Similarities between Howard Shore's LOTR scores and John Williams' scores

[Faleel 5,360]

This is not a poll I just wondered how many bits of HW's LOTR scores sound like Williams or similar:

ROTK The Grace of Undomiel (middle section) - AOTC Return to Tatooine.

FOTR At The Sign of the Prancing Pony (when the hobbits enter the Inn) - ROTJ Yoda's Death (Death Knell bit)

TTT Master Peregrin's Plan (Osigilliath Burns)/The Passage of the Marshes - TLW Heading North (0:59)

[Henry B 50]

The choral bit at the beginning of "Anakin's Dark Deeds" from Revenge of the Sith is pretty much right out of Lord of the Rings. It's one of the Ring themes, I think.

[Richard Penna 3,695]

Yep, and I think Shore's use of it is much better - it fits with the rest of his score, whereas Williams just brings it out of nowhere.

[Faleel 5,360]

The choral bit at the beginning of "Anakin's Dark Deeds" from Revenge of the Sith is pretty much right out of Lord of the Rings. It's one of the Ring themes, I think.

The Seduction of the Ring?

[Jay 37,374]

One of the Memoirs of a Geisha themes always reminds me of the Gondor Theme

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

One of the Memoirs of a Geisha themes always reminds me of the Gondor Theme

THIS!

I've been saying so for years!

[Datameister 2,044]

The choral bit at the beginning of "Anakin's Dark Deeds" from Revenge of the Sith is pretty much right out of Lord of the Rings. It's one of the Ring themes, I think.

Yeah, Williams did not stray far at all from the temp track there.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

By that time he had become so bored with the Prequels that he was just getting that score done with minimal effort.

[Joni Wiljami 1,206]

Didn't he score some other movies that year?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Only 3 others!

[Incanus 5,716]

The choral bit at the beginning of "Anakin's Dark Deeds" from Revenge of the Sith is pretty much right out of Lord of the Rings. It's one of the Ring themes, I think.

The Seduction of the Ring?

Well Williams as it has been said above, followed or was made to follow the temp track quite closely here. But to his credit he did not borrow the melody itself as the humming choir doesn't sing the Seduction of the Ring theme at all and the material is closer to his own lament themes for the ending half of the film. Sadly otherwise it is a case of a temp track bleed of the worse kind. But he also had 3 other films to score that year. I would not be amazed if RotS was somewhat heavily temp tracked with LotR music, the new standard for epic, which Lucas was so very much after in his film.

[KK 3,307]

One of the Memoirs of a Geisha themes always reminds me of the Gondor Theme

I can see how brief portions/phrases of the main theme might be reminiscent of the Gondor theme but they're nothing more than a coincidence.

[Quintus 5,399]

The Star Wars Main Titles are after all an inverted version of the History of the Ring melody, therefore it's safe to assume Williams was at the very least subconsciously mindful of Shore's score when he wrote Star Wars.

[MrJosh 892]

The choral bit at the beginning of "Anakin's Dark Deeds" from Revenge of the Sith is pretty much right out of Lord of the Rings. It's one of the Ring themes, I think.

The Seduction of the Ring?

Well Williams as it has been said above, followed or was made to follow the temp track quite closely here. But to his credit he did not borrow the melody itself as the humming choir doesn't sing the Seduction of the Ring theme at all and the material is closer to his own lament themes for the ending half of the film. Sadly otherwise it is a case of a temp track bleed of the worse kind. But he also had 3 other films to score that year. I would not be amazed if RotS was somewhat heavily temp tracked with LotR music, the new standard for epic, which Lucas was so very much after in his film.

It would be really cool to see lists of the various temp tracks for films to see how close composers come to the temp. I know some cues end up being obvious but I'm sure there are some that would be interesting and surprising.

[Faleel 5,360]

I almost wonder if HTTYD's flying scene was temped with any Williams music...

I believe the first malevolence episode of The Clone Wars was temped with the finale of ESB (Hyperspace)

[p0llux 400]

The Star Wars Main Titles are after all an inverted version of the History of the Ring melody, therefore it's safe to assume Williams was at the very least subconsciously mindful of Shore's score when he wrote Star Wars.

100% absolutely agree.

