indy4 155 Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 But do you seriously deny the resemblence between "Seeing is Believing" and "Davy Jones?" It may well be a Morricone reference, I wouldn't know, but the fact is it sounds VERY similiar to the Silvestri's cue. Heck, I could plunk out the notes on a piano right now and (after adjusting the key) they would be almost exactly the same.Yes, considering "Davy Jones" uses the music box and organs as heard in the film, and that "Seeing Is Believing" has none of that. Well, I wouldn't know. Does The Polar Express have a scene with a music box and organs?I'm talking about melody wise, not instrumentation. After all, this is a thread about melody. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koray Savas 2,251 Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 Slightly. I don't think the music box jingle is close to the instrument used in Polar Express. Once it moves into strangely heavy material, then it sounds awkward. But then half way through it goes into traditional Christmas music. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indy4 155 Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 Slightly. I don't think the music box jingle is close to the instrument used in Polar Express.Yes, but I'm not talking about instrumentation.But then half way through it goes into traditional Christmas music.Yeah, I didn't mean that part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wojo 2,453 Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 "Don't try to be a great man. Just be a man, and let history make its own judgments."It's rhetorical nonsense.So nobody writes good melodies and nobody writes melodies. People write melodies that are liked or disliked in their present days, but their goodness or badness can only be objectively determined once everyone who ever knew the person has died and history can gauge them for what they were.I'm not sure I like that argument, but suit yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Williamsfan301 11 Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 It doesn't me Zimmer does not write good melodies. But, that's something for historians to decide.Sooo...historians determine who writes good melodies? Right then...have fun with this discussion... No, again, you're going back to the first part of the statement "Everyone likes it, therefore it's good". Socrates would have argued thats not true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Datameister 2,044 Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 It doesn't me Zimmer does not write good melodies. But, that's something for historians to decide.Sooo...historians determine who writes good melodies? Right then...have fun with this discussion... No, again, you're going back to the first part of the statement "Everyone likes it, therefore it's good". Socrates would have argued thats not true.1. All I did was rephrase what you said. Check the quote again.2. I don't care what Socrates thought. He wasn't infallible any more than I am. How about you present your own thoughts instead of his?3. As I've said many times in this thread, there is no such thing as melody that can be objectively, conclusively defined as "good." Every human being on the freaking PLANET could enjoy it, and it still wouldn't be "good." It would simply have very unusually wide appeal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Williamsfan301 11 Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 It doesn't me Zimmer does not write good melodies. But, that's something for historians to decide.Sooo...historians determine who writes good melodies? Right then...have fun with this discussion... No, again, you're going back to the first part of the statement "Everyone likes it, therefore it's good". Socrates would have argued thats not true.1. All I did was rephrase what you said. Check the quote again.2. I don't care what Socrates thought. He wasn't infallible any more than I am. How about you present your own thoughts instead of his?3. As I've said many times in this thread, there is no such thing as melody that can be objectively, conclusively defined as "good." Every human being on the freaking PLANET could enjoy it, and it still wouldn't be "good." It would simply have very unusually wide appeal.You're still arguing that for a melody to be good, everyone likes it, which is simply not true. Melodies are inherently good or bad. It is because of their inherent state that people like them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Datameister 2,044 Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 You're still arguing that for a melody to be good, everyone likes it, which is simply not true.I'm...not. I am truly perplexed as to where you're reading these words. But in case there's still some confusion, let me be clear:BEING WELL-LOVED DOES NOT MAKE A MELODY GOOD.Hopefully that's sufficiently clear, because I really have no way of restating that more lucidly. Melodies are inherently good or bad. It is because of their inherent state that people like them.No, they are not. They have complex combinations of objective attributes (i.e. not subjective, moralistic ones like "good" or "bad") that make them very appealing to some people, not at all appealing to other people, and somewhere in between to still others. A given person will like a given melody because of the types of music they were exposed to at a young age, because of the amount of musical knowledge they have about one or more musical traditions, and (to a certain extent, presumably) because of genetic factors beyond his or her control. