Are all JW fans in agreement that Hans Zimmer DOES write a good melody?

[indy4 155]

how can anyone who knows the melody of Davy Jones or Up is Down deny that Zimmer can write good melodies?

Not only good but great!

Davy Jones was taken from Silvestri's The Polar Express. But Up is Down I agree with. And many others, as I previously listed.

[Datameister 2,044]

how can anyone who knows the melody of Davy Jones or Up is Down deny that Zimmer can write good melodies? Not only good but great!

I would assert that those are far from his best work, personally.

[Charlie Brigden 7]

I prefer the melody of Peter Tork.

[crocodile 8,020]

Some of his melodies are nice. Not spectacular, but good enough. Main theme from Pirates 3, Sophie theme from Da Vinci Code, some The Lion King material. I also liked Russian march from The Peacemaker. His best melodical stuff, however, has most of the time little in common with his "power anthem" scores.

Karol

[Datameister 2,044]

Main theme from Pirates 3

The film doesn't have a main theme any more than the first or second films do. Are you referring to the new love theme? (Which, I daresay, is extremely superfluous, often annoying, and features stereotypical Zimmer chord progressions in the worst way, IMO.)

[Maxxie 1]

Main theme from Pirates 3

The film doesn't have a main theme any more than the first or second films do. Are you referring to the new love theme? (Which, I daresay, is extremely superfluous, often annoying, and features stereotypical Zimmer chord progressions in the worst way, IMO.)

Could also be the "Hoist The Colours" theme?

[Red 75]

I kind of consider "Up is Down" to be the principal theme of At World's End.

[Maxxie 1]

The film doesn't have a main theme any more than the first or second films do.

I kind of disagree there.

The first film has the "He's A Pirate" motif, heard one way or another in many tracks, including the End Credits.

The second film has the "Jack Sparrow" comic theme/s (more so than the first movie), plus the "Wheel Of Fortune" theme that's heard four times (I think), inlcluding a portion of the End Credits.

The third film notably has about three new themes. The "Love Theme", the "Hoist The Colours" theme and the "Lord Cutler Beckett" theme (although this one isn't heard quite so much.)

And of course, there are many other themes than run through at least two of the movies in some kind of incarnation, such as "Davy Jones", "Fight For The Key", "The Black Pearl", "A Cursed Crew" etc.

[indy4 155]

I kind of consider "Up is Down" to be the principal theme of At World's End.

It's the best, but I'd say that Hoist the Colors is the main theme. Or possibly the love theme, which is intertwined with Up is Down throughout the majority of the cue.

[Ray Barnsbury 8]

What's the one that appears at 2:18 in "Drink Up Me Hearties"? I like that one.

[Wojo 2,453]

Even a group of monkeys sitting down at a kid's piano can hammer together a good tune or two.

I know you're being facetious, but that is, of course, entirely false. Probabilistically speaking, it would happen, yes, after many thousands of years, assuming that their motions were truly random. (Which they wouldn't be.) Practically speaking, one needs at least a little skill to be able to repeatedly write effective melodies. I'm only hammering this point because some members here seem to be under the impression that Zimmer and his cronies lack any skill whatsoever, which is patently false, regardless of their shortcomings.

Thousands of years? I think not. This mere child accomplished such a feat today. He's definitely cuter than a monkey. I don't think it's fair to compare cognitive function.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NW8tUvPKQ1I

Hans Zimmer could take that kid's melody, add some synthesizers, and hammer out a Michael Bay love theme in minutes flat.

[indy4 155]

What's the one that appears at 2:18 in "Drink Up Me Hearties"? I like that one.

That's the Love Theme.

The Up is Down Theme can be heard at 0:18 of "Up is Down."

[Henry B 50]

Ehh, I heard some of his melodies played by live orchestra and it doesn't really improve them. They're too simple for my tastes.

I don't see it as an issue of complexity (although there's no denying that is something missing in Zimmer's music). Sometimes the simplest motives are the best. For example, I really like the motives woven into Mark Griskey's Knights of the Old Republic II, and they're only three to five notes long. The issue is not complexity but tone. Does the melody say something meaningful? Does it accurately reflect upon the film?

[Nick Parker 3,040]

Even a group of monkeys sitting down at a kid's piano can hammer together a good tune or two.