[Incanus 5,716]

The Star Wars Main Titles are after all an inverted version of the History of the Ring melody, therefore it's safe to assume Williams was at the very least subconsciously mindful of Shore's score when he wrote Star Wars.

Indeed. He is bit of a psychic, isn't he, divining all this from tea leaves in late 1976.

[Joni Wiljami 1,206]

This is a little of the topic but ROTS was mentioned here and three other scores that year Williams scored. Busy year.

Funny thing is that 3 of them, possible all of them are better than Shore's ROTK.

FOTR is another story though.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Joni Wiljami 1,206]

Imho

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Joni Wiljami 1,206]

humble

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Joni Wiljami 1,206]

No. Because I'm dead serious.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

So basically, Williams completely ripped off LOTR when composing the prequels.

[Richard Penna 3,695]

This is a little of the topic but ROTS was mentioned here and three other scores that year Williams scored. Busy year.

Funny thing is that 3 of them, possible all of them are better than Shore's ROTK.

FOTR is another story though.

[KK 3,307]

So basically, Williams completely ripped off LOTR when composing the prequels.

Williams ripped off Shore when he wrote Star Wars. It was a carbon copy right from the beginning I tell you!!!

[Joni Wiljami 1,206]

This is a little of the topic but ROTS was mentioned here and three other scores that year Williams scored. Busy year.

Funny thing is that 3 of them, possible all of them are better than Shore's ROTK.

FOTR is another story though.

Ok ok, also better than FOTR.

[Marcus 390]

From a musical perspective, Hornist has every right to be dead serious. I can't think of a single effort by Shore, nor of any other Hollywood composer in recent years, that has come close to "rivalling" the quality of Williams' mature writing. Ironically, given the premise of this board, this is precisely the kind of feedback likely to be dismissed as fanboy-ism...

Therefore:

Art is not particularly democratic, save for the one fact that hard work does pay off. And when tremendous talent, almost unfathomably vast experience and an incredible work ethic sustained over the last 65 years or more combine, what you get is something truly unique.

In historical terms, I would guess that the only model that comes close, is Haydn (who also happens to be one of Williams' household gods), who had the benefit of great gifts, great training, consistent access to bettering his craft by writing for the Esterhazy court, which also boasted some of the best musicians 18th century Europe had to offer, and on top of all this, health and longevity to keep improving and refining his art...

There is a certain amount of luck involved, of course, dealing superficially with external factors, opportunities, connections, providence, but the deeper luck is the combination of the above mentioned qualities (talent, training and tenacity), and the strength and energy to pursue the task of musical excellence for such an extensive amount of time.

The point I'm making, is this: Williams, through his unique experience, brings something entirely beyond the usual scope of film music (especially nowadays) to any project he scores. And that shines through even moments of temp-track derivation (if indeed that they be), simply because what he does in purely musical terms is at another level altogether.

[Joni Wiljami 1,206]

Indeed.

[gkgyver 1,645]

What a load of bollocks.

Williams did four scores that year, ROTS, Geisha, Munich and War of the Worlds. And none of them are unique (WotW even borrows from ROTS). They are if you compare them to each other.

There is more to film scoring than technical aspects.

And to insinuate that Howard Shore either didn't work hard on LOTR or that it didn't pay off is nothing less than insulting.

Romancing about classical history doesn't change that.

[Richard Penna 3,695]

From a musical perspective, Hornist has every right to be dead serious. I can't think of a single effort by Shore, nor of any other Hollywood composer in recent years, that has come close to "rivalling" the quality of Williams' mature writing.

I suggest you look harder then.

If I hear a score (film, or standalone) and I like it, I don't give a crap who wrote it, or their ability to orchestrate. If it's emotionally meaningful, then it's done its job.

And actually, that's a stupid argument anyway - how are you defining 'quality' exactly?

[Romão 2,274]

Actually, I find WOTW to be an extremely unique score.

And Marcus, please do post more often, it's always a pleasure to read your stuff

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

War of the Worlds is very good.

[Quintus 5,399]

What a load of bollocks.

Williams did four scores that year, ROTS, Geisha, Munich and War of the Worlds. And none of them are unique (WotW even borrows from ROTS). They are if you compare them to each other.

