The Howard Shore Middle Earth Score Showdown Poll! (An Unexpected Journey vs Fellowship of the Ring, musically)

[Faleel 5,348]

I hate the Breaking of the Fellowship tracking in the secene with Gandalf and Galadriel, it makes it too "the moral of the story is" to me.

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[Jay 37,364]

FotR had its problems too, but so many of the details were still intact and still brilliantly told the story.

What are your problems with the FOTR score as used in the film? It's easily the LEAST mucked with one out of all 4 films!

I hate the Breaking of the Fellowship tracking in the secene with Gandalf and Galadriel, it makes it too "the moral of the story is" to me.

Yes.

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[Jay 37,364]

That's what I mean by "newest films". FOTR is fine. TTT only really had the Nature's Reclamation tracking over Gandalf the White Theme, everything else is basically as intended. Then by ROTK PJ was actively asking Shore to use Nature's Reclamatation for the Rohan in newly written cues, there was more tracking, and by AUJ thematic integrity was thrown out the window in order for PJ to get the PRECISE mood he wanted for every scene, and as many callbacks to LOTR score as possible.

[KK 3,307]

FotR had its problems too, but so many of the details were still intact and still brilliantly told the story.

What are your problems with the FOTR score as used in the film? It's easily the LEAST mucked with one out of all 4 films!

Right, I was actually referring to all 3 films in general, than FotR specifically.

I do feel that in comes in too abruptly but I like the variation of the theme, it's more held back and reflective. When the shire whistle comes in though I love it.

It's not just that it comes too abruptly, its easily a cringe-worthy choice for that scene. Makes the conversation seem so much more cheesy and emotionally manipulative. I found it pathetic that there were scenes like that in the Hobbit, where PJ (or whoever was responsible) tried to use pivotal musical moments from LotR to try and stimulate similar emotions in a scene where none of that existed. That whole little sequence with the Breaking of the Fellowship music was laughable really.

Oh, right. Yea, it's an amazingly impressive feat. And even more frustrating when PJ undermines his thematic integrity by wanting themes used for other reasons in the final cut of the newest films

I agree that themes were misused but I can't held but think it happened too in LOTR. Looking back and reading Dougs book I see things like the nature theme being used for Rohan and Boromir's departure theme being used for Eoywn and Theoden. Of course he justifies their usage but I don't think the themes were written for those purposes. Back then there's was less awareness of the thematic complexity and since being recorded in Dougs book people don't really complain anymore. The themes misused in AUJ can be explained and will be in his next middle earth music book but also weren't use for their original purpose.

Right, the nature theme was more realistically used for the Rohirrim because PJ liked the mood it conveyed. But honestly, none of the thematic misuses were particularly jarring and were actually effective in context. The nature theme was brilliant in the Rohirrim charge at Pelennor. LotR had its blimps, but everything worked out in the bigger picture. None of that compares to the crazy moments like the Ringwraiths theme and Gondor Reborn placed in The Hobbit.

That's what I mean by "newest films". FOTR is fine. TTT only really had the Nature's Reclamation tracking over Gandalf the White Theme, everything else is basically as intended. Then by ROTK PJ was actively asking Shore to use Nature's Reclamatation for the Rohan in newly written cues, there was more tracking, and by AUJ thematic integrity was thrown out the window in order for PJ to get the PRECISE mood he wanted for every scene, and as many callbacks to LOTR score as possible.

Well put Jason! This pretty much explains all the tracking. As much as Doug might like to explain it with far-fetched theories of it how it all connects in the bigger picture. It was more likely just PJ taking past music and stuffing it in to get the exact mood he wants.

[Jay 37,364]

I do feel that in comes in too abruptly but I like the variation of the theme, it's more held back and reflective. When the shire whistle comes in though I love it.

It's not just that it comes too abruptly, its easily a cringe-worthy choice for that scene. Makes the conversation seem so much more cheesy and emotionally manipulative. I found it pathetic that there were scenes like that in the Hobbit, where PJ (or whoever was responsible) tried to use pivotal musical moments from LotR to try and stimulate similar emotions in a scene where none of that existed. That whole little sequence with the Breaking of the Fellowship music was laughable really.

Yes.

