Helps: +1.136%

The Sword Trick: +1.245%

Most of it pretty much affirms my corrections; but Slalom is definitely wrong I think (unless the original album track is wrong in pitch; I aligned the original album tracks with the Concord tracks rather minutely).

[A24 4,338]

I like some of the album mixes, "Map Room" especially, but with that quality it's not worth it. Wait a sec, I can just track down the original album, fix the pitch and use it. Funny! An LP from 1981 (and its CD counterpart) sounds better than a CD issued in 2008 with the latest in digital restoration technology.

I still wonder who and what is responsible for the remastering. Good remastering means restoring to its original state, not adding what wasn't there. Just listen to the horrible loud buzzing of the cellos when they are playing in the high register and tell me that's the way they should sound. You can't change or overcook the colors of a Rembrandt painting either, now can you? The fact they messed up the pitch too tells me this project isn't entirely handled well.

Alex

[Jay 37,369]

Yes... the hiss is almost as loud as the mini-choral...

I didn't read the Laurent Bouzereau FSM interview, but I think Jason LeBlanc said that for some tracks, the original album masters was used... I think that was the case with the shorter Raiders March...

From the interview:

A variety of sources for the music were available to Bouzereau. "In addition to the OST masters," he says, "for Raiders we used the 2" 24-track music master, for Doom the 1/4" digital 4-track left/center/right elements, and for Crusade the 1/2" analog 4-track masters. The condition of some of the material did present challenges, but that's not surprising when working with recordings this old." Interestingly enough, it was Raiders that was the most challenging to remaster.

Williams had the final say on all creative choices and decisions. Spielberg and Lucasfilm also reviewed and approved decisions, making the project a "wonderful collaborate process," according to Bouzereau. "John was extremely generous and complimentary on the final product," he says. "And as a fan of the music, I'm forever grateful to him for allowing this project to happen."

[phbart 609]

Were they lazy enough to remaster the previously available music and ended up using album masters instead? Or the material wasn't actually available?

[Wojo 2,453]

I find that the incorrect pitch only really bothers me when I am familiar enough with the music to notice, namely comparing the Concord Raiders to the DCC Raiders that I've had for ten years. I did correct them because the Concord Raiders music always felt uncomfortably sped up anyways that I didn't like it much. But when it comes to the smorgasbord of "new" material for Raiders and TOD, I don't really care about pitch because I haven't overanalyzed either movie to the point where I notice a discrepancy, so it doesn't bother me.

[Datameister 2,044]

I find that the incorrect pitch only really bothers me when I am familiar enough with the music to notice, namely comparing the Concord Raiders to the DCC Raiders that I've had for ten years. I did correct them because the Concord Raiders music always felt uncomfortably sped up anyways that I didn't like it much. But when it comes to the smorgasbord of "new" material for Raiders and TOD, I don't really care about pitch because I haven't overanalyzed either movie to the point where I notice a discrepancy, so it doesn't bother me.

Well, the pitch is definitely a problem when you have two cues that were transferred at different speeds and that need to be edited together. Then you hear a noticeable change in tuning, and it's very distracting. Sometimes you can kinda brush it off...but then there are cues like "The Old Priest", which runs directly into the DVD-based "The Child Returns", and the difference in tuning is absolutely terrible.

[Wojo 2,453]

That's because "The Old Priest" wasn't used in the movies. It was used in the LEGO game, but it definitely features thematic material used in the movie. I think you meant "Indy and the Villagers" which does run directly into whatever you want to call the DVD rip to the Fortune and Glory segment.

I already edited everything from Indy Negotiates to the unreleased music where Indy shows up in the village, including my own rather nice hybrid of the movie and Concord versions of the Map extension music, and don't really feel like adjusting it to make pitch corrections.

[Jay 37,369]

It's "The Old Priest's Tale" that wasn't in the movie; "The Old Priest" was

"The Old Priest" = Indy And The Villagers

"The Child Returns = "Fortune And Glory"

http://www.indianajonesmusic.com/2008/11/i...-doom-1984.html

[Datameister 2,044]

That's because "The Old Priest" wasn't used in the movies. It was used in the LEGO game, but it definitely features thematic material used in the movie. I think you meant "Indy and the Villagers" which does run directly into whatever you want to call the DVD rip to the Fortune and Glory segment.