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hlao-roo 389 Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 BEING WELL-LOVED DOES NOT MAKE A MELODY GOOD.So you're saying that melodies are good only because people like them, right? Just so you know, Socrates would not be pleased. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Datameister 2,044 Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 So you're saying that melodies are good only because people like them, right? Just so you know, Socrates would not be pleased. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wojo 2,453 Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 Twirl, Stacy, twirl! For the love of all that is holy, twirl! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Williamsfan301 11 Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 Honestly, this is a great debate. The whole reason I started us on this tangent was because I believe the whole concept of this thread is flawed. This was all going down the road of "Well, I like Hans Zimmer and I think he does write good melodies" or "I don't like Hans Zimmer and I think he's melodies suck" - which means nothing is going to be solved. There's no objectivity. That's why I started this I guess, to inject some objectivity into the thread. So, in any case. Nice debate. Bravo! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quintus 5,399 Posted January 23, 2009 Author Share Posted January 23, 2009 I still think he writes a mean melody, from time to time. If lots of people like a melody, then it is a good melody. Of course it is. I couldn't give flying f**k how simple or complex it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ollie 1,059 Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 I'm...not. I am truly perplexed as to where you're reading these words. But in case there's still some confusion, let me be clear:BEING WELL-LOVED DOES NOT MAKE A MELODY GOOD.Hopefully that's sufficiently clear, because I really have no way of restating that more lucidly. Yes I believe I mentioned something similar a few posts before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Williamsfan301 11 Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 I still think he writes a mean melody, from time to time. If lots of people like a melody, then it is a good melody. Of course it is.Lots of people like facism too. Doesn't make it good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quintus 5,399 Posted January 23, 2009 Author Share Posted January 23, 2009 It is true Hitler was a bastard, but you gotta give him his jew. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Datameister 2,044 Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 That's not funny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quintus 5,399 Posted January 23, 2009 Author Share Posted January 23, 2009 When someone compares the virtues of a catchy tune to social trends within a political system, I answer in likewise ridiculous fashion or I don't answer at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ollie 1,059 Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 Stacy has a set of legs on her that are just fantastic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henry B 50 Posted January 24, 2009 Share Posted January 24, 2009 I still think he writes a mean melody, from time to time. If lots of people like a melody, then it is a good melody. Of course it is.Lots of people like facism too. Doesn't make it good.... Please, this is just a case of "I'm right, you're wrong." What makes you think you possess above all others the insight to know which melodies are good and which are bad? Are you the smartest person on Earth? Are you God? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koray Savas 2,251 Posted January 24, 2009 Share Posted January 24, 2009 There is no God! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Crichton 4 Posted January 24, 2009 Share Posted January 24, 2009 There is only Jerry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Williamsfan301 11 Posted January 24, 2009 Share Posted January 24, 2009 I still think he writes a mean melody, from time to time. If lots of people like a melody, then it is a good melody. Of course it is.Lots of people like facism too. Doesn't make it good.... Please, this is just a case of "I'm right, you're wrong." What makes you think you possess above all others the insight to know which melodies are good and which are bad? Are you the smartest person on Earth? Are you God?It's not a case of "I'm right, you're wrong" at all. I'm just pointing out the Euphryo Dilemma that "good" vs. "bad" is intrinsic and that just because everyone likes something - anything - it doesn't make it good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henry B 50 Posted January 24, 2009 Share Posted January 24, 2009 It's not a case of "I'm right, you're wrong" at all. I'm just pointing out the Euphryo Dilemma that "good" vs. "bad" is intrinsic and that just because everyone likes something - anything - it doesn't make it good.How can the essential goodness or badness of a musical melody be quantified? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hlao-roo 389 Posted January 24, 2009 Share Posted January 24, 2009 *Sigh* This is dumb. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Williamsfan301 11 Posted January 24, 2009 Share Posted January 24, 2009 It's not a case of "I'm right, you're wrong" at all. I'm just pointing out the Euphryo Dilemma that "good" vs. "bad" is intrinsic and that just because everyone likes something - anything - it doesn't make it good.How can the essential goodness or badness of a musical melody be quantified?Good question. So, there's the next question of the debate. If there is essential goodness or badness to a melody, how is that quantified? Since you posed it, what do you think, Henry? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henry B 50 Posted January 24, 2009 Share Posted January 24, 2009 I don't think there is essential goodness or badness to a melody. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Datameister 2,044 Posted January 24, 2009 Share Posted January 24, 2009 Next question? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koray Savas 2,251 Posted January 24, 2009 Share Posted January 24, 2009 Good and bad are just words used by people to express their own personal opinions. Just because someone says something is good or bad, doesn't make it a fact. The amount of people that say it is irrelevant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Datameister 2,044 Posted January 24, 2009 Share Posted January 24, 2009 Good and bad are just words used by people to express their own personal opinions. Just because someone says something is good or bad, doesn't make it true. The amount of people that say is irrelevant.The problem comes in when you have a discussion that goes something like this:"Such-and-such is a good score.""No, you're wrong. Such-and-such is not a good score."Happens all the time here, and it suggests that there is an intrinsic, objective level of goodness in a piece of music, when there quite simply is NOT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quintus 5,399 Posted January 24, 2009 Author Share Posted January 24, 2009 There is only Jerry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Williamsfan301 11 Posted January 24, 2009 Share Posted January 24, 2009 Good and bad are just words used by people to express their own personal opinions. Just because someone says something is good or bad, doesn't make it true. The amount of people that say is irrelevant.The problem comes in when you have a discussion that goes something like this:"Such-and-such is a good score.""No, you're wrong. Such-and-such is not a good score."Happens all the time here, and it suggests that there is an intrinsic, objective level of goodness in a piece of music, when there quite simply is NOT.Ah, but there is! Now, again, I know the answer, but I want to see if anyone here comes up with it.The statement "there is no objective level of goodness in a piece of music" is a copout. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Datameister 2,044 Posted January 24, 2009 Share Posted January 24, 2009 Ah, but there is! Now, again, I know the answer, but I want to see if anyone here comes up with it.Your condescension is infuriating, especially when you're positing such a ridiculous idea. I'm done with this discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Penna 3,696 Posted January 24, 2009 Share Posted January 24, 2009 Good and bad are just words used by people to express their own personal opinions. Just because someone says something is good or bad, doesn't make it true. The amount of people that say is irrelevant.The problem comes in when you have a discussion that goes something like this:"Such-and-such is a good score.""No, you're wrong. Such-and-such is not a good score."Happens all the time here, and it suggests that there is an intrinsic, objective level of goodness in a piece of music, when there quite simply is NOT.Ah, but there is! Now, again, I know the answer, but I want to see if anyone here comes up with it.The statement "there is no objective level of goodness in a piece of music" is a copout.It's just about taste people...Person 'A' thinks Last Crusade is a great score, person 'J' doesn't for whatever reason. Long argument ensues involving plenty of swearing. Point is someone finds something in the music that they enjoy, and the other doesn't. That's life.It wouldn't be a problem here if it wasn't for the attitudes of those who feel strongly in one direction, ending in either direct insults, or wording posts that suggest their opinion is shared by everyone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted January 24, 2009 Share Posted January 24, 2009 F*ck me, you think you are better then the rest of us? Pull your head out of your f*cking arse and smell piss you are wallowing in! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Penna 3,696 Posted January 24, 2009 Share Posted January 24, 2009 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Williamsfan301 11 Posted January 24, 2009 Share Posted January 24, 2009 Ah, but there is! Now, again, I know the answer, but I want to see if anyone here comes up with it.Your condescension is infuriating, especially when you're positing such a ridiculous idea. I'm done with this discussion.I'm sorry if you found that condescending; it wasn't meant to be. But, there is such a thing as "good" and "bad" in melody. If that was not the case, every piece of music ever written would be a hit and we all know that is not the case. To say that there is no such thing as a "good" melody or a "bad" melody is a very PC cop out. The only idea I'm injected into this discussion is that if a melody is good, it will be liked. A melody being liked, does not make it good. Which is why no one here agrees that Hans Zimmer writes a good melody. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koray Savas 2,251 Posted January 24, 2009 Share Posted January 24, 2009 It's all personal opinion. Your theory contradicts itself. "If a melody is good, it will be liked." Therefore if it is liked, it has to be good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Penna 3,696 Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 The only idea I'm injected into this discussion is that if a melody is good, it will be liked. A melody being liked, does not make it good. Which is why no one here agrees that Hans Zimmer writes a good melody.I agree that he writes a good melody. What philosophical twist of words are you gonna come up with that proves my own opinion wrong? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Parker 3,040 Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 Hey, you are listening to "Milk", Rich. How is that going for you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Penna 3,696 Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 I like most of it actually, against my pre-listen opinion. I could probably get used to the sax. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Williamsfan301 11 Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 The only idea I'm injected into this discussion is that if a melody is good, it will be liked. A melody being liked, does not make it good. Which is why no one here agrees that Hans Zimmer writes a good melody.I agree that he writes a good melody. What philosophical twist of words are you gonna come up with that proves my own opinion wrong?None, because you're right. He does write good melodies. I'm by no means a Zimmer fan, but he does write good melodies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Parker 3,040 Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 I warn you, though, some Tracks are remarkably short ("Dog Poo" being the shortest), and the Saxophone takes a few listens to get used to. I see you like "New Hope".EDIT: None, because you're right. He does write good melodies. I'm by no means a Zimmer fan, but he does write good melodies.Wait, so now he is correct because you agree with him? I do not understand, not after this huge "objectivity versus subjectivity" debate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Williamsfan301 11 Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 It's all personal opinion. Your theory contradicts itself. "If a melody is good, it will be liked." Therefore if it is liked, it has to be good.No, it's not a contradiction at all. The condition of the melody being good will cause it to be liked. Read what you wrote, Koray. In your reversal of my statement, the predetermined condition of the melody never changes. What I'm injecting into this discussion is that something is not good just BECAUSE it is liked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Penna 3,696 Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 The only idea I'm injected into this discussion is that if a melody is good, it will be liked. A melody being liked, does not make it good. Which is why no one here agrees that Hans Zimmer writes a good melody.I agree that he writes a good melody. What philosophical twist of words are you gonna come up with that proves my own opinion wrong?None, because you're right. He does write good melodies. I'm by no means a Zimmer fan, but he does write good melodies.Umm, so what the hell was the 'injection' in your last post going on about?Nick - yeah, I've noticed the short tracks, and it means I long for more developed versions of some ideas, which is why I play them over again.I just have to get myself in the right frame of mind to enjoy something like a sax. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Williamsfan301 11 Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 Wait, so now he is correct because you agree with him? I do not understand, not after this huge "objectivity versus subjectivity" debate.No, not at all. You completely missed the mark on that one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Penna 3,696 Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 No, I don't understand either, but then I didn't enjoy the 'logic' class back at uni... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Parker 3,040 Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 Would you mind telling me what you meant by that post, then? I am confused.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koray Savas 2,251 Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 It's all personal opinion. Your theory contradicts itself. "If a melody is good, it will be liked." Therefore if it is liked, it has to be good.No, it's not a contradiction at all. The condition of the melody being good will cause it to be liked. Read what you wrote, Koray. In your reversal of my statement, the predetermined condition of the melody never changes. What I'm injecting into this discussion is that something is not good just BECAUSE it is liked.Whatever you're trying to say it doesn't matter. There is no hard fact that can prove if any piece of music is either good or bad. "Liking" something is just an expression of personal taste. Nothing else factors into it, each person has their likes and dislikes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indy4 155 Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 I gotta side with Koray on this one. Though I don't quite see how Williamsfan's theory contradicted itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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