Similarities between Howard Shore's LOTR scores and John Williams' scores

[indy4 155]

A good operatic score (like LotR) usually varies/develops the variations of the themes. Through that development much of the narrative is told. IMO the story a score tells can often be different than the one the film tells if you approach it as pure music, but that's the fun of it! I'm not interested in reliving a film by listening to the score--if I want to relive the film I'll watch the film!

[KK 3,307]

Hate it or love it, the storytelling aspect of LotR is the greatest strength of Shore's scores. Shore uses two components to cover this concept; musical colours and thematic ideas (leitmotifs, etc). Each race/character/places etc. is assigned a theme or a leitmotif. But it's not just that when the hobbits show up on screen, Shore starts tapping away on the bodhran drum and gets a nice celtic dance going. No, to convey the evolution of these characters/races/places, Shore uses various musical colours and textures. Take the Shire material for instance. When you hear its light Celtic renditions in the opening cues, you know you're safe in the homely Shire country. When you hear it nobly pronounced over tense strings at 0:49 in "The Ring Goes South", you know the hobbits are ready for their adventure. And then when you hear its solemn, melancholic statements (at times gorgeously expressed) like in the "The Breaking of the Fellowship", you know the hobbits are at a loss. And then to hear the theme brutally treated as their journey darkens throughout the remaining films, you clearly know where the hobbits are going. Shore is able to communicate the evolution of these characters by manipulating thematic identities through the use of varyin musical textures.

And for a universe as culturally diverse as Middle-Earth, it's amazing just how many distinct identities Shore gave for all these worlds. The gorgeous ethereal choirs for The Last Homely Home of Imladris, the ominous eastern-like melody for the mysterious woods of Lothlorien, the Nordic flavour of the Hardangar fiddle for Rohan, etc. It's been a long time since any score has been able to communicate the film's narrative journey as effectively as LotR did. I mean listening to the FotR CR is like going on a big musical adventure. In fact, it comes to the point where you can imagine the film in your head and be able to tell just about where you are in the story while listening to the score.

A lot of it has to do with how Shore approached the films like scoring an opera. That seriously worked towards the score's benefit.

Anyways, disliking LotR because it sounds too modern or too "boring" is fine as you have your own taste for music. But to hate on LotR because you believe its bad with the storytelling aspect of it is absurd imho.

[Faleel 5,359]

ESB is a concerto for Imperial March and orchestra.

Also, the CR's are the score as written for the Extended Edition, alot of cues on the OST or Rarities archive are for the Theatrical Cut, perhaps you prefer it in that format?

[crocodile 8,020]

My own opinion on LOTR scores (and to be quite frank on Howard Shore in general) is kind of scizophrenic. He does impress me with his dedication and intelligence. Film music is clearly more than just a job for him and it's always interesting to check out how he approaches his project.

But... I admit I don't get as much from him emotionally as I'd like. I appreciate his technical and cerebral approach to scoring, but not so much as something I'd really connect with (with some exceptions). Having said that, I will contradict myself slightly and say I buy most of his stuff anyway.

Karol

[Faleel 5,359]

"Khazad-dum" is the "Chasm Crossfire" of the 2000's.

[wanner251 17]

Perhaps it is possible that Howard Shore's true intent was to transport you to Middle Earth and its many landscapes and characters, rather than tell a definite story. He leaves that part to the film and gets out of the way, so that it can stand out more. I don't really know, but that is the feeling I get. For musical storytelling, it's a bit lacking, but for musically painting a picture of the world, it is wildly successful. Honestly, I don't find it to be operatic at all because in opera, the music pushes the story forward. LOTR strikes me as more impressionistic than anything else. Beautiful and subdued.

[Faleel 5,359]

I am sorry, none of William's music advances the plot (unless it is source music!) in the films he scored.

[Muad'Dib 1,802]

I am sorry, none of William's music advances the plot (unless it is source music!) in the films he scored.

Images.

[Faleel 5,359]

Just Curious, how so?

[wanner251 17]

I don't feel that I'm hating on Howard Shore or his score for LOTR. I really do enjoy it. I'm just trying to make sense of why I don't love it more. Like I said in my original post, I feel like I'm missing something because I don't love it the way all of you seem to. All I'm doing is offering possible reasons why it may not grab me. I'm trying to figure out what it is I'm missing.