Nope, I definitely meant "The Old Priest" - I'm talking in cue names. It was indeed used in the movie, and it was on the Concord release as "Indy and the Villagers." You're thinking of "The Old Priest's Tale", which was the unused cue found only in the Lego game. I don't know if the speed for that one is correct or not, though I really ought to check. I'll get back to you on that. =)

EDIT: Haha, Jason beat me to it. Figures. ;D But yeah, I'm still gonna check if "The Old Priest's Tale" from the game needs its speed changed.

[Wojo 2,453]

Oh...Well I deleted my Indy music from this computer so I didn't have it to examine. My mistake if I came across sounding half-cocked.

Did you get the Fortune and Glory from the editing packages? I don't remember seeing it in there and being puzzled as to why, I had to get it from the DVD, tweeting birds and all, which made me reluctant to have it connect the Indy and the Village People track to the Short Round track.

[Pieter Boelen 740]

Wasn't it on the Editing Package as "The Child Returns" or something like that?

[Wojo 2,453]

I don't remember what revision I got so I can't remember. I just know that the Tribute to Vernon track I got in mine had dialogue and other background noise mumbling throughout, making it practically unusable.

[Datameister 2,044]

Well, I don't have any of the editing packages, Wojo. The track I call "Fortune and Glory" in my album comprises "The Old Priest" ("Indy and the Villagers"), the version of "The Child Returns" from the region 1 DVD, and "The Elephant Ride" ("Short Round's Theme"), all edited solely by me.

By the way, I just checked the pitch of the opening note of "The Old Priest's Tale" against an Audacity-generated tone of 311.13 Hz, the frequency given here as an Eb, which the score says is the first note of the cue. There seemed to be a slight tuning discrepancy, so I played around a little with it in Audacity, and decided to implement a speed change of +0.95%. I can't guarantee the accuracy of that value, since all I'm doing is eyeballing it with my ear - woo hoo, mixed metaphors! - and I don't have anything to check the duration against. If anyone else wants to give it a shot...well, the more, the merrier!

EDIT: And regarding noise in DVD rips in general - I'm rather fortunate in that I don't mind SFX and dialogue echoes enough for me to not include them in the albums themselves. I certainly prefer clean tracks by a HUGE margin, but if all that's available is a DVD rip with some SFX, and if the music is good, and if the music is at least audible in the mix, I usually include it.

[Wojo 2,453]

Wow that sounds intense. But IMHO it's silly to pitch correct a music file from a video game that was used only in that video game, never in the movie, and was ripped from the video game exactly as it was used in the video game. Therefore the pitch of what you have ought to match perfectly to its original presentation, being said video game. Adjusting the pitch to make it fit better into what you expect the themes ought to sound like or to where you want to place the music in your collection is unnecessary.

[Datameister 2,044]

There's nothing silly about it - because professional orchestras generally play in tune, it's reasonable to assume that the original performance of "The Old Priest's Tale" was also in tune, by and large. If they transferred the tape at the wrong speed for the game and thus threw it out of tune, it makes perfect sense to revert it back to how it was originally recorded, both for the sake of accuracy AND to avoid making the track sound out-of-tune with the rest of the album.

BUT - maybe never mind about the percentage I gave. I'm not so sure now about that value. I gotta keep trying.

[Wojo 2,453]

Have fun

[Jay 37,369]

Oh...Well I deleted my Indy music from this computer so I didn't have it to examine. My mistake if I came across sounding half-cocked.

Did you get the Fortune and Glory from the editing packages? I don't remember seeing it in there and being puzzled as to why, I had to get it from the DVD, tweeting birds and all, which made me reluctant to have it connect the Indy and the Village People track to the Short Round track.

Of course it's in the editing packages, as 3m2 The Child Returns of course.

http://www.indianajonesmusic.com/2008/11/i...-doom-1984.html

I don't remember what revision I got so I can't remember. I just know that the Tribute to Vernon track I got in mine had dialogue and other background noise mumbling throughout, making it practically unusable.

That's the best you can get from the film. AirmanJerm recorded a great version with his band in the "Temple of Doom cue names" thread you can download

since all I'm doing is eyeballing it with my ear - woo hoo, mixed metaphors!

LOL

[Wojo 2,453]

Thanks, I did not know that. It's not easy being stupid, but I manage.

