Howard Shore's The Battle of the Five Armies (Hobbit Part 3)

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Incanus 5,722]

Scene was definitely forced...totally lacked any subtlety. Made me cringe.

But honestly, when you have a scene like that, you really have no choice but to employ the Fellowship theme. And at least Shore did it tastefully.

I am cutting the scene out of my fan edit!

[KK 3,307]

But honestly, when you have a scene like that, you really have no choice but to employ the Fellowship theme.

No choice? Come on! You always have a choice! You have the Woodland Realm theme and the Heroics of Aragorn theme at your disposal! The fellowship won't be formed until 60 years later!

Why would Shore use the Woodland Realm theme when the whole intent of the scene is to cry "Fellowship!!!"? And who the hell is going to recognize the Heroics of Aragorn?

The scene is meant to be a fan service, albeit a terrible one, but Shore can only score it as it is. And any composer would have done the same. It was the only logical choice.

And you honestly think PJ would have let Shore get away with scoring the scene with any other theme or nondescript underscore?

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[KK 3,307]

You should have seen it coming! The Hobbit references in FOTR are hardly subtle.

Uhh...they appear virtually non-existent in comparison the LOTR references in these films!

But honestly, when you have a scene like that, you really have no choice but to employ the Fellowship theme.

No choice? Come on! You always have a choice! You have the Woodland Realm theme and the Heroics of Aragorn theme at your disposal! The fellowship won't be formed until 60 years later!

Neither was the fellowship formed when Gandalf went to Isengard!

And that's why it doesn't sound complete or fulfilled in that moment! The theme stands for both the company and the quest. So when you mention the company or the quest, or see one of them in action, you can bet on the music doing its due service as well!

[BloodBoal 7,538]

The scene is meant to be a fan service, albeit a terrible one, but Shore can only score it as it is.

Thank you, that's all I needed to hear.

And you honestly think PJ would have let Shore get away with scoring the scene with any other theme or nondescript underscore?

No. I was just saying there was other choices. Nothing more!

[Faleel 5,371]

If watched in order (along with not making sense) the LOTR references become Hobbit references!

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[KK 3,307]

If watched in order (along with not making sense) the LOTR references become Hobbit references!

If the LotR films were made today, we would see pictures of Thorin in Bag End, Gandalf would hear Smaug's voice as he picks up the map, Frodo would find Azog's hook hand on Weathertop, we would see at least five of the dwarves from The Hobbit in the Council of Elrond, Tauriel would become a member of the Fellowship and fall in love with Gimli, Bard would join the Siege of Gondor with an army from Dale and Legolas would slay the Witch-King, bring down Barad-dur and destroy the One Ring in a spectacular 10 minute sequence of CG extravaganza!

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Faleel 5,371]

If watched in order (along with not making sense) the LOTR references become Hobbit references!

If the LotR films were made today, Frodo would find Azog's hook hand on Weathertop.

Why would he? Azog had his Hook hand well after that.

Yes which is why I'm saying the excuse for not having it in that BOTFA due to the fellowship not being formed is bollocks.

The quest hasn't even started in BOFA and won't until 60 years later. When Gandalf goes to Isengard, the quest is aldready set into motion.

I'm gonna start sighing if this discussion goes on longer...

The quest was set into motion when the ring was found!

[KK 3,307]

Because, everything is connected dude!

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Faleel 5,371]

And the film i think. (though not Hambleton)

[Incanus 5,722]

If watched in order (along with not making sense) the LOTR references become Hobbit references!

If the LotR films were made today, we would see pictures of Thorin in Bag End, Gandalf would hear Smaug's voice as he picks up the map, Frodo would find Azog's hook hand on Weathertop, we would see at least five of the dwarves from The Hobbit in the Council of Elrond, Tauriel would become a member of the Fellowship and fall in love with Gimli, Bard would join the Siege of Gondor with an army from Dale and Legolas would slay the Witch-King, bring down Barad-dur and destroy the One Ring in a spectacular 10 minute sequence of CG extravaganza!

LOL!

Well, to be fair, Gloin did participate to the Council of Elrond in the book!

He is also in the film but is never named. He is one of the dwarves in the council.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[KK 3,307]

Yeah, they'll fix that in the Super Special Edition for the 20th anniversary or something!

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Faleel 5,371]

One thing that would have been nice to see, though, had the Hobbit film(s) been made before LOTR, is some of the Dwarves coming to Bilbo's birthday (if I remember correctly, a few of them did come in the book, though they were not named).

I know one of the early drafts had Dwarves coming.

Yeah, they'll fix that in the Super Special Edition for the 20th anniversary or something!

Perhaps using the deleted Rivendell dinner scene!

