Most original pieces of music JW has written

[Not Mr. Big 4,642]

"The Street Singer" from The Phantom Menace.

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

Strange that no-one has mentioned "The Abduction of Barry", possibly the most avant-garde thing JW has ever written.

It's a bit of a Penderecki rip-off, as much as I love it.

[Arnaud 6]

I'm trying to prove to a classical music friend that JW is original,

Dear Indy4,

May I ask you what you hope to achieve by doing that?

It seems to me that this thread is more about your friend than it is about the music of John Williams.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Well it would seem, and I may be wrong here, that he's trying to prove that JW is original to his classical music friend. The thread is thus about the originality of JW's music.

[Joni Wiljami 1,206]

Strange that no-one has mentioned "The Abduction of Barry", possibly the most avant-garde thing JW has ever written.

It's a bit of a Penderecki rip-off, as much as I love it.

Not really. More tha the whole score is a Ligeti rip-off. No.

[Bespin 8,484]

@Indy4

Maybe the two most "classical" scores of John Williams are Schindler's List (with great classical violonist Itzhak Perlman) and Seven Years in Tibet (with great classical cellist Yo-Yo Ma).

Try to convice your friend to listen to these scores first if he don't know JW!

[indy4 155]

The problem with SL is that the main theme comes from Mahler's 9th symphony. It's a pretty superficial similarity, but it can still be used as ammo by non-believers. But I agree 7 Years is a great example!

Anyways the conversation between my friend and I is pretty much over. I got her to concede--mostly by showing her examples of classical composers stealing from each other--that it was not his unoriginality that she disliked, but rather his "vapidity." At that point I gave up and considered it a victory. Vapiditiy is so subjective it's not worth arguing with someone predisposed to hating JW. At least I got her to concede his originality.

Still, it's an interesting topic IMO. Never understood why people are so quick to stifle perfectly harmless discussion on a, you know, discussion board.

Strange that no-one has mentioned "The Abduction of Barry", possibly the most avant-garde thing JW has ever written.

It's a bit of a Penderecki rip-off, as much as I love it.

Not really. More tha the whole score is a Ligeti rip-off. No.

Interesting. Is this the piece you're referring to?

There are defintiely some important similarities, but I wouldn't say the entire score is a Ligeti rip (unless there are other pieces you have in mind?).

[Bespin 8,484]

@Indy4

It's so easy to say : oh there's the same 7 notes on this or this classical piece... Music is music you know... Over the decades, classical composers parodied themselves first (hey, they where no radio & no discs in that time!), then they usually parodied the other composers that came before them, usually for an "hommage".

That's being sayed, I never listened to a JW piece yet that was a "stolen" theme from a classical composer. There are few notes that are similar and that's normal, but the development of the themes are ALWAYS very different, the style is very very different too, and that's the beauty of music : DEVELOPMENT and STYLE.

That's a part of the genius of JW I think.

[indy4 155]

Yup, I agree with you. That's what I meant when I said it was a superficial similarity. But it's not the best example to use if you're trying ot prove to somebody who is predisposed to look down on JW's music.

[Hlao-roo 389]

I'm trying to prove to a classical music friend that JW is original,

Dear Indy4,

May I ask you what you hope to achieve by doing that?

It seems to me that this thread is more about your friend than it is about the music of John Williams.

It's obvious that indy4's participation at this board has been little more than an elaborate scheme to achieve "victory" over his friend. I feel used, and so should everyone else here. 17176 posts -- all for something so shallow. Sad.

[Bespin 8,484]

@Indy4

All I can say, is that classical music is now the main music I listen to and that's not incompatible with an immense respect and love for John William's music.

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

Strange that no-one has mentioned "The Abduction of Barry", possibly the most avant-garde thing JW has ever written.

It's a bit of a Penderecki rip-off, as much as I love it.

Not really. More tha the whole score is a Ligeti rip-off. No.

Spielberg originally temped Barry's Abduction with Threnody for the Victims of Hiroshima.

[Thor 7,529]

He did? Where can I read that?