There is more to film scoring than technical aspects.

And to insinuate that Howard Shore either didn't work hard on LOTR or that it didn't pay off is nothing less than insulting.

Romancing about classical history doesn't change that.

Considerably harsher than I would have put it, but I have to agree.

All the time served experience, knowledge and craft in the world isn't worth either the paper it is sketched on or the instrument it is played upon if I, the listener, do not feel it.

Marcus seems to be confusing his cosy, limitless admiration for John Williams with a sort of educated truth as he sees it; completely overlooking the fact that nothing in his well bowed repertoire means a thing next to the simple yet pure sensations of goosebumps, laughter and tears.

Not for the first time, I stress, it appears another musician fails to perceive music beyond their savvy for its theory. Why is this seemingly always the case?

[Incanus 5,716]

I sometimes wonder the general attitude of the MB concerning Williams and other composers. There is almost never relevant discussion on them on a positive level that doesn't soon devolve into a contest of "Composer X is better than the Williams of last 10 years" or something equally silly. I know we all feel enormous need to justify our love for certain music and its creator but this is almost always done in mean spirited way by putting down the other composer, be it Williams or someone else.

On the whole there is very little of celebration of John Williams here as many think as their sacred duty to balance the scales by descending like ton of bricks on those who love his work and dare to express it and vice versa when someone might praise some other composer. I sometimes think that Williams is truly the victim of his own success and the expectations for his music have risen to astronomical levels, especially when he is expected to repeat himself both success and content wise to keep certain demographic happy. We far too often take his talent and gift for granted, when it is something that should be cherished, not put down at every turn when War of the Worlds or Munich might not make your socks spin on your feet with delightful melodic jig (and some others might truly appreciate them without being worse for it).

Some Williams fans (myself included) are a prickly bunch when their Maestro is under criticism or some other composer threatens his sovereignity in some thread. A classic defense mechanism of some fans is that they blindly start insulting and belittling the opposition when they feel the validity of their appreciation is under threat. This doesn't lead to anything very positive either.

In the case where you can't appreciate the scores in question on either side of the discussion I would suggest you turn your gaze to those scores you can and do like and love then and speak and write about them instead of pouring wrinkled brow negativity into discussions all the time. I personally try to keep an open mind about other composers and have a positive attitude about their work. You are not obliged to like everything every composer puts out or even every composer but I am sometimes amazed how condescending and mean we act toward each other (be this part in jest or not) just because we like different things.

The purpose of this thread was to examine the similarities between the two composers in relation to 3 scores done by the other one. A very small area against a live's work. This was not about a competition but comparison in style and ways of scoring a film. But it became to put it a bit comically Presumed Innocent VS LotR Trilogy musical quality competition, where people take their least favourite Williams and place it alongside Howard Shore's highest peak of achievement in film scoring. I personally think these two people have such different musical voices and aesthetics it becomes very difficult to find much common in their works, apart from the temp track cases and common film music and dramatic music tropes they utilize. But after that we plunge to the "my composer is better than your composer" rant where people bash each other with their opinions. Rabbit season! Duck season! Rabbit season! Duck season!... Very fruitful and constructive way of looking at things isn't it.

And when it comes to scientifically proving some piece of art better than another in absolute objective terms, I say good luck with that. Opinions, opinions, nothing more, large and small, canon or non-canon. And if someone comes up with such a fool proof list of criteria, please send it to me. I would love to have such a guide so I can rank my art.

Oh and for the record, I do love both John Williams' music and Howard Shore's LotR trilogy at the same time and do not feel diminshed by this at all.

[publicist 4,643]

And if someone comes up with such a fool proof list of criteria, please send it to me. I would love to have such a guide so I can rank my art.

I'll send it via PM!

Considering the enormous spell the LOTR trilogy still seems to cast i say let Williams rescore them for whatever bluray rivendell edition comes out next. We then will hear how much this earns beyond the usual scope of film music.

[Incanus 5,716]

Oh yes I remember that list you have promised before!

LotR scores are a red cloth on this MB. They inflame people in so many ways. If anything someone always feels obliged to swoop by to at least exclaim their distaste for them and then be off again.