[Incanus 5,722]

One thing that would have been nice to see, though, had the Hobbit film(s) been made before LOTR, is some of the Dwarves coming to Bilbo's birthday (if I remember correctly, a few of them did come in the book, though they were not named).

The dwarves that helped with Bilbo's big birthday were not those of Thorin's company but hired help, either all the way from Erebor or more likely from the Blue Mountains. I assume Bilbo was held in honour by the dwarves after his journey and thus they had agreed to help him with his party business. And again Dale and Erebor had a flourishing toymarket and LotR mentions how among the gifts there were toys of dwarven make (from Erebor).

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Incanus 5,722]

LotR page 25: "There were toys the like of which they had never seen before, all beautiful and some obviously magical. Many of them had indeed been ordered a year before, and had come all the way from the Mountain and from Dale, and were of dwarf-make."

There are three dwarves with who Bilbo departs later and their names are never mentioned. It would be odd if they were the old members of Thorin's company and Tolkien would not name them in this first chapter.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Faleel 5,371]

And page number 24!

..Dwarves with long beards and dark hoods. a few of them remained at Bag End.

[Incanus 5,722]

And page number 24!

..Dwarves with long beards and dark hoods. a few of them remained at Bag End.

I know Tolkien writes from the perspective of the neighbourhood that gawks at the party preparations but would it be likely he would later omit to mention any of Bilbo's old companions by name if they were present.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Incanus 5,722]

..Dwarves with long beards and dark hoods. a few of them remained at Bag End.

Nazgûl in disguise!

Another clever ruse! Thorin's ghost will have his vengeance!

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[KK 3,307]

..Dwarves with long beards and dark hoods. a few of them remained at Bag End.

Nazgûl in disguise!

So Thorin became a wraith? That explains the Thorin vs. Azog theme! Shore clearly has a much deeper understanding of Tolkien than we do!

[Faleel 5,371]

Lofar, Nar, Anar, and Hannar were the Dwarves names in the early drafts

[Incanus 5,722]

Lofar, Nar, Anar, and Hannar were the Dwarves names in the early drafts

I guess in a book so full of names Tolkien eventually opted to leave them unnamed as they really are quite a small part of the scene for the opening of the story. Interestingly Tolkien took the names from Elder Edda just like the dwarf names in the Hobbit.

[Faleel 5,371]

Nar became the name of the Dwarf with Thror before he dies right?

[Jay 37,398]

But honestly, when you have a scene like that, you really have no choice but to employ the Fellowship theme.

No choice? Come on! You always have a choice! You have the Woodland Realm theme and the Heroics of Aragorn theme at your disposal! The fellowship won't be formed until 60 years later!

Exactly.

[Incanus 5,722]

Nar became the name of the Dwarf with Thror before he dies right?

Yup. The one who takes the message to the dwarves from Azog which kindles that war of dwarves and orcs.

[Jay 37,398]

If the LotR films were made today, we would see pictures of Thorin in Bag End, Gandalf would hear Smaug's voice as he picks up the map, Frodo would find Azog's hook hand on Weathertop, we would see at least five of the dwarves from The Hobbit in the Council of Elrond, Tauriel would become a member of the Fellowship and fall in love with Gimli, Bard would join the Siege of Gondor with an army from Dale and Legolas would slay the Witch-King, bring down Barad-dur and destroy the One Ring in a spectacular 10 minute sequence of CG extravaganza!

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

But honestly, when you have a scene like that, you really have no choice but to employ the Fellowship theme.

No choice? Come on! You always have a choice! You have the Woodland Realm theme and the Heroics of Aragorn theme at your disposal! The fellowship won't be formed until 60 years later!

Exactly.

The Fellowship theme is supposed to be heard first in The Fellowship of the Ring over Sam's realisation of being further from home than ever before. No sooner. It has no business being in The Hobbit!

(unless you're watching the FotR EE - I'll allow the theme being played over the film's title card)

[gkgyver 1,646]

What are you all talking about? There are tons of Hobbit references in Fellowship, even if you consider it the first of the six films.

Riddles in the Dark in the prologue, the map, Bilbo's constantly referencing his adventures in Bag End, Frodo telling Gandalf he's been labeled "disturber of peace", then again Riddles in the Dark when Gandalf explains the Ring to Frodo, the Trollshaw, Bilbo speaking about Mirkwood and Lake-Town and The Lonely Mountain, his book with drawings from the Hobbit, then Mithril in Rivendell, again the reference in Moria, when Gandalf says Bilbo owned a Mithril shirt, even mentioning Thorin's name. Not to mention Sam and Frodo often remembering what Bilbo said or did.

I wish you people would just watch Fellowship (EE) after having watched