I know you're being facetious, but that is, of course, entirely false. Probabilistically speaking, it would happen, yes, after many thousands of years, assuming that their motions were truly random. (Which they wouldn't be.) Practically speaking, one needs at least a little skill to be able to repeatedly write effective melodies. I'm only hammering this point because some members here seem to be under the impression that Zimmer and his cronies lack any skill whatsoever, which is patently false, regardless of their shortcomings.

Thousands of years? I think not. This mere child accomplished such a feat today. He's definitely cuter than a monkey. I don't think it's fair to compare cognitive function.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NW8tUvPKQ1I

Hans Zimmer could take that kid's melody, add some synthesizers, and hammer out a Michael Bay love theme in minutes flat.

And there, sir, is where you are wrong.

He would hire 10 other people who sound just like him to do the things you mentioned, and then toy around with their work, resulting in the final product.

On a (more) serious note (pun not intended but ultimately realized), I think Hans Zimmer can write good melodies from time to time.

[Wojo 2,453]

As do I. I actually enjoy listening to the POTC, Lion King, and even Gladiator scores from time to time.

And there, sir, is where you are wrong.

Thank you for being so proper when you correct me, kid.

[Ollie 1,059]

Ehh, I heard some of his melodies played by live orchestra and it doesn't really improve them. They're too simple for my tastes.

I don't see it as an issue of complexity (although there's no denying that is something missing in Zimmer's music). Sometimes the simplest motives are the best. For example, I really like the motives woven into Mark Griskey's Knights of the Old Republic II, and they're only three to five notes long. The issue is not complexity but tone. Does the melody say something meaningful? Does it accurately reflect upon the film?

I'll be honest and say at this point in my collecting that I'm not interested in how the music works in the films when I listen to it.

There are composers who can write simple tunes and make them interesting, Zimmer doesn't as far as I'm concerned.

[Wojo 2,453]

I have the five Zimmer scores I mentioned because I liked how the music worked onscreen and on album enough to want to listen to it over and again. I have no interest in buying or researching other Zimmer scores, simply because there is enough other good music to listen to, whether I've seen the movies or not. That includes the new Batmans.

[Datameister 2,044]

The first film has the "He's A Pirate" motif, heard one way or another in many tracks, including the End Credits.

"He's a Pirate" contains at least three distinct themes, all of which are used very frequently throughout the film. The first one doubles as a love theme for Will and Elizabeth and a more generic action theme, particularly when Will is involved. After stating two comparatively unimportant motifs, the cue then moves on to the theme that represents Jack in that film (i.e. "The Medallion Calls). Last is another generic action theme.

The second film has the "Jack Sparrow" comic theme/s (more so than the first movie),

Right, but that doesn't make it the theme of the film.

plus the "Wheel Of Fortune" theme that's heard four times (I think), inlcluding a portion of the End Credits.

That's not the main theme of the movie, either. Sure, it's used in a few spots. But for something to be the main theme of a film, it pretty much needs to be used to an overwhelming degree in the opening or end titles, and/or be referred to as the main theme by the composer, and/or be used in many, many different contexts in the entire score, much more than any other theme.

The third film notably has about three new themes. The "Love Theme", the "Hoist The Colours" theme and the "Lord Cutler Beckett" theme (although this one isn't heard quite so much.)

Beckett's theme was written for the second film, if you're talking about the same one I am. And the (superfluous and annoying) love theme is just that - a love theme. "Hoist the Colors" is the closest thing to a main theme any of the films have had, but it's not used all THAT much in the score, so I would still tend to classify it as a song within the universe of the film that happens to be used in the score a few times as well.

And of course, there are many other themes than run through at least two of the movies in some kind of incarnation, such as "Davy Jones", "Fight For The Key", "The Black Pearl", "A Cursed Crew" etc.

Naturally. I'm not at all trying to suggest the Pirates franchise lacks thematic material - there are probably a lot more themes in it than most non-fans realize. My point was simply that there isn't any single musical idea that can be called a "main theme" with 100% confidence.

[Henry B 50]

Ehh, I heard some of his melodies played by live orchestra and it doesn't really improve them. They're too simple for my tastes.

