TNG vs TOS

[ChuckM 1]

Just curious.

[Datameister 2,043]

You just had to do it. Well, you know what my response is...

[Morlock 11]

Battlestar Galactica.

[Wojo 2,453]

My favorite cereal is Raisin Bran. John Crichton brought that up, maybe somebody wants to start a poll for that, too.

[Bryant Burnette 654]

Battlestar Galactica.

Indeed.

But as far as Trek goes, I vote for The Next Generation. It's got a lot going for it, including four of THE best characters on any of the shows (Picard, Riker, Data, and Worf), a large number of truly great episodes, and a fairly minimal number of poor episodes.

In second place, I'm torn between the original series and Deep Sace Nine. In some ways, I prefer DS9, because it has great characters, interesting philosophies, and a lot of ambition. But I feel like the series never quite managed to follow through on a lot of its promise.

On the other hand, the original series' historical importance to the genre really cannot be overstated, and that counts for a lot. There are a lot of great episodes, and Spock is possibly the single best character in all of sci-fi television. However, there are a lot of bad episodes, and let's face it: Shatner, though he has some really great moments, is frequently quite awful as Kirk.

I've only seen the first five seasons of Voyager, which I like, but slightly less than the others. As for Enterprise, I've seen only the first season, which I thought was decent but nothing special.

That leaves the animated series, which I actually like. The animation is kinda crappy, but I enjoy the fact that they use the medium to do some things Trek had not been able to do before: enormous space vessels, giant alien monsters, alien crewpeople that are more alien than having pointy ears, etc. It's an expansion of the idea of what Star Trek can be, and I won't be at all surprised if the new movie, what with its big budget and blockbuster ambitions, takes some cues from the animated series.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

There Is No Comparison!

[Wojo 2,453]

While I voted for TNG, I find it very difficult to grade an entire series over another, and it seems almost foolish to do so. Each series had its share of landmark episodes, and each had its share of true stinkers.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

DS9 had the least amount of stinkers at least.

[Wojo 2,453]

I'm not sure, though you're probably right. A lot of the Bajoran mumbo jumbo stuff in the early seasons I could have done without. I know it cemented the awe of the Emissary. Once they introduced the Jem'Hadar, the show really REALLY got good, and never really lost steam through the finale. Only a few of the holodeck nightclub or silly character portrait episodes later on during the war ever slowed down the momentum. Though the character development was certainly useful. I think DS9 was the most ambitious of the Trek shows since the original in the scope of what it added to the Trek pantheon.

[Charlie Brigden 7]

DS9, then TOS.

[Lurker 5]

Star Trek

Neil

[Williamsfan301 11]

No option for the movies? And at that TOS movies or TNG movies?

[Trent B 337]

I actually like them all but my favorite is Deep Space Nine.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

Star Trek, then Star Trek the Next Generation, then Star Trek Deep Space Nine, then Star Trek Voyager, The Star Trek the Animated Series, then Star Trek Enterprise.

[ChuckM 1]

No option for the movies? And at that TOS movies or TNG movies?

I'm including TOS movies as part of TOS, and TNG movies as part of TNG.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

None.

[John Crichton 4]

There Is No Comparison!

Amen, brother.

[Marian Schedenig 8,193]

There Is No Comparison!

[Bryant Burnette 654]

In my opinion, Deep Space Nine is a little overpraised by a lot of people. It was ambitious, in terms of its attempts at long-form storytelling, but both The X-Files and Babylon 5 started doing the same thing at about the same time, and arguably did it as well or better. Also, subsequent attempts at serialized television like Lost and Battlestar Galactica and the better seasons of 24 are so much better than DS9 than it plays now like a bit of a dinosaur, in some regards.

But it's still one of the better sci-fi shows ever made, and enduring proof of how flexible the Star Trek franchise can be.

[Trent B 337]

There Is No Comparison!

Amen, brother.

<Teal'c voice> Indeed.

Edit: I would say Deep Space Nine had the best character development for any Star Trek show, that even includes The Next Generation. Ya there are a few episodes here and there that as Wojo pointed out slowed things down a bit but I didn't mind them at least the pace was consistent for the most part. Over all Deep Space Nine was truly the best Trek TV series.

[John Crichton 4]

In my opinion, Deep Space Nine is a little overpraised by a lot of people. It was ambitious, in terms of its attempts at long-form storytelling, but both The X-Files and Babylon 5 started doing the same thing at about the same time, and arguably did it as well or better. Also, subsequent attempts at serialized television like Lost and Battlestar Galactica and the better seasons of 24 are so much better than DS9 than it plays now like a bit of a dinosaur, in some regards.