I think people who are musicians and know something about the music making and theory of it might have a different perspective on things but this does not say that their understanding gives their word more weight on a personal level even though in part they might if they are influential affect the bigger picture, the canons of art. You can't rationalize and argue anyone to like anything they are not disposed to like when it comes to tastes and opinions. You might increase their understanding of it on theoretical, subtextual and structural level but in the end that is not going to turn their heads unless they are predisposed to do so themselves.

But so as not to derail this thread I have to say that I feel some of the woodwind usage of both Williams and Shore have some commonalities when LotR scores are concerned, which is a good thing. Or perhaps that is just me noting something that is missing in most other film music.

On the whole LotR music eschews some of the more obvious musical forms or structures like tying scenes to certain musical set piece forms like fugues and adagios or scherzos and the scores have a very concentrated thematic progression, which is nearly ever present. This makes for a strong musical story telling device but a friend noted that it also makes the scores somewhat restless in the sense that the ideas are flooding in back to back but many times lack lengthier development, when trying to catch all the beats of the scene theme-wise. I myself have not found this a problem at all but I am highly pro-theme in the first place and love Shore's interlaced thematic usage where he combines the ideas to form bigger constructs. And LotR certainly is not without its lengthy developments of single ideas either but not in such clearly isolated form that you would go "Aha here comes an adagio or elegy".

Williams on the other hand most often delineates his themes in clear renditions and tends not to pile them together more than two at a time. I think it is also a strength as he is without a doubt one of the pre-eminent thematic composers in terms of memorability and clarity of these ideas. This is not to say Williams would not construct thematic families like Shore does with his racial themes for LotR. War Horse has a wonderful interconnectivity between many of its themes, same goes for Tintin, Angela's Ashes and other scores where the progressions, mood and use link the themes together to form larger families. And again Williams does sometimes use quite dense constructs where he applies parts of many thematic ideas to form a more complex structure like Irina's demise scene in KotCS where he spins the 3-part Crystal Skull theme and Irina's Theme around the orchestra in a dazzling and fitting deconstruction. This more challenging material is quite often overlooked by people as it goes to the realms of modernism and is not straighforwardly melodically appealing.

While Williams is also a very cerebral artist and his music reflects that to an extent, his approach is most often visceral rather than hyper-subtextual. He in an old fashioned way is concerned about his gut reaction to the scene and writes very much by his own admission based on that and possible direction from the director for any given scene. He doesn't read scripts or novels. Shore on the other end of the spectrum tends to intellectualize the subject matter almost to a fault although I LotR's case he did the films a great favour to the movies and honored the novel by trying to achieve more than the usual depth for the score. In some of his other scores this overanalyzing leads to rather cerebrally complex but emotionally unappealing results.

[Hlao-roo 389]

I think it's unfortunate that people here celebrate film music at all when there are millions of human beings around the world mired in abject privation. The time utterly wasted here pitting composers against one another like action figures could be better spent helping our fellow man. We talk about scores that give us "pure sensations of goosebumps, laughter, and tears" but don't contemplate that we have the luxury of experiencing these emotions at our leisure, innocuously, and with complete inconsequentiality. We don't think of those shivering in the cold, crying because they don't know where there next meal will come from, and laughing bitterly at a world around them preoccupied with consumerism and empty pretension.

It doesn't matter whether you love Howard Shore or John Williams more or less or as much as the other. To expend energy loving either at all is to diminish yourself, and the world we live in..

[Incanus 5,716]

Well castigated Hlao-roo. Your old sardonic charm is irresistable.

I'll go now to do charity work for my penance of wasting my time trying to be a grey old voice of reason.

[Marcus 390]

OK, folks, I guess I should clarify a little:

I never intended to "pit" Shore against Williams, nor did I intend to belittle any effort of Shore's. I merely offered a reason -beyond mere tastes and personal sympathies- why one might prefer the work of one composer over the other. Shore's LotR scores seem to have become holy cows here, and that's fine, but I certainly wasn't attacking them, not at all!