I don't see it as an issue of complexity (although there's no denying that is something missing in Zimmer's music). Sometimes the simplest motives are the best. For example, I really like the motives woven into Mark Griskey's Knights of the Old Republic II, and they're only three to five notes long. The issue is not complexity but tone. Does the melody say something meaningful? Does it accurately reflect upon the film?

I'll be honest and say at this point in my collecting that I'm not interested in how the music works in the films when I listen to it.

There are composers who can write simple tunes and make them interesting, Zimmer doesn't as far as I'm concerned.

Sure, I hear you. There are a few scores I love that are totally mismatched to their films. Bernstein's The Journey of Natty Gann, for example. I've tried syncing the score to points in the film for fun, and it just doesn't set the right mood. Horner's score nailed it. Yet I find that there's nothing special about "it" - that is, the film - at all. Bernstein's score is the better one, and I wish there was a film that deserved it.

But I find that most scores that don't do films justice are just bad; if the composer doesn't understand the ethos of the film, he might not put much ethos into his music. Zimmer's scores are usually abject failures in this respect. He approaches every single film the same way: soaring masculinity and fate knocking at the door. That's what I always hear, even in scores that on the surface seem very different, like The Da Vinci Code or The Simpsons Movie. It just has this incredibly arrogant flair.

[Williamsfan301 11]

define a good melody?

[Nick Parker 3,040]

John Williams.

[Williamsfan301 11]

John Williams.

That's not an answer. The question is: define a good melody.

[Nick Parker 3,040]

Good Melody= John Williams

Seriously, simple arithmetic

[Red 75]

You could also go with Koji Kondo...

[indy4 155]

Ehh, I heard some of his melodies played by live orchestra and it doesn't really improve them. They're too simple for my tastes.

I don't see it as an issue of complexity (although there's no denying that is something missing in Zimmer's music). Sometimes the simplest motives are the best. For example, I really like the motives woven into Mark Griskey's Knights of the Old Republic II, and they're only three to five notes long. The issue is not complexity but tone. Does the melody say something meaningful? Does it accurately reflect upon the film?

I'll be honest and say at this point in my collecting that I'm not interested in how the music works in the films when I listen to it.

There are composers who can write simple tunes and make them interesting, Zimmer doesn't as far as I'm concerned.

Sure, I hear you. There are a few scores I love that are totally mismatched to their films. Bernstein's The Journey of Natty Gann, for example. I've tried syncing the score to points in the film for fun, and it just doesn't set the right mood. Horner's score nailed it. Yet I find that there's nothing special about "it" - that is, the film - at all. Bernstein's score is the better one, and I wish there was a film that deserved it.

But I find that most scores that don't do films justice are just bad; if the composer doesn't understand the ethos of the film, he might not put much ethos into his music. Zimmer's scores are usually abject failures in this respect. He approaches every single film the same way: soaring masculinity and fate knocking at the door. That's what I always hear, even in scores that on the surface seem very different, like The Da Vinci Code or The Simpsons Movie. It just has this incredibly arrogant flair.

There is a Zimmer sound, and he can definitely be cautious of moving away from it. But I find that he definitely has. The Holiday and The Simpsons Movie are perfect examples of this.

[Williamsfan301 11]

Good Melody= John Williams

Seriously, simple arithmetic

No no no...that's not an answer. Define a good melody.

[Nick Parker 3,040]

You could also go with Koji Kondo...

Actually, I thought of him when I posted that.

[Jacob 0]

Good Melody= John Williams

Seriously, simple arithmetic

No no no...that's not an answer. Define a good melody.

Must be that new math they're teaching the kids these days.

[Red 75]

You could also go with Koji Kondo...

Actually, I thought of him when I posted that.

IMO there are few working composers that are as good as he is in melodic writing.

[Williamsfan301 11]

Good Melody= John Williams

Seriously, simple arithmetic

No no no...that's not an answer. Define a good melody.

Must be that new math they're teaching the kids these days.

Oh, man...if you only knew.

[Nick Parker 3,040]

You could also go with Koji Kondo...

Actually, I thought of him when I posted that.

IMO there are few working composers that are as good as he is in melodic writing.

Indeed. What perhaps impresses me more than his ability to create wonderful melodies is how he uses them.

[Smeagol 0]

I quite enjoy "The Holiday" but I have no idea who wrote what on that one, so I guess you can say I'm not very well informed. Besides that I've only listened to the pirates scores and those have catchy tunes.

