Why certain BIG directors haven't worked with John Williams?

[Thor 7,529]

To reply to the original post, Williams has worked on so many films with Spielberg and Lucas, it reduced his availability a great deal.

As for Woody Allen, he couldn't possibly afford JW.

Ridley Scott is another matter. It's possible Jerry Goldsmith told him what a disappointment Alien had been to him. As much as I love Howard Hanson's symphony - and I am grateful to Scott because that's how learned of its existence - , I still don't understand why Scott replaced Goldsmith amazing End Title track with Hanson's composition. It just doesn't make sense to do that on exit music. There is no excuse. And that was just the cherry on the cake...

And then, after having been lured to work with Scott again on Legend (another great JG score) it became another kind of nightmare (having his score replaced by tangerine Dream for the US release). So Williams and Scott: this could have turned into a legendary Hollywood clash!

This is quite off-topic, but I disagree with your sentiments. I prefer Scott's choices for ALIEN over Goldsmith's (and yes, that includes the Hanson excerpt over the end credits) and think the Tangerine Dream score has elements that surpass the Goldsmith on LEGEND (but also vice versa on other elements).

[Alejandro 26]

The problem Jerry had was that Ridley didn't communicate well. Composers dread directors that don't communicate well.

To reply to the original post, Williams has worked on so many films with Spielberg and Lucas, it reduced his availability a great deal.

As for Woody Allen, he couldn't possibly afford JW.

Ridley Scott is another matter. It's possible Jerry Goldsmith told him what a disappointment Alien had been to him. As much as I love Howard Hanson's symphony - and I am grateful to Scott because that's how learned of its existence - , I still don't understand why Scott replaced Goldsmith amazing End Title track with Hanson's composition. It just doesn't make sense to do that on exit music. There is no excuse. And that was just the cherry on the cake...

And then, after having been lured to work with Scott again on Legend (another great JG score) it became another kind of nightmare (having his score replaced by tangerine Dream for the US release). So Williams and Scott: this could have turned into a legendary Hollywood clash!

This is quite off-topic, but I disagree with your sentiments. I prefer Scott's choices for ALIEN over Goldsmith's (and yes, that includes the Hanson excerpt over the end credits) and think the Tangerine Dream score has elements that surpass the Goldsmith on LEGEND (but also vice versa on other elements).

[A24 4,348]

The problem Jerry had was that Ridley didn't communicate well. Composers dread directors that don't communicate well.

To reply to the original post, Williams has worked on so many films with Spielberg and Lucas, it reduced his availability a great deal.

As for Woody Allen, he couldn't possibly afford JW.

Ridley Scott is another matter. It's possible Jerry Goldsmith told him what a disappointment Alien had been to him. As much as I love Howard Hanson's symphony - and I am grateful to Scott because that's how learned of its existence - , I still don't understand why Scott replaced Goldsmith amazing End Title track with Hanson's composition. It just doesn't make sense to do that on exit music. There is no excuse. And that was just the cherry on the cake...

And then, after having been lured to work with Scott again on Legend (another great JG score) it became another kind of nightmare (having his score replaced by tangerine Dream for the US release). So Williams and Scott: this could have turned into a legendary Hollywood clash!

This is quite off-topic, but I disagree with your sentiments. I prefer Scott's choices for ALIEN over Goldsmith's (and yes, that includes the Hanson excerpt over the end credits) and think the Tangerine Dream score has elements that surpass the Goldsmith on LEGEND (but also vice versa on other elements).

That could mean that composers working for Ridley Scott must rely more on their own interpretation. This could have lead to different and sometimes perhaps better results.

[Arnaud 6]

To reply to the original post, Williams has worked on so many films with Spielberg and Lucas, it reduced his availability a great deal.

As for Woody Allen, he couldn't possibly afford JW.

Ridley Scott is another matter. It's possible Jerry Goldsmith told him what a disappointment Alien had been to him. As much as I love Howard Hanson's symphony - and I am grateful to Scott because that's how learned of its existence - , I still don't understand why Scott replaced Goldsmith amazing End Title track with Hanson's composition. It just doesn't make sense to do that on exit music. There is no excuse. And that was just the cherry on the cake...

And then, after having been lured to work with Scott again on Legend (another great JG score) it became another kind of nightmare (having his score replaced by tangerine Dream for the US release). So Williams and Scott: this could have turned into a legendary Hollywood clash!