Right, the nature theme was more realistically used for the Rohirrim because PJ liked the mood it conveyed. But honestly, none of the thematic misuses were particularly jarring and were actually effective in context. The nature theme was brilliant in the Rohirrim charge at Pelennor. LotR had its blimps, but everything worked out in the bigger picture. None of that compares to the crazy moments like the Ringwraiths theme and Gondor Reborn placed in The Hobbit.

I agree. What PJ did in ROTK is NOTHING compared to what he has done to AUJ.

That's what I mean by "newest films". FOTR is fine. TTT only really had the Nature's Reclamation tracking over Gandalf the White Theme, everything else is basically as intended. Then by ROTK PJ was actively asking Shore to use Nature's Reclamatation for the Rohan in newly written cues, there was more tracking, and by AUJ thematic integrity was thrown out the window in order for PJ to get the PRECISE mood he wanted for every scene, and as many callbacks to LOTR score as possible.

Well put Jason! This pretty much explains all the tracking. As much as Doug might like to explain it with far-fetched theories of it how it all connects in the bigger picture. It was most probably just PJ taking past music and stuffing it in to get the exact mood he wants.

Yes, I agree. Like George Lucas before him, PJ seems to have surrounded himself with Yes Men, there doesn't seem to be anyone trying to talk him out of some of his most far-fetched ideas. The LOTR films felt like PJ at the helm of a team of incredible artists all collaborating to make the best movies possible. TH (so far) seems like PJ has his fingers in every aspect, and while many of the same brilliant artists are involved, they are all more of less giving PJ what he wants instead of there being more collaboration. At least that's the way it feels to me.

[gkgyver 1,645]

There will always be people who like the six Star Wars scores more, or Barry's run of James Bond scores.

For sure.

But the planning and execution of the Tolkien sextology, also in terms of themes and just intellectually, dwarfs the other projects.

Plus, I find Shore's music just gorgeous, and to have the perfect balance of superficial simplicity, which makes the music an awesome listen, and super-intelligent subtext, which brings an indefiite journey of discovery.

I do feel that in comes in too abruptly but I like the variation of the theme, it's more held back and reflective. When the shire whistle comes in though I love it.

Had Shore done a reworking of it and matched it to the scene, it may actually have been wonderful, but the crude tracking and editing ruins the moment.

[KK 3,307]

That's what I mean by "newest films". FOTR is fine. TTT only really had the Nature's Reclamation tracking over Gandalf the White Theme, everything else is basically as intended. Then by ROTK PJ was actively asking Shore to use Nature's Reclamatation for the Rohan in newly written cues, there was more tracking, and by AUJ thematic integrity was thrown out the window in order for PJ to get the PRECISE mood he wanted for every scene, and as many callbacks to LOTR score as possible.

Well put Jason! This pretty much explains all the tracking. As much as Doug might like to explain it with far-fetched theories of it how it all connects in the bigger picture. It was most probably just PJ taking past music and stuffing it in to get the exact mood he wants.

Yes, I agree. Like George Lucas before him, PJ seems to have surrounded himself with Yes Men, there doesn't seem to be anyone trying to talk him out of some of his most far-fetched ideas. The LOTR films felt like PJ at the helm of a team of incredible artists all collaborating to make the best movies possible. TH (so far) seems like PJ has his fingers in every aspect, and while many of the same brilliant artists are involved, they are all more of less giving PJ what he wants instead of there being more collaboration. At least that's the way it feels to me.

Exactly. PJ needs someone to help restrain him or say no. That's why FotR was the tightest film of the series, where PJ had the least amount of free reign.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I hate the Breaking of the Fellowship tracking in the secene with Gandalf and Galadriel, it makes it too "the moral of the story is" to me.

I hate it too!

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

Not too surprising that Fellowship mostly wins out here, barring The Adventure Begins vs. A Conspiracy Unmasked. I got so giddy the first time I heard the last minute of the former.

The one that really gave me pause, though, was The Hidden Valley vs. Rivendell. Something about The Hobbit's introduction of Rivendell seems much more dreamy to me, more in line with the overall feeling of the Elves and their world that I always get from Tolkien's work.

[Jay 37,364]

What's nice about AUJ is that you get to see Rivendell from a distance as the party approaches it, while in FOTR Frodo is unconscious when he arrives and then just wakes up there.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

True.

[Faleel 5,348]

Is it my imagination, is the first part (phrase?) of the Rivendell theme in The Hidden Valley cut in the film?