Having said that, and especially given that some of you seem rather eager to "counter-attack" by suggesting that the musically educated among us are somehow restricted by our insights, and fail to appreciate music beyond its "theoretical" value, I will freely and most happily admit that my own response to Williams' music, and to all great art, for that matter, is first and foremost emotional. But I also get an intellectual kick (which can be surprisingly emotional too!) out of great craftsmanship!

[BloodBoal 7,538]

If I hear a score (film, or standalone) and I like it, I don't give a crap who wrote it, or their ability to orchestrate. If it's emotionally meaningful, then it's done its job.

+152.

No! Wait! +152,5!

[Incanus 5,716]

OK, folks, I guess I should clarify a little:

I never intended to "pit" Shore against Williams, nor did I intend to belittle any effort of Shore's. I merely offered a reason -beyond mere tastes and personal sympathies- why one might prefer the work of one composer over the other. Shore's LotR scores seem to have become holy cows here, and that's fine, but I certainly wasn't attacking them, not at all!

Having said that, and especially given that some of you seem rather eager to "counter-attack" by suggesting that the musically educated among us are somehow restricted by our insights, and fail to appreciate music beyond its "theoretical" value, I will freely and most happily admit that my own response to Williams' music, and to all great art, for that matter, is first and foremost emotional. But I also get an intellectual kick (which can be surprisingly emotional too!) out of great craftsmanship!

Actually Marcus we see eye to eye on most things Williams and your enthusiasm and insight on his music has been some of the best things I have read here on the subject. And what I find particularly heartwarming is your genuine ability to articulate and convey in words, sometimes more in musical and sometimes in more poetic terms, your love of Williams' music. I never meant to provoke you in particular with my posts.

I for my own part was observing a certain tendency of these threads to devolve into quite brash wielding of opinions as weapons, obliterating the constructive discussion in which I am sure those more versed in musical theory and music making can add tremendously as you actually can make more out of the music itself (read: written music) than most listeners. And I would never suggest that musicians do not feel the music or that the emotionality of it would not be of prime importance to them.

I am just saying that you really can't objectively prove some music worse or better on theoretical level either.

[Marcus 390]

Dear Incanus!

I was responding to more of a perceived "group reaction", to put it a little too bluntly, and perhaps a little more specifically to Quint's post (which I found very understandable, but in need of a clarifying reply).

Thank you for your very kind remarks, and may I rush to compliment you on your never-erring sense of perspective, reason and poetic prose!

[Quintus 5,399]

Another characteristic of this board (since Incanus is in a mood to list them), is prickly tension and touchy sensitivity whenever anyone dares to make light of the tone or given matter in relation to their, no - our - blessed maestro.

Speaking personally, I'm absolutely sick and tired of the broken record that presumes any counter argument, alternative angle or indeed jokish banter where Williams' music is concerned is automatically presumed to be a mean spirited afront to both the composer and his most loyal of fans. That in itself is a hoity and unassailable brand of arrogance which permeates the board easily just as much as the throwaway mockery and daily tit-for-tat, and yet those staunch fans act like their shit doesn't stink. Knock it off!

We all know there's a contingent of Williams followers who'd love nothing more than to keep this place a serious hub for all discussion about John Williams the composer sophisticate; happily sucking the personality and character out of the place while they're at it. Which is a shame and ridiculously selfish - since they must surely fail to realise that it's the fruity way and flow of this place which provides the forum's beating heart.

I was responding to more of a perceived "group reaction", to put it a little too bluntly, and perhaps a little more specifically to Quint's post (which I found very understandable, but in need of a clarifying reply).

Marcus, I've always very much enjoyed your extremely insightful posts, which are unfortunately rarer and rarer, but I'm afraid the musicians perspective is simply getting more and more predictable and tiresome. It's a historical thing here - for a musician to speak out in Williams' defense from a purely experience and technical standpoint - as if John's skill and sophistication automatically and just as a matter of course bests all [new]comers.

It's just a chronically limited pov to some fans here, and it all gets a bit boring when it shows up again and again.

[Hlao-roo 389]

If knocking down straw men is what it takes for you to get your frustrations out, Quint, then more power to you.

[Quintus 5,399]

It's not like you to venture out of your comfort zone, Alan. Carefully does it.

[Hlao-roo 389]

Baby steps.

[Quintus 5,399]

Mind you don't fall over.