[Datameister 2,044]

Beneath the Floors (boot in current editing package): -1.3959%

[Wojo 2,453]

Ok, I found The Child Returns in the editing package. I think I dismissed it as having too many SFX, then listened to the DVD which was worse but by then didn't mind, so now what's in the package sounds great.

The problem came when I pasted it to the end of The Old Priest. It sounded terrible! Do I have to adjust the pitch of either The Old Priest, The Child Returns (or both), and then also Short Round's Theme, in order to stitch these three tracks together properly?

[Datameister 2,044]

The problem came when I pasted it to the end of The Old Priest. It sounded terrible! Do I have to adjust the pitch of either The Old Priest, The Child Returns (or both), and then also Short Round's Theme, in order to stitch these three tracks together properly?

"The Old Priest" requires a speed (not just pitch) change of +2.04%, according to my calculations. It's the biggest speed discrepancy I've come across so far in the Concord release - it'll sound REALLY bad if you don't make the change, but it's fine if you take care of it before editing the tracks together. "The Child Returns" is from the DVD, which means it doesn't require speed changes (as long as it's region 1/NTSC). "Short Round's Theme" from the Concord disc doesn't seem to require any real speed changes, either.

[Henry B 50]

All speed changes should be concurrent with pitch changes.

[Datameister 2,044]

You know, it's interesting with all the talk of sound quality differences between the DCC and Concord releases of Raiders...while I do hear a difference, it's not nearly as big as I imagined it to be. What does make a big (if intermittent) difference to me, however, is the relative volume levels of the different instruments. Generally speaking, I prefer the DCC is that respect. The Concord release has the cimbalom mixed too loudly, for instance. Then there are parts such as the end of "Flight from Peru" when the strings overpower the horns' statement of the Raiders March B theme and the lovely harp/piano/chimes notes at the very end. The DCC release doesn't have those problems. One nice thing about the Concord mix, however, is the way the tubas blend with the orchestra much more nicely. Every time the tubas have an entrance on the DCC, it's very audible and distracting, but they're perfect on the Concord disc.

[Wojo 2,453]

I did a speed change of +2.04% using Audacity on "The Old Priest" and it sounded a lot better when glued to the "Child Returns" track.

[Simon R. 10]

Uhm, no matter what you do, digitally changing the pitch of the CD audio tracks will degrade the audio quality. So which do you prefer. A pitch -8/+8 cents too low/high, derived from an analogue source, which means audio quality wasn't really degraded, or a listen to a new "correct" pitch, where the overall audio quality is lower...

[Wojo 2,453]

Eh, we're all bored and need hobbies. Tweaking the Indy box set to the nth degree is better than a lot of other crap we could do.

[Datameister 2,044]

Uhm, no matter what you do, digitally changing the pitch of the CD audio tracks will degrade the audio quality. So which do you prefer. A pitch -8/+8 cents too low/high, derived from an analogue source, which means audio quality wasn't really degraded, or a listen to a new "correct" pitch, where the overall audio quality is lower...

If the entire album were the same pitch, I wouldn't give a crap. But since there are tuning differences between tracks that are significant enough to be noticeable even during casual listening, I personally find it very worthwhile to correct those. The drop in sound quality is negligible as long as the tempo and pitch are both changed together. And I'm curious...why is "correct" in quotes?

[Trent B 337]

I thought I'd give this a good ol' bump. Hey Johnnyboy it's been a while since I've asked but have you finished compiling the TOD list? Or has anyone else managed to correct the rest of the cues for the pitch issues? I know Datamiester corrected a few but I want to know about the others. I know some here compare them with the DVD, but not sure what region. If it's another region besides Region 1 then the pitch for those DVD rips are off.

[Datameister 2,044]

I would certainly hope that anyone doing comparisons to the DVDs would be using the region 1 discs.

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

I do believe region 3 is NTSC as well.

My copy of Casino Royale is, anyway.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Region 3 is NTSC.

[Trent B 337]

Okay a slight bump here has anyone managed to correct these cues from Raiders Of The Lost Ark yet?

Washington Men/Indy's Home, Bad Dates, and Indy Rides the Statue.

[Trent B 337]

I just realized this and this may or may not have been pointed out, however, everyone thinks the whole piece from "Return To The Villagers" that's heard in the film is missing from the Concord set when it is NOT. Listen to track 22. End Credits on Disc 2 and specifically about 0:38, it's THERE just orchestrated slightly different. I think what's on the Concord set is the intended version.