[gkgyver 1,645]

Not too surprising that Fellowship mostly wins out here, barring The Adventure Begins vs. A Conspiracy Unmasked. I got so giddy the first time I heard the last minute of the former.

The one that really gave me pause, though, was The Hidden Valley vs. Rivendell. Something about The Hobbit's introduction of Rivendell seems much more dreamy to me, more in line with the overall feeling of the Elves and their world that I always get from Tolkien's work.

I agree.

For me, The Hobbit's Rivendell music beats out FotR's Rivendell stuff.

Also, I prefer The White Council (extended) over The Council Of Elrond.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Well...it would be boring if we all felt the same way.

[gkgyver 1,645]

Is it my imagination, is the first part (phrase?) of the Rivendell theme in The Hidden Valley cut in the film?

It's your imagination

[Faleel 5,348]

Also, I prefer The White Council (extended) over The Council Of Elrond.

Even the Descending Third/Gondor/Hobbit/Fellowship startements 0_0

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[gkgyver 1,645]

Also, I prefer The White Council (extended) over The Council Of Elrond.

Even the Descending Third/Gondor/Hobbit/Fellowship startements 0_0

Well, as far as individual themes are concerned, I think Council of Elrond has White Council beaten. But as a stand alone piece of music, I prefer the better flow of the latter. The choral passage towards the end is gorgeous.

[Gnome in Plaid 219]

I'm really the only person who voted for "Brass Buttons?"

[KK 3,307]

Over one of the greatest action set-pieces of the post-2000s?

[Jay 37,364]

Yea that one was a clear no brainer

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I wouldn't vote for a single AUJ track over FOTR, and certainly not in that instance.

[Incanus 5,714]

9 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

I wouldn't vote for a single AUJ track over FOTR, and certainly not in that instance.

Agreed. While the Hobbit scores are quite admirable in their own right, they don't quite capture the lightning in the bottle for a second time.

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[Incanus 5,714]

They do indeed but even I, one of the proponents of the Hobbit scores, have to admit that as good as they are they are not the Lord of the Rings.

[Jay 37,364]

There are many moments in the The Hobbit scores that are just as good as anything in the LOTR scores.  But as a whole the end result is far less effective than what LOTR accomplished.  I do not think this is at all due to Shore losing interest, or not being as good of a composer as he was 10 years ago, or anything like that.  I think its largely due to the decision to split the films from 2 to 3 mid-post-production, and then the continuing and constant changes the films kept receiving from that point on, including the big change to the writing and recording process.

 

I think AUJ really sets up a new bed of themes, tones, and ideas that the remaining scores really didn't capitalize on (so many themes completely abandoned!), and I think that is much more to due with Peter Jackson than Shore.

Oh well....

[Incanus 5,714]

41 minutes ago, Jay said:

There are many moments in the The Hobbit scores that are just as good as anything in the LOTR scores.  But as a whole the end result is far less effective than what LOTR accomplished.  I do not think this is at all due to Shore losing interesting, or not being as good of a composer as he was 10 years ago, or anything like that.  I think its largely due to the decision to split the films from 2 to 3 mid-post-production, and then the continuing and constant changes the films kept receiving from that point on, including the big change to the writing and recording process.

 

I think AUJ really sets up a new bed of themes, tones, and ideas that the remaining scores really didn't capitalize on (so many themes completely abandoned!), and I think that is much more to due with Peter Jackson than Shore.

Oh well....

Yeah there are quite a few factors at work with how the Hobbit films (and scores) ended up. Shore's dedication and work was no less I am sure and of course there is the fact that it is not a brand new thing anymore with 3 hugely succesful scores preceding the other three and they set the bar very high. But it is an admirable expansion of the original musical world and its architecture but overall a notch below the LotR material.

[Jay 37,364]

Another facet is, of course, that LOTR is a epic, world-spanning story about overcoming ultimate evil to save the entire world - the stakes are at their absolute max, and the emotions involved come through in the score.

 

The Hobbit films are, ultimately, a story of this big battle that happened one time, and a Hobbit who came out of his shell and learned to adventure during the events that led up to it.  It was never going to have the grand payoff LOTR does (not should it have), but we still could have gotten a much richer middle and ending section if Jackson hadn't lost his mind.