This is quite off-topic, but I disagree with your sentiments. I prefer Scott's choices for ALIEN over Goldsmith's (and yes, that includes the Hanson excerpt over the end credits) and think the Tangerine Dream score has elements that surpass the Goldsmith on LEGEND (but also vice versa on other elements).

Hello Thor, I don't see how this was off topic... Anyway, now it may be. Regarding Alien, to each his own taste. Still, it makes no sense to bring totally new melodic material during End Credits just because Scott and his editor fell in love with their temp track. As for Legend, there is simply no way to show more disdain to a composer than to replace his score. All this can't have endeared Scott to the likes of Williams.

[filmmusic 1,843]

As for Legend, there is simply no way to show more disdain to a composer than to replace his score. All this can't have endeared Scott to the likes of Williams.

I'm almost sure that Ridley Scott loved the Jerry Goldsmith score for LEGEND, and the decision to replace it for the US release was the producers'. Not his!

Apparently they felt that the American audience was less mature than the European one, to accept a classical symphonic score, and they would accept a pop electronic score much better.

[TownerFan 4,983]

Legend was a very troubled production. Goldsmith's score was one of the many casualties that were lying on the ground.

As for the post-production retooling of Goldsmith's original score in Alien, it was probably heavier than necessary, but in the end the music in the film works very well nonetheless. I too think Goldsmith's original end title cue would have worked better, btw. It would have given the same sense of respite and serenity that Scott and Rawlings were searching for when they chose Hanson's piece. Anyway, it is what it is.

[karelm 2,915]

It's a combination of factors, not just the faulty years and biographical elements. Of course, I could be wrong. It was just a hunch. But a strong hunch.

You rely on your hunches too much and treat them as evidence. This is a great and rare vintage interview.

[TownerFan 4,983]

That could mean that composers working for Ridley Scott must rely more on their own interpretation. This could have lead to different and sometimes perhaps better results.

No, I think this speaks more about several directors' habits and preferences when it comes to collaborate with a composer. Many filmmakers simply have hard time to accept that another person enters the scene and applies his/her own vision into what they see as their film. When it comes to music (i.e. an original score), the director should collaborate and exchange ideas with the composer, communicating his vision as crystal-clear as he/she could... but in the end the music will always be the creative result of the mind of another individual. There are composers who are brilliant in getting perfectly right the sensibilities and the preferences of the director, because of mutual vision of the film and of the world as well. But there are many other cases where the composer has hard time to understand what the director wants. Some directors arrive to the point of micromanaging and hyper-analyzing the work of the composer, hence it's likely they will probably clash over many things. It also must be said that there are composers who are really into their own world and want to put their own big stamp over the film, a kind of signature that will mark the picture inevitably. It's really a two-way communication that happens between two creative people (or at least it should be).

From what I see, the working relationship between director and composer is like analysis. A lot of things happen in the unsaid region of the respective minds much more than we think.

[ShowUStheHOOK 8]

I think I read in an interview with Burton that Warner Brothers was suggesting Williams for BATMAN in 1989. ( They didn't think Danny had the experience to pull off such a score)

[Thor 7,529]

Hello Thor, I don't see how this was off topic... Anyway, now it may be. Regarding Alien, to each his own taste. Still, it makes no sense to bring totally new melodic material during End Credits just because Scott and his editor fell in love with their temp track. As for Legend, there is simply no way to show more disdain to a composer than to replace his score. All this can't have endeared Scott to the likes of Williams.

I think the Hanson piece works better over the end credits than the original JG cue. Has the same sense of serenity while also drawing a parallell to human creation in art history, 2001-style. I also think the other, more minor changes that Rawlings and Scott did was better than the original score cues. As for LEGEND, the decision to replace the score wasn't Scott's (as others have said), but the producers. Both scores have their values and disadvantages, IMO.

It's a combination of factors, not just the faulty years and biographical elements. Of course, I could be wrong. It was just a hunch. But a strong hunch.

You rely on your hunches too much and treat them as evidence. This is a great and rare vintage interview.

I don't think I've said anything about 'evidence'. But I agree...it's a fine interview that I'm able to enjoy, even if I doubt the authenticity of certain passages. It's possible to do both.

[TownerFan 4,983]

I think I read in an interview with Burton that Warner Brothers was suggesting Williams for BATMAN in 1989. ( They didn't think Danny had the experience to pull off such a score)

Producers Jon Peters and Peter Guber wanted an estabilished name for the music because they wanted a big symphonic score and they thought Elfman wasn't household name enough. They also tried to cram rock/pop artists into the score. As we know, Prince wrote a handful of songs for the movie, but at one point they also tried to get George Michael and other people. With this premises, Elfman was ready to quit the assignment, but fortunately Burton stayed behind him and convinced producers to let him doing his thing.