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

Neil Lerner’s 'Nostalgia, Masculinist Discourse, and Authoritarianism in John Williams.'

[Thor 7,529]

Thanks for the tip. I'd love to read that.

[Edit: Found the essay online. It seems like Lerner is only extrapolating that particular piece, based on a comment by Ken Wannberg that some Penderecki was used for the scene. In any case, it's interesting that -- according to Wannberg -- a temp score was used, as I was under the impression Spielberg didn't do much of that]

[TownerFan 4,983]

Williams himself said once in an interview that Spielberg uses temp tracks all the time. I'll get the exact quote as soon as I find it.

[Arnaud 6]

Still, it's an interesting topic IMO. Never understood why people are so quick to stifle perfectly harmless discussion on a, you know, discussion board.

Dear Indy4, it was clear to me from the start that your friend - whom you described as your 'classical music friend' - had what I would call an intellectual issue with film music. This is also known as a form of snobbery. Did you expect that once proven that Williams was original (this already very much a condescending issue coming from a closed and prejudiced mind - not yours, hers), she would drop her prejudices and suddenly come to appreciate his music? This is why I felt that the topic you started was not about the originality of John Williams' music but really about your friend and her ability to come to love it.

There are plenty of people on these boards who love all kinds of music - including classical - in addition to John Williams. There are no contradictions at all. Anyone saying there is doesn't really appreciate music in my opinion. Some of these people claim to love classical music only because it makes them feel cleverer or superior to others but it has little to do with actual appreciation. Until they mature a little. Unfortunately some, never daring to leave their usual circles or unable to challenge what they have been taught, will never mature. It is a fact that we judge and we are judged by what we claim to like or not like. Many people from all kinds of places on the social ladder are never taught to be free and never taught to never be ashamed of what they like. They are condemned to merely follow the norm.

On the other hand, it is a great gift to raise one's kids with the ability to explain to others and the desire to share with others what they love and why they love it. Because ultimately it's only about appreciating music and getting more joy from this world. If your friend doesn't like JW's music for whatever reasons, well, that's her loss.

Finally, if you were not trying to help your friend discover John Williams to share something you love with her but merely having a rhetorical joust with her then it was indeed a waste of time. Anyone not seeing that John Williams' music is wholly original needs to have their ears and their musical education checked or is simply beyond saving!

[Koray Savas 2,251]

The man was just trying to get laid, leave him be!

[Naïve Old Fart 9,556]

He did? Where can I read that?

Where can I get that?!

[pixie_twinkle 48]

I don't really see anything positive coming of trying to prove to someone that Williams' music is particularly original. You are only asking for trouble. I have never loved Williams' music for its originality. I love his craft and his ability to write striking and powerful music. I love his incredible grasp of orchestration and colour. I love his melodic writing, and his ability to interweave themes and to develop them throughout a score. There is so much to love about Williams without having to try to prove that he is particularly original. There is very little in Williams musical style that I have not heard in previous composers. Williams is like Bach in that respect. Bach wasn't particularly original or experimental either. Most of the musical styles and forms employed by Bach had been around for decades before Bach used them. Bach just happened to use them more effectively than any composer had previously. If people can't enjoy the music of Williams for what it is (effective, emotive, clever, highly inventive, masterfully orchestrated, powerful and often beautiful music), then they don't get what his music is all about, and there's certainly no point in trying to convince them it's original.

Dear Indy4, it was clear to me from the start that your friend - whom you described as your 'classical music friend' - had what I would call an intellectual issue with film music. This is also known as a form of snobbery. Did you expect that once proven that Williams was original (this already very much a condescending issue coming from a closed and prejudiced mind - not yours, hers), she would drop her prejudices and suddenly come to appreciate his music? This is why I felt that the topic you started was not about the originality of John Williams' music but really about your friend and her ability to come to love it.