 

Oh well....

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[KK 3,307]

DoS is my favourite of the bunch, and closest to LOTR in scope and ambition (though AUJ is more obviously closest in sound). There are several highlights mixed in the scores that reach LOTR-level at points, but as a whole, these scores ultimately fall short.

[Bilbo 3,709]

Yeah, I think DOS is my favourite of the scores too. I think the highlights on the other two scores are bigger but DoS is a much better score as a whole. Overall I very happy with the three scores we got even if they don't quite reach the heights of LotR. Then again, I never really expected them (or indeed the films) to reach those heights anyway. 

 

Want complete recordings. 

[Jay 37,364]

I love DOS.

 

For me BOFA was a huge disappoint, with very little memorable moments.  And it didn't feel like a sequel score to DOS nor a conclusion of what started with AUJ.  It was kind of its own thing.

[KK 3,307]

I don't know. Highlights like "The Forest River", "Beyond the Forest" and that awesome choral climax for Smaug speak to me more than the high points of the other scores.

 

But I agree, take them away from the LOTR pedestal, and you can appreciate them a lot more I think.

[Jay 37,364]

Also, the three Hobbit scores are easily among the best scores of 2012-2014.  They only really suffer in comparison to the same composer's previous grand masterpiece.

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[Jay 37,364]

I really hope we get complete releases for all 3 scores.  And I'd be happier if they didn't mimick the LOTR:CR models, but instead mimmicked the specialty label model.  By that I mean, that they contain the complete final version of the score as the main program, and all the earlier versions that were recorded as bonus tracks at the end.  (Or vice versa, where we get Shore's preferred versions as the main program and other recorded versions in a bonus track section).  The LOTR:CR model (one version of every cue and no bonus tracks) made sense at the time, but I'd love to see them evolve their ideology.

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[Jay 37,364]

That could work too, assuming that a 2 disc set per film plus 1 disc rarities disc would be 100% complete.

 

The problem with that model, though, is that its unlikely the rarities disc would sell very well.  Ideally, it could be packaged in Doug's book when that comes out.

 

But frankly if its not complete it will be very annoying.

[Bilbo 3,709]

32 minutes ago, KK. said:

I don't know. Highlights like "The Forest River", "Beyond the Forest" and that awesome choral climax for Smaug speak to me more than the high points of the other scores.

 

But I agree, take them away from the LOTR pedestal, and you can appreciate them a lot more I think.

 

Actually when you put it like that they're easily two of my favourite cues from any release in recent years ?

[Jay 37,364]

Totally agreed

[Incanus 5,714]

We can only dream of CRs at this point although with luck the Rarities might be forth coming sooner with Doug's book.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Is there actually any real reason to have another book though? Objectively speaking.

 

What did Shore do differently with The Hobbit trilogy to such an extent that it warrants another text book?

[Incanus 5,714]

1 minute ago, Stefancos said:

Is there actually any real reason to have another book though? Objectively speaking.

 

What did Shore do differently with The Hobbit trilogy to such an extent that it warrants another text book?

Does the value of such a book have to rely on "new" and "different" aspect alone? It is still a new work, granted in the same style as the previous scores but new none the less with its own set of challenges and processes and structures that can be examined. At the same time it is akin to an in-depth look into both the mechanics (or musical theory) and the narrative aspects of this music and a glimpse into the process of creating it.

 

And I would say even if it sounds a bit lofty and pretentious that the more books written on the art of film music the better and hopefully this is slowly but surely seen as a worthy pursuit and that this unique combination of sound and image receives more examinations like this.

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[Jay 37,364]

2 hours ago, SafeUnderHill said:

 

I meant the rarities disc for each film be included at the end of each CR set.

 

They didn't record enough music for that.  All the alternate versions that got recorded would fit on a single disc.  That's why we have a stronger chance of 100% complete releases this time;  All we need is 7 discs for the whole shebang (2discs per film containing 1 version of every cue, 1 bonus disc of all other recorded versions)

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[Jay 37,364]

I know, which is precisely why expanded releases seem so unlikely this time.  If we had only gotten 1disc OSTs, I think CRs would be more likely.  That combined with the fact that the films weren't as well received... I dunno.  I wouldn't be a surprised if a disc of stuff bundled with Doug's book is all we get.

[SafeUnderHill 205]