Does catchy equals good?

[Datameister 2,044]

Does catchy equals good?

Depends on the listener. No piece of music is inherently good or bad. It takes a listener to either enjoy it or not enjoy it, and when all's said and done, that's really the only bit of factual information that matters. I personally find some of Zimmer's work extremely "catchy", as you put it, and I often enjoy it when it is, but I also like stuff that has a little more complexity and originality to it, and I have a much easier time respecting a composer who demonstrates a clear and consistent ability to write that sort of material.

To be honest, I think Zimmer is probably capable of writing stuff that's a bit more sophisticated than what he usually does. But casual listeners eat it up, and he knows it, and he himself likes the sound he produces, so he sees little reason to change substantially. At least that's how I see it.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Davy Jones was taken from Silvestri's The Polar Express. But Up is Down I agree with. And many others, as I previously listed.

"Davy Jones" is a Morricone homage, as is a good portion of the Pirates scores.

These kind of threads just bring me to say the same things over and over and I'm actually surprised that no one has changed in their generic low-blow attitudes towards his music.

[Charlie Brigden 7]

Davy Jones was taken from Silvestri's The Polar Express. But Up is Down I agree with. And many others, as I previously listed.

"Davy Jones" is a Morricone homage, as is a good portion of the Pirates scores.

These kind of threads just bring me to say the same things over and over and I'm actually surprised that no one has changed in their generic low-blow attitudes towards his music.

They're only generic because he's generic.

[TownerFan 4,984]

The problem lies with the legitimate suspect that maybe all the melodies that you all are listing aren't actually composed by Hans Zimmer at all.

Pirates of the Caribbean is a good example of this unashamed artistic ambiguity: the credits says "Music by Klaus Badelt", right? Ok, then there are actually 6 or 7 other additional composers, whom nobody knows which and how much music they actually wrote. The score bears the deliberately ambiguous credit "Score overproduced by Hans Zimmer". Then, when the second film comes around, Zimmer takes all the credit to himself, including the themes from the first movie. Also, he always surrounds himself with four or five so-called "additional composers".

Ok, good music doesn't need the Birth Certificate to be enjoyed, but you'll let me some kind of perplexed look at this attitude. You can say film music is a much more collaborative art than any other kind of music (and that is true), but here we're really crossing the line between artistic collaboration and absolute lack of artistic integrity.

Zimmer is a good, smart, clever music producer, not a composer.

[crumbs 14,319]

I'm no Zimmer supporter, but King Kong had 5 or 6 writers, too.

[Maxxie 1]

There isn't any single musical idea that can be called a "main theme" with 100% confidence.

Right, but I'm sure you'll agree that the most well known theme for Pirates of the Caribbean (even for people who don't really know film music very well) is the "He's A Pirate" theme used at the beginning of every End Credits piece?

[Hlao-roo 389]

Life is about ambiguity; reality is not always as sharply and brightly defined as we would like. Whence does an idea come? Can we ever really be sure? To identify with such unchecked certainty a single, distinct origin is folly. To erect artificial walls of individual attribution is to deny the way the world works. Zimmer and his colleagues are the ones who get it right. They know that art is inherently the product of a mysterious, not always conscious synergy among beings, and they celebrate it.

[Charlie Brigden 7]

I'm no Zimmer supporter, but King Kong had 5 or 6 writers, too.

Given the timeframe JNH had to produce that score, I can forgive that a lot more than Zimmer's minions.

[TownerFan 4,984]

I have absolutely no problem with a team approach to film music. Zimmer&Co. brought a rock band-like sensibility to Hollywood's film scoring. It's known that in rock/pop music, the authorship is always the result of a big collaborative effort between all the musicians involved.

However, it would be much more honest if Zimmer would really present himself as the band-leader/head producer, without all the fuss of being a composer.

We're making fan talks here, of course, and the question posed at the start of the thread is "Does Hans Zimmer write good melodies?". My answer is "I don't really know". Probably yes, he's able to write good melodies (I personally like very much the "Now We Are Free" theme, or whatever it's called, from Gladiator), but his approach to composition leaves a lot to the speculation and the doubts of the real authorship of the music.

[bondo 33]

The problem lies with the legitimate suspect that maybe all the melodies that you all are listing aren't actually composed by Hans Zimmer at all.