There are plenty of people on these boards who love all kinds of music - including classical - in addition to John Williams. There are no contradictions at all. Anyone saying there is doesn't really appreciate music in my opinion. Some of these people claim to love classical music only because it makes them feel cleverer or superior to others but it has little to do with actual appreciation. Until they mature a little. Unfortunately some, never daring to leave their usual circles or unable to challenge what they have been taught, will never mature. It is a fact that we judge and we are judged by what we claim to like or not like. Many people from all kinds of places on the social ladder are never taught to be free and never taught to never be ashamed of what they like. They are condemned to merely follow the norm.

!

Exactly.

[Bespin 8,484]

Bach wasn't particularly original or experimental either. Most of the musical styles and forms employed by Bach had been around for decades before Bach used them. Bach just happened to use them more effectively than any composer had previously.

The parallel between Bach and Williams is great, but I totally disagree when you write that Bach was not original.

Bach surpassed all his rivals. He left a very large number of compositions, which distinguish themselves by the rise of the style, by the originality, and by the surprising wealth of melodies and the effects.

But contrary to Williams, Bach was not understood at the end of his life, and looked "old-fashionned" in the eyes of his contemporaries.

I don't think this is the case for John Williams

Williams is the father of the revival of the film music, of a melodic and harmonious originality which we owe to his technical level and to his extraordinary knowledge of all the musics of the world.

[pixie_twinkle 48]

Bach wasn't particularly original or experimental either. Most of the musical styles and forms employed by Bach had been around for decades before Bach used them. Bach just happened to use them more effectively than any composer had previously.

The parallel between Bach and Williams is great, but I totally disagree when you write that Bach was not original.

Bach surpassed all his rivals. He left a very large number of compositions, which distinguish themselves by the rise of the style, by the originality, and by the surprising wealth of melodies and the effects.

But contrary to Williams, Bach was not understood at the end of his life, and looked "old-fashionned" in the eyes of his contemporaries.

I don't think this is the case for John Williams

Williams is the father of the revival of the film music, of a melodic and harmonious originality which we owe to his technical level and to his extraordinary knowledge of all the musics of the world.

Another Bach fan! Believe me, my comment about Bach's orginality was purely based on his stylistic trends. Nothing to do with his melody writing, mastery of form, and general genius. Bach is one of my favourite composers, and I have a frightening amount of his music on CD (about 9 days worth according to my iTunes). Strangely my love of Bach is a fairly recent thing. As a younger man I found his music too academic, too mechanical, too other-worldly. My passion was always for the more obvious Williams influences, like Vaughan Williams, Mahler, Debussy, Stravinsky etc. I liked my melodies big, my orchestration sweeping, and for the music to be big on humanity and personality. It wasn't until I reached my mid thirties that I discovered the spirituality in Bach's "pure" or "absolute" music. My wife went through a terrible time health-wise about 5 years ago, and for two years we had to go through hospital visits, admissions, nail-biting and other unpleasantness. The only music I could listen to during that awful period was Bach. Grander, more romantic, more egotistical (nothing wrong with ego in music by the way) music of my other favourite composers like Vaughan Williams was not speaking to me in the same way as the pure, logical music of Bach. Finally I now understand what Douglas Adams meant when he wrote that Bach's music was actually a transcription of the music of heaven, in Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency. And that despite the fact that Douglas Adams and I are both atheists! IF there was a heaven, Bach's music would almost certainly be its soundtrack.

[Bespin 8,484]

@pixie_twinkle

Well said. God probably does not exist, but if someone use his faith to elevate himself or at least try to be a better person (and that's what Bach did), who am I to juge that.

"I'm not a particularly religious person, but there's something sort of eerie, about the way our hands are occasionally guided in some of the things that we do. It can happen in any aspect, any phase of human endeavor where we come to the right solutions almost in spite of ourselves. And you look back and you say that that almost seems to have a kind of—you want to use the word divine guidance—behind it. It can make you believe in miracles in any collaborative art form: the theatre, film, any of this, when all these aspects come together to form a humming engine that works and the audience is there for it and they're ready for it and willing to embrace it. That is a kind of miracle also." - John Williams

http://www.filmscoremonthly.com/features/williams.asp