[KK 3,307]

Perhaps it is possible that Howard Shore's true intent was to transport you to Middle Earth and its many landscapes and characters, rather than tell a definite story. He leaves that part to the film and gets out of the way, so that it can stand out more. I don't really know, but that is the feeling I get. For musical storytelling, it's a bit lacking

I just don't understand where you're getting this from. Clearly there's something that you don't like in the scores, and that's perfectly fine. But I have a hard time imagining that the storytelling component is it.

Even without all the ethnically diverse musical plaette, you still clearly hear an emotional story going on with the characters through their themes.

[Muad'Dib 1,802]

Just Curious, how so?

Johnny's music is quite well mixed with the sound design (specially with the wind chimes) and it represents quite well Yor's character schizophrenia, and even at times it seems like the characters are the ones playing the music.

And I'd dare to say that Close Encounters too, if not even more so. But it's not as evident as Shore's work, of course.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

Just Curious, how so?

Johnny's music is quite well mixed with the sound design (specially with the wind chimes) and it represents quite well Yor's character schizophrenia, and even at times it seems like the characters are the ones playing the music.

How does this advances the plot?

[Muad'Dib 1,802]

How does this advances the plot?

Well, maybe it doesn't precisely advance it, but it's not music relegated to the picture (like Jaws or Star Wars for example). It's a 50/50 situation in the case of Images.

[gkgyver 1,645]

It is in my top 5 tracks from ROTK. Awesome brass. Who is John Williams again?

You know, I like being provocative, don't take everything so serious.However, it is still in the Top 5.

[wanner251 17]

I just don't understand where you're getting this from. Clearly there's something that you don't like in the scores, and that's perfectly fine. But I have a hard time imagining that the storytelling component is it.

Seriously, K.K. I feel like I'm grabbing at straws. Just trying to understand what's not working for me. It may not be that specifically. Perhaps the reason is just too abstract to put into words...

[Incanus 5,716]

I just don't understand where you're getting this from. Clearly there's something that you don't like in the scores, and that's perfectly fine. But I have a hard time imagining that the storytelling component is it.

Seriously, K.K. I feel like I'm grabbing at straws. Just trying to understand what's not working for me. It may not be that specifically. Perhaps the reason is just too abstract to put into words...

I get the feeling that what you might be after is clear lined thematic development and very defined set pieces to carry a narrative rather than the Wagnerian operatic style of densely thematic writing, which envelopes the story. Usually film scores as I said before approach films like in the latter style. Neither approach is better than the other but we may certainly prefer one over the other. In LotR the music is so inherently thematic and they appear in such a constant flow, that it may make the music to some people (I have a friend who has said this) nervous or jumpy or it moves to their liking too fast from one section to the next, when they would have liked it to go on developing some phrase or the other.

In film music we have to get used to the fact that the film dictates, what the composer can say and how long he has to say it but the options how to do it are myriad in that space. Shore chose to illustrate the plot, indeed subtexts, the main plot, the poetry and Tolkien's themes, in a very specific way, which leads to the music answering the themes of the film very precisely. It does not leisurely develop the common tropes and staples of the genre or orchestral music like scherzos, adagios or fugues in the sense that it would take time to make these musical forms a centerpiece of the music even though Shore frequently uses them in the score. What I mean is that you do not have a set piece forms like a chase scherzo, a memory waltz, a preparation fugue or mourning string adagio that would be the dominant element but rather all forms serve the thematic whole. This might also turn some people off to this music as it does not fit the popular and general moulds established in countless scores.

This is not to say that Shore doesn't build set pieces in LotR scores as he develops many longer sequences on certain musical figures and forms but as said above the thematic development and use is the focus. It does not make the Moria chase sequence any less coherent or exciting, the Amon Hen battle any less visceral or heart wrenching or the Lighting of the Beacons or the Three Hunters section less driving or powerful even though he approaches all of them from the point of view of multiple thematic layers, having good and evil themes playing against each other, entwining, battling or parallelling.