But DS9 did character based storytelling and long, involving plot arcs better than any other Star Trek show, by far. I won't argue that shows like Galactica, Buffy, and Farscape (my personal favorites) didn't do it better, they did, but DS9 is "best in class", so to speak.

John- who never got into Babylon 5 or The X-Files

[Wojo 2,453]

DS9's character and plot arcs were much tighter than TNG's, that's for certain, which made them grander. TNG did story arcs, there is no doubt, but there were stretched out so thin they were weakened. You'd have an episode here, then a bunch of filler, than another one, then some more filler, skip two seasons, and then finally you'd end the plotline. Take "Datalore," "Brothers," and both parts of "Descent" as example. Its long, sporadic story arc suggests the TNG writing team simply picked story lines for subsequent episode ideas out of a hat, with very little plot direction to the whole series as a storyline. So you get a random hodgepodge of episodes which really can be watched in a much more random order than other shows without damaging the experience. Not so much, though, as the completely random TOS, which show that TOS and TNG had no agenda other than to gallavant around the cosmos and find new lifeforms. DS9 was the first series to have a defined direction to its run -- defend the stationary station -- which was galvanized with the Dominion and the war it brought. Voyager returned to the gallavanting, just so long as at the end of each episode, they ended up a little closer to Earth. Enterprise had an uphill battle at creating an agenda that could fit within the rest of the pantheon and explain why we hadn't heard of this revisionist history before. Its fourth season was truly good Star Trek TV, but was too little, too late.

I see TAS as an extension of TOS. The writing team and voice talent (mostly) remained intact, so the storytelling quality remained on several good episodes. You still had junk storylines, though, but you'll have that. The animation was not much better than Scooby Doo or The Flintstones, as foreground action was often recycled over different background palettes, but that's forgivable as even Disney animation of the period had the same kind of graphic cost-cutting (read=laziness).

[John Crichton 4]

Enterprise tried the DS9 serialized approach its last couple of seasons with some decent results, certainly better than the first couple of years. But they didn't have the characters to sustain it. Outside of the top 3 (Archer, T'Pol, Trip) the rest of the main cast was just wallpaper, to say nothing of having no equal to DS9's seemingly endless supply of superb supporting characters.

[Wojo 2,453]

I agree with that statement. The Xindi conflict of the third season was quasi-interesting, but by that point, the whole show was already entwined with a "who the hell cares?" attitude. I say this because Enterprise had to start very deep in order to create its own history that could lead into Kirk's TOS era, rather than start too soon and find itself in Kirk's age before it knew it.

What we wanted were compelling characters, tie-ins to the marvelous intrigue of TOS, TNG, and DS9. We wanted the Romulan war. We got the Suliban and a Temporal Cold War, neither of which were compelling enough to be interesting. We wanted to see the disastrous "first contact" with the Klingons that Picard spoke of in that episode, but instead we got Earth trying to hand a bouquet of flowers to the Klingons by returning their fallen soldier from Iowa.

The show began with too much of the technology that we wanted to see get invented and troubleshooted during the show: transporters, warp drive, shuttlecraft, international translators, and the bane to the whole "Balance of Terror" setup, the viewscreen itself. Instead, we got Batman's grappling gun on the underside of the ship. No thank you.

The second season finale saw the show throw out all the stops and attack Earth directly. That was pretty awesome. But dragging out the whole third season to finally have Archer convince the head architect of the attack that it was wrong and he should turn on his own people was kind of lame. Another problem with the prequel series we knew we would be left wondering, "what happened to the Suliban and Xindi by the time Kirk comes around" so we weren't really interested in following them at this point.

And the Star Trek guest star actor of the week bit got old, too, whether it be unnamed Ferengi, Rene Odo, or whoever.

The series did have its share of gems. The Borg thawing out on Earth was a pretty cool trick, thinking that Starfleet had covered up its knowledge of the Borg centuries before "Q Who?" And the story arcs of the fourth season were great. The setup for a Romulan war began there, but the show had been teaching its viewers to hate and despise the Vulcans instead, which totally clashed with how cool we thought Spock was, and didn't make sense. I admit, though, I was a little lost on the episodes of Archer taking on the essence of Surak to instruct Vulcans to evolve into the mind melding Vulcans of later shows.

