Henry B 50 Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 Don't bother. You won't get through to him. Some people can't conceive that what they see is not necessarily what they get. He hears a melody, likes it, and decides that it is good. He alone knows this. The rest either recognize its goodness or disagree because they are immature, or ignorant, or depressed, or mentally insane, or suffering from some other ailment. The power resides within everybody to realize that the opinion of Williamsfan301 is the truth. They simply need to awaken this power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Penna 3,774 Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 I like Jade's theme from The Rock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koray Savas 2,251 Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Williamsfan301 11 Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 It's all personal opinion. Your theory contradicts itself. "If a melody is good, it will be liked." Therefore if it is liked, it has to be good.No, it's not a contradiction at all. The condition of the melody being good will cause it to be liked. Read what you wrote, Koray. In your reversal of my statement, the predetermined condition of the melody never changes. What I'm injecting into this discussion is that something is not good just BECAUSE it is liked.Whatever you're trying to say it doesn't matter. There is no hard fact that can prove if any piece of music is either good or bad. "Liking" something is just an expression of personal taste. Nothing else factors into it, each person has their likes and dislikes.Actually, it can be mathematically proven that any piece of music is either good or bad. And you're right, liking is an expression of personal taste. People like bad things - we all know that. People dislike good things - we know that too.So, really, we actually agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Parker 3,040 Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 Mathematics determine whether music is good or bad? Did I miss an earlier post of yours that explained this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ollie 1,069 Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 Twirl, Stacy, twirl! For the love of all that is holy, twirl!Indeed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henry B 50 Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 Actually, it can be mathematically proven that any piece of music is either good or bad. And you're right, liking is an expression of personal taste. People like bad things - we all know that. People dislike good things - we know that too.Really? That's fascinating. Could you please explain the mathematical formula for evaluating a melody? Or, if you don't know it, could you direct me to somebody who does? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Datameister 2,096 Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 Actually, it can be mathematically proven that any piece of music is either good or bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ollie 1,069 Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 I was never very good at math. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Parker 3,040 Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 (Awesome)(Originality) = Good Melody(Number of Notes)(Duration of Notes)Solve for x? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indy4 155 Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 That would make sense...assuming you could define "awesomeness." And now we're back to square one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Parker 3,040 Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 Oh, wow, you actually thought that "formula" made sense? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indy4 155 Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 Well yeah. I mean, a melody itself is just a melody, and it doesn't account for complex orchestration or anything, so that isn't part of the equation (pun intended). The denominator makes sense, to ensure that a melody is good throughout, not just in a single portion. And originality is always a plus. Its only problem is that awesomeness, the most important factor of a good melody, is indefinable (sorry, Williamsfan). And since we aren't talking necessarily about film scores here, how it works in relation to a film doesn't matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Parker 3,040 Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 Hm, maybe I should submit my formula to some math board."Today, class, we will learn about the Parkerian Theorem. Please open your textbooks to Page 72..."I like this idea.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red 75 Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 I'm thinking Williamsfan is havin' a laugh with this whole thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quintus 5,399 Posted January 25, 2009 Author Share Posted January 25, 2009 Not to get involved in the tit-for-tat, but I just lolled at this comment:The power resides within everybody to realize that the opinion of Williamsfan301 is the truth. They simply need to awaken this power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Williamsfan301 11 Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 I'm not laughing at all. In fact, this is probably the best time I've had on this board debating this idea with all of you. I'm trying to find the study that showed this, but, it ultimately all goes back to symmetry. All creatures, no matter how intelligent, find beauty in symmetry. Now, since for this discussion I think we can all agree that "good", "pretty", "beauty" are pretty much interchangable, a good melody, then, would be one that is symmetrical. Now, go back and listen to all the melodies that you like or consider "good". I will lay you odds that they are symmetrical - in some way shape or form, they are symmetrical. The study of music theory really is the study of harmonic symmetry. Pathagerous actually figured out what the mathematical ratios were between intervals. If you don't believe me, then think about this. If symmetry does not equal "good" or "beauty" in music, then why was tonal music not completely wiped out when dodecaphonic music came into exsistence in the early 20th Century?Now, I never said you had to like Hans Zimmer's melodies because they're good. What I've said is good is a predetermined state. Good melodies will be liked. BUT, just because they're liked, doesn't make them good. It's cause and effect: Because it's good, the effect is, it will be liked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henry B 50 Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 If you don't believe me, then think about this. If symmetry does not equal "good" or "beauty" in music, then why was tonal music not completely wiped out when dodecaphonic music came into exsistence in the early 20th Century?Oh my jesus christ because a lot of people like tonal music. And hey, just because a lot of people like it doesn't mean it's good, right? I just don't get this. How can somebody's visceral reaction to music embody a universal, indisputable truth? What happens when you change your mind or develop a new perspective? There are melodies I used to like that I now do not like. And what would you say to somebody John Cage? He never understood the appeal of tonal music. Why was his perception of music wrong while ours is right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Datameister 2,096 Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 I think we can all agree that "good", "pretty", "beauty" are pretty much interchangable...Count me as the first to disagree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ollie 1,069 Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 I think I'll just go find a good melody to listen to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quintus 5,399 Posted January 25, 2009 Author Share Posted January 25, 2009 Good melodies will be liked. BUT, just because they're liked, doesn't make them good.Me Tarzan. You Jane.Unga bunga! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxxie 1 Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 I think I'll just go find a good melody to listen to.Pirates of the Caribbean should do it....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Penna 3,774 Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 Well the main theme is pretty symmetrical! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ollie 1,069 Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 I can tell you now, if I'm looking for a good melody, the name Zimmer will be nowhere near it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxxie 1 Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 Well the main theme is pretty symmetrical!And 'good' in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Penna 3,774 Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 Indeed.And my response to Mark: Meh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Parker 3,040 Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 I think we can all agree that "good", "pretty", "beauty" are pretty much interchangable...Count me as the first to disagree.I shall be second. I highly doubt "Imperial March" is considered "pretty", or "beautiful" by many, yet I think we can all agree that "Imperial March" and "good" are pretty much interchangeable. However, Williamsfan301, there is at least a seed of truth in that paragraph of yours. Love for symmetry has dated back to Pericles and Athens (perhaps even further?), and as such influenced much art from the period, which would later influence the Romans, and since it could be argued that we live in a Greco-Roman world, I suppose that argument you made is somewhat justified. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Williamsfan301 11 Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 If you don't believe me, then think about this. If symmetry does not equal "good" or "beauty" in music, then why was tonal music not completely wiped out when dodecaphonic music came into exsistence in the early 20th Century?Oh my jesus christ because a lot of people like tonal music. And hey, just because a lot of people like it doesn't mean it's good, right? I just don't get this. How can somebody's visceral reaction to music embody a universal, indisputable truth? What happens when you change your mind or develop a new perspective? There are melodies I used to like that I now do not like. And what would you say to somebody John Cage? He never understood the appeal of tonal music. Why was his perception of music wrong while ours is right?Just because you stopped liking them doesn't mean their status as a good melody has changed.I think we can all agree that "good", "pretty", "beauty" are pretty much interchangable...Count me as the first to disagree.I shall be second. I highly doubt "Imperial March" is considered "pretty", or "beautiful" by many, yet I think we can all agree that "Imperial March" and "good" are pretty much interchangeable. However, Williamsfan301, there is at least a seed of truth in that paragraph of yours. Love for symmetry has dated back to Pericles and Athens (perhaps even further?), and as such influenced much art from the period, which would later influence the Romans, and since it could be argued that we live in a Greco-Roman world, I suppose that argument you made is somewhat justified.There's no seed - it's big freakin tree. And are you therefore saying the Imperial March is ugly? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Parker 3,040 Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 Can you honestly say that "good", "beauty", and "pretty" are interchangable? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Williamsfan301 11 Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 Can you honestly say that "good", "beauty", and "pretty" are interchangable?You didn't answer my question, Nick. Are you saying the Imperial March is ugly? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Parker 3,040 Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 Probably, yes. I do not think it is "pretty", nor "beautiful". I think "dirty" would perhaps be more apt of a term to use, if one can get my meaning. "Cruasde of the Slave Children" would be a good example to support my poorly-worded reasoning, I think. And my question still stands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koray Savas 2,251 Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 Good melodies will be liked. BUT, just because they're liked, doesn't make them good.Me Tarzan. You Jane.Unga bunga! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ollie 1,069 Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 And my response to Mark: Meh.Eh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Penna 3,774 Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 I can't be bothered any more to respond to senseless Zimmer putdowns, so meh it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Datameister 2,096 Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 I'll third the meh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quintus 5,399 Posted January 25, 2009 Author Share Posted January 25, 2009 I can tell you now, if I'm looking for a good melody, the name Zimmer will be nowhere near it. Yeah. You already said that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ollie 1,069 Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 Yes, but I was responding to Maxxie.I can't be bothered any more to respond to senseless Zimmer putdowns, so meh it is.No more senseless than those who try and convince us that he does compose good music. But then I can't be bothered to give a damn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koray Savas 2,251 Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ollie 1,069 Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 What, are you Trent now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koray Savas 2,251 Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 Mark, there is not one Zimmer melody that you could bring yourself to call "good"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ollie 1,069 Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 Well if he had any hand helping Patrick Cassidy with "Vide Cor Meum", perhaps.There was also a 5 minute stretch in POTC:AWE were I thought maybe, just maybe he got it, but after repeated listens it just didn't hold up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bondo 33 Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 You don't think "Leave No Man Behind" from Black Hawk Down is a good melody, or "Show Me Your Firetruck" from Backdraft? Being in the US Military, the former really strikes a chord with me (no pun intended). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Williamsfan301 11 Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 Probably, yes. I do not think it is "pretty", nor "beautiful". I think "dirty" would perhaps be more apt of a term to use, if one can get my meaning. "Cruasde of the Slave Children" would be a good example to support my poorly-worded reasoning, I think. And my question still stands.Dirty?!!!!! You want to talk about dirty!!? Dirty!!?Try beautifully bombastic, or pretty militaristic. And, yes, for the sake of this debate, good, pretty, beautiful are all interchangeable. A good melody, a beautiful melody, pretty melody - all of that fits the same context.And I find it ironic that it's the Zimmer fans here that are arguing with me when I'm the guy trying to defend the poor slob and I'm not a Zimmer fan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Parker 3,040 Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 Pretty militaristic.Ooh, there we go. That is way more apt than what I tried to say. Still, just using "pretty" in the phrase does not prove your point, I do not think.You understand what I am trying to say, yes? Do you consider "Imperial March" to be "pretty"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Penna 3,774 Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 Mark, there is not one Zimmer melody that you could bring yourself to call "good"?I actually think he secretly listens to Gladiator when we're all out of earshot and looveess it All this is just a charade to provide a good argument every day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ollie 1,069 Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 What, you missed my post last April 1st where I came out of the RC closet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indy4 155 Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 There was also a 5 minute stretch in POTC:AWE were I thought maybe, just maybe he got it, but after repeated listens it just didn't hold up.What part was that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ollie 1,069 Posted January 26, 2009 Share Posted January 26, 2009 Somewhere in "I Don't Think Now Is The Best Time". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indy4 155 Posted January 26, 2009 Share Posted January 26, 2009 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koray Savas 2,251 Posted January 26, 2009 Share Posted January 26, 2009 I'm actually watching At World's End right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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