Pirates of the Caribbean is a good example of this unashamed artistic ambiguity: the credits says "Music by Klaus Badelt", right? Ok, then there are actually 6 or 7 other additional composers, whom nobody knows which and how much music they actually wrote. The score bears the deliberately ambiguous credit "Score overproduced by Hans Zimmer". Then, when the second film comes around, Zimmer takes all the credit to himself, including the themes from the first movie. Also, he always surrounds himself with four or five so-called "additional composers".

Ok, good music doesn't need the Birth Certificate to be enjoyed, but you'll let me some kind of perplexed look at this attitude. You can say film music is a much more collaborative art than any other kind of music (and that is true), but here we're really crossing the line between artistic collaboration and absolute lack of artistic integrity.

Zimmer is a good, smart, clever music producer, not a composer.

First of all, he's a good composer, and people start complaining when he produces.

Second, isn't the whole point of multiple composers to make the music sound like one, cohesive whole? When people say "I can't tell who wrote what," that's a compliment! That's the whole point. In the case of The Rock and Pirates of the Caribbean, Zimmer wrote a theme or two, and other composers fleshed it out. The comments you hear often about those scores are "The themes are good but the score sucks." The thematic praise is directed at Zimmer.

I don't think there's any argument whether or not he can bang out a good melody or not, because he's proven that fact time and time again. The power anthems of Crimson Tide, The Peacemaker, and The Rock are memorable and effective; "Now We Are Free" (Gladiator) and "Leave No Man Behind" (Black Hawk Down) are hauntingly beautiful and poignant in their respective films.

And do I even need to mention John Travolta's theme in Broken Arrow, played by Duane Eddie so well on the guitar? Only Zimmer would have scored that film as a "techno-western" (his words) and given it that unique sound.

[indy4 155]

Davy Jones was taken from Silvestri's The Polar Express. But Up is Down I agree with. And many others, as I previously listed.

"Davy Jones" is a Morricone homage, as is a good portion of the Pirates scores.

Perhaps, but it sounds just like "Seeing is Believing."

[Datameister 2,044]

Right, but I'm sure you'll agree that the most well known theme for Pirates of the Caribbean (even for people who don't really know film music very well) is the "He's A Pirate" theme used at the beginning of every End Credits piece?

Perhaps. I've found that the last theme of "He's a Pirate" is quite well-recognized, too. (And I do have a fair amount of experience in gauging people's reactions to the music - I often find myself playing bits of Pirates on piano in public places, along with other works by Williams, Zimmer, and other composers.)

[Maxxie 1]

I've found that the last theme of "He's a Pirate" is quite well-recognized, too.

One of my favourites.

dum, dum, dum dum dum dum-dum.

[Goldsmithfan 6]

He has written some good melodies for Pirates Of The Caribbean movies.

The similarities between Pirates of the Caribbean and Muppet Treasure Island crack me up. It's not note-for-note or anything but it definitely feels like he remembered the Muppets when scoring Mr. Sparrow.

[Williamsfan301 11]

But, there's still one slight detail. That is: Define a good melody?

[Ollie 1,059]

It depends. One could define a good melody as something simple and hummable or one could prefer something more complex.

I would think the general feeling is that a good melody is something recognizable, something that can be played to a wider audience and one that you can listen to over and over.

[Wojo 2,453]

It depends. One could define a good melody as something simple and hummable

The "He's a Pirate" theme is both simple and hummable. Or whistleable, or singable in a doot-doot-dah-dah-doot-doot kind of singing way.

or one could prefer something more complex.

Complexity does not always make something good.

I would think the general feeling is that a good melody is something recognizable

Pirates is.

something that can be played to a wider audience

Millions of people have bought Zimmer's albums, and I'm willing to bet more than 2/3 are not as well-versed or sophisticated of film score fans as the people you can find clustered around these composer-specific message boards. The casual fans certainly define a wide audience, especially when you hear music like from Pirates used during sporting events and other pop culture places.

and one that you can listen to over and over.

Therein lies the rub. The re-listen factor is not really there for back to back to back listens. But even any "good" music becomes torture when you listen to it over and over and over and over and over and over and over again.

[Quintus 5,399]

It's always nice to return from a night off the board to find one's thread still alive and kicking.