But like you said, the minor characters were dull as cardboard, and the show picked too deep a starting point to climb out of.

[John Crichton 4]

I liked Brent Spiner's eps. He's a good enough actor to make it rise above the "look, it's the guy that played Data" level.

The Temporal Cold War was a huge disappointment, mainly becuase it could have been really good if relevantly tied in to either Kirk's era or the 24th century. But I'd actually like to go back and watch those last couple of years of Enterprise again.

[Trent B 337]

If Enterprise had the whole attitude of the 4th season it would have done good as a whole for a Star Trek series. The Xindi arc wasn't too bad but the whole time travel crap got boring fast. The 4th season was definitely the best one but as stated it came a little too late.

[Wojo 2,453]

The addition of Manny Coto and others was only enough to make one season of knockout television, even though the fate had been sealed. It's curious to think back that this four-year series outlasted TOS, but will never have a fraction of the same emotional resonance with fans.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

the fact that the Capt. in Enterprise was a huge disappointment was never going to allow the show to succeed, and I was so eager when I heard he would be the captain, he lacked the nads that even Janeway had.

[Ollie 1,059]

TOS

[Trent B 337]

Another thing I hated about Enterprise was the series finale. That was a major yawn fest to have it tie into The Next Generation and essentially was a Next Generation episode. I was really bumbed on how that ended. I thought the episode before that should have been the series finale.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

1. Star Trek - awesome.

2. Star Trek: The Next Generation - excellent.

3. Star Trek: Voyager - Jeri Ryan.

4. Star Trek: Deep Space Nine -

5. Star Trek: Enterprise - never saw it.

[Trent B 337]

1. Star Trek - awesome.

2. Star Trek: The Next Generation - excellent.

3. Star Trek: Voyager - Jeri Ryan.

4. Star Trek: Deep Space Nine -

5. Star Trek: Enterprise - never saw it.

You must be joking about DS9....

[John Crichton 4]

Another thing I hated about Enterprise was the series finale. That was a major yawn fest to have it tie into The Next Generation and essentially was a Next Generation episode. I was really bumbed on how that ended. I thought the episode before that should have been the series finale.

Yes, it pretty much was a Next Generation episode. Rick Berman's present to himself, I guess.

[Wojo 2,453]

It was impossible to see Jonathan Archer as anyone other than Sam Beckett. The presence of Dean Stockwell in a few episodes was a gimmick that didn't help, and really didn't go anywhere as the TCW just fizzled out.

The show (Enterprise) had too much time travel, both from the extreme future (that Daniels guy) and the extreme past (Xindi in WW2 and the present day), which didn't make any sense.

Voyager was troubled, but I think three things helped it find its way:

-Seven of Nine (eye candy);

-The Borg (super-cool super-villain);

-Occasional contact with other contemporary Trek series, in the form of Barclay and Troi, to let the ship and us know that it was on the right path (and set the stage for Nemesis' wedding).

-Enterprise had its eye candy in T'Pol, especially when she donned the catsuit (how was that logical when all other Vulcans wore robes?).

-They featured the Borg in one episode only, and never really had their own dynamic super-villain until the Xindi came along. The problem was, the way the Xindi were written into the show sentenced them to either triumph over the Enterprise (not happening), be totally destroyed, or be defeated and put on a shelf to never be touched again. Their final fate was something of a mix of the last two if I remember correctly, which effectively ruined them as series villains.

-And the only meaningful contact we had with existing Star Trek plotlines was in the fourth season, when the end date had already been set.

That's not counting the finale. Showing Enterprise as a holographic history exercise for Riker and Troi all of a sudden crayoned the show as if Archer and friends had done years and years worth of special events worth remembering by the 24th century. And having Riker play the Chef was the punchline to a joke that wasn't really developed or funny to begin with. And killing the character that they did was about the most senselessly pointless death ever seen in Star Trek, as if to say "you want a sequel or a movie to this stuff? How about now? Hahaha."

[John Crichton 4]

Enterprise had its eye candy in T'Pol, especially when she donned the catsuit (how was that logical when all other Vulcans wore robes?).

Hoshi was hotter.

[Trent B 337]

Agreed about Hoshi being hotter. Also Wojo I agree about the whole death of Trip thing. That was definitely senseless and shouldn't have happened. I was like "what a crappy way to die" when I saw the episode.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

1. Star Trek - awesome.

2. Star Trek: The Next Generation - excellent.

3. Star Trek: Voyager - Jeri Ryan.

4. Star Trek: Deep Space Nine -

5. Star Trek: Enterprise - never saw it.

You must be joking about DS9....