[karelm 2,915]

That could mean that composers working for Ridley Scott must rely more on their own interpretation. This could have lead to different and sometimes perhaps better results.

No, I think this speaks more about several directors' habits and preferences when it comes to collaborate with a composer. Many filmmakers simply have hard time to accept that another person enters the scene and applies his/her own vision into what they see as their film. When it comes to music (i.e. an original score), the director should collaborate and exchange ideas with the composer, communicating his vision as crystal-clear as he/she could... but in the end the music will always be the creative result of the mind of another individual. There are composers who are brilliant in getting perfectly right the sensibilities and the preferences of the director, because of mutual vision of the film and of the world as well. But there are many other cases where the composer has hard time to understand what the director wants. Some directors arrive to the point of micromanaging and hyper-analyzing the work of the composer, hence it's likely they will probably clash over many things. It also must be said that there are composers who are really into their own world and want to put their own big stamp over the film, a kind of signature that will mark the picture inevitably. It's really a two-way communication that happens between two creative people (or at least it should be).

From what I see, the working relationship between director and composer is like analysis. A lot of things happen in the unsaid region of the respective minds much more than we think.

Another important point is that Scott's background was in directing commercials where you have "drop in" scores. It is clear that Scott treated the score as a drop in score so even when music was written for very specific scene by goldsmith, Scott might drop it in somewhere else. This would infuriate a craftsman composer who works very hard on scene specific scoring. I doubt Scott even understood why this was a problem for goldsmith given Scott's experience at the time that it was common practice in adds. I also think it shows why he's more comfortable with the remote control drop in style of score writing.

[TownerFan 4,983]

Another important point is that Scott's background was in directing commercials where you have "drop in" scores. It is clear that Scott treated the score as a drop in score so even when music was written for very specific scene by goldsmith, Scott might drop it in somewhere else. This would infuriate a craftsman composer who works very hard on scene specific scoring. I doubt Scott even understood why this was a problem for goldsmith given Scott's experience at the time that it was common practice in adds. I also think it shows why he's more comfortable with the remote control drop in style of score writing.

That's surely something that played (and still plays) a role in many directors' habits, not just Ridley Scott. Modern technologies also give the opportunity to change, modify and retool a lot of things in post-production, in most cases to the detriment of the composer's work. Some directors (and mixers/dubbers/editors as well) simply don't see the point when moving around (i.e. tracking/looping) with music---from their point of view, they're just trying to make things work better. Composers are mostly aware of this, btw. They know that a certain musical continuity they envisioned and put on paper can really go to the dogs during the dubbing. It's always a challenge.

[Marian Schedenig 8,211]

That could mean that composers working for Ridley Scott must rely more on their own interpretation. This could have lead to different and sometimes perhaps better results.

Except that in Scott's case, it seems to have lead to rejected or at least partially unused scores instead.

I'm almost sure that Ridley Scott loved the Jerry Goldsmith score for LEGEND, and the decision to replace it for the US release was the producers'. Not his!

Possible. Scott may just not have had enough balls to stand up to the producers, unlike Gilliam who successfully defended his Kamen score the same year (although apparently his film's ending was still replaced).

Still, even the European cut of Legend has only a rather edited and crippled version of Goldsmith's score.

[A24 4,348]

Sidney Sheinberg, president of MCA, decided that Legend needed a new score. In case of Alien, Scott and probably Rawlings thought some of Jerry's score sounded too much like typical monster music, so that music didn't make the movie.

I'm not a fan of Legend (the movie) or Tangerine Dream but I would like to see the US version and the longer The director's Cut of the film.

Alex

[filmmusic 1,843]

I'm not a fan of Legend (the movie) or Tangerine Dream but I would like to see the US version and the longer The director's Cut of the film.

Alex

If you haven't seen it (with the Goldsmith score), you should!

It's one of my favourite combinations of film + music, and the score is my favourite Goldsmith score ever!

[Alejandro 26]

With Legend, two different studios released it when it came to domestic and international release. One kept Goldsmith and the other demanded a replacement score. Both wanted cuts in various places, one extreme and one not so extreme.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Williams and Richard Lester. He should have worked wih this man!