Some here mentioned the certain intellectually centered cerebral way Shore's music is built and in the same breath say, how this deprives it of some of the emotional resonance. Shore's music in general, talking outside LotR, can be and often is to me rather emotionally detached, it does not go for the heart but for the brain or intellectual subtext. In LotR I was positively surprised how emotionally engaging, a very important part of music for me, these scores were and talked to me of general emotions but also mirrored the emotions I got from reading LotR, which is immensely meaningful book to me. The Shire music had certain pensive quality, the simple love of country and earth itself but also jocundity and pastoral warmth, the Mordor music was suitably threatening, black and twisted, ancient, cold and commanding, chilling in a visceral sense, capturing the sheer evil Sauron represents in many colours and ways. The Ring, a character in the book is brought to life as a multifaceted thing, embodying deep sadness, the danger and allure, while drawing connections to other facets of the story, Gollum, the evil of Mordor and Sauron himself. The Elven music although wrapped in glinting colours and splendour and wonder at first, hints at the deeply underlying sadness, the subdued colours, the slow melancholic decline and receding of their world, that to me captures Tolkien's words and ideas on the subject extremely well. The exotic sounds for Lothlorien were a curiosity at first but then I found the certain reflective and timeless, floating and hypnotic quality in the Eastern influences, the idea of past ages and of other worldly immortality and certain aliennes from the normal world these Elves live in all reflected in the music. How the solo horn sings the Gondor Theme in the Council of Elrond and I am transported to the faded grandeur of Minas Tirith or Pelargir, proud, ancient but in the twilight of its times. How Boromir's words of Minas Tirith turn into beautifully longing poetry when we hear the Silver Trumpets Theme evoking the near mythic sense of heroism and glorious past behind the words. These are just a few examples of things I found highly reflective of Tolkien's themes and ideas, the colours he evokes in his words, which I guess makes the music even more resonant to me.

And then there is the question of how people listen to film music, as pure music or as a musical depiction of a given story. I can listen to certain scores without any connection to the film they were composed for but I can't, as I have read and lived and breathed Tolkien for more than half of my life, think this music without context or without a certain narrative frame as it is also highly narrative in form, the themes themselves providing a lattice work that obviously has a story to tell. So as such I can't say, what this music sounds to a person, who has no connection to the story of LotR and how can he/she relate to the music as pure music. Is it driving enough, entertaining enough or captivating enough and does it provide another kind of canvas for the imagination even when riddled with such specific host of themes? I certainly do most of the time relive the story of LotR, not necessarily the films but rather the novel, when listening to these scores. For me this is not a bad thing, rather a wonderful way to re-experience the tale all over again emotionally and intellectually and even allow a bit of free association into the mix from time to time and dream of different adventures.

[Jay 37,373]

wanner I don't know why you're concerning yourself so much with this stuff. For every score ever written, there's a group of people who love it and a group of people who don't. You own the scores, put them on and enjoy them when you feel like it, and listen to other scores when you don't. Why does it have to be more complicated than that?

[Wojo 2,453]

That's like looking at an "ugly" married woman and asking yourself, "why is she married? why does she get it every night? why does she have kids?" when you can't rationalize yourself even giving her the time of day. Everyone has different tastes. Accept this and move on.

I'm going to hell for that one.

[wanner251 17]

The word of the lord... Amen. :-)

[KK 3,307]

I just don't understand where you're getting this from. Clearly there's something that you don't like in the scores, and that's perfectly fine. But I have a hard time imagining that the storytelling component is it.

Seriously, K.K. I feel like I'm grabbing at straws. Just trying to understand what's not working for me. It may not be that specifically. Perhaps the reason is just too abstract to put into words...

Like others have said, you just don't like these scores. You don't have to look for a specific reason to it. It's just not to your tastes. I was just pointing out that the story-telling part might not be what you're looking for.

In fact I think it might be (as Incanus stated above) the lack of more clearly defined set pieces and the subtlety of Shore's dense writing that ultimately takes away the appeal of the scores. Perfectly understandable.

I am sorry, none of William's music advances the plot (unless it is source music!) in the films he scored.

I don't understand the need to attack Williams when someone doesn't like something about LotR. Or vice versa for that matter.

[Faleel 5,359]

I am sorry, none of William's music advances the plot (unless it is source music!) in the films he scored.

I don't understand the need to attack Williams.

What the? I never attacked Williams......

I was only saying that HS isn't the only one who's music does not advance the plot...