A joke is a story with a humorous climax.

[ChuckM 1]

I've always thought that DS9 was pretty boring as well.

Then again, before this thread, I never realized that it was serialized, so maybe if I started at the beginning and went straight through it would be a little more interesting.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

no it was boring for the first 3 seaons, once Worf arrived, and Sisko went bald the show gained a new perspective.

It still features the greatest space battles ever seen by humans.

[Wojo 2,453]

I used to think DS9 was boring, too, but that was also before the third season, the addition of Worf, and the Dominion/Jem'Hadar story line. After that, I loved it.

[John Crichton 4]

The first three seasons are good too. Seasons one and two are a bit shaky as they get their footing, then in three and four it gets better. But from season five on is masterful.

[Ollie 1,059]

It was ok.

TNG is my favorite after TOS.

[Marian Schedenig 8,193]

The first three seasons are good too. Seasons one and two are a bit shaky as they get their footing, then in three and four it gets better. But from season five on is masterful.

Agreed. And don't forget the first two seasons of TNG weren't exactly great either. Encounter at Farpoint is downright ridiculous and the rest of S1 is hardly any better - when I bought the DVDs, I already started wondering if I'd done the right thing. S2 as far as I remember was more of the same, with less embarrassing episodes and a few better highlights (probably about the level of DS9's first season). I think the first (or at least one of the very first) genuinely good TNG ep was Yesterday's Enterprise (in fact, it's one of the best, with one of the best Trek series scores, too).

Overall, while TNG's very best episodes may compare to DS9's best, DS9 managed to produce consecutive first rate episodes for nearly entire seasons. With TNG, you always get a (relative) stinker every few eps even in its best years.

I still love TNG though. (the good parts)

[JoeinAR 1,949]

The first three seasons are good too. Seasons one and two are a bit shaky as they get their footing, then in three and four it gets better. But from season five on is masterful.

Agreed. And don't forget the first two seasons of TNG weren't exactly great either. Encounter at Farpoint is downright ridiculous and the rest of S1 is hardly any better - when I bought the DVDs, I already started wondering if I'd done the right thing. S2 as far as I remember was more of the same, with less embarrassing episodes and a few better highlights (probably about the level of DS9's first season). I think the first (or at least one of the very first) genuinely good TNG ep was Yesterday's Enterprise (in fact, it's one of the best, with one of the best Trek series scores, too).

Overall, while TNG's very best episodes may compare to DS9's best, DS9 managed to produce consecutive first rate episodes for nearly entire seasons. With TNG, you always get a (relative) stinker every few eps even in its best years.

I still love TNG though. (the good parts)

The best of TNG is untouched by the best of DS9. Nothing DS9 can touch Yesterday's Enterprise, The Best of Both Worlds, Inner Light, All Good Things, and several others. And thats not saying that I don't hold DS9 with high regard, its often brilliant. But its central cast was not as strong as TNG's.

Measure of a Man came before Yesterdays Enterprise and it is top notch on all fronts.

[Charlie Brigden 7]

DS9 has a huge quota of great episodes. I like TNG ok, but there are few episodes that I look back on fondly (All Good Things, Descent, Inner Light, The Best of Both Worlds, Unification). DS9 was consistently great for like five years. I'll certainly hold up Homefront/Paradise, A Call To Arms and Far Beyond The Stars against anything from any other series period.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

it certainly wasn't great for 5 season, not in any shape or form, and there were many average shows in the later years, some annoyingly so. I will say most of the Garek centered shows were fantabulous

[Marian Schedenig 8,193]

DS9 also gets credit for having relatively unannoying kids. Even the first-season stuff centering on Jake and Nog is more enjoyable (and certainly more "believable") than most of Wesley's stuff.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

I disagree, Jake was just as awful if not moreso than Wesley, and not nearly as interesting. Nog turned out to be quite a character however, suprassing Jakes value to the show in many ways.

I wish DS9 could have one more 2 hours episode.

[John Crichton 4]

I will say most of the Garek centered shows were fantabulous

And you'd be right.

[Wojo 2,453]

I will say most of the Garek centered shows were fantabulous

And you'd be right.

But...I'm agreeing with Joey, too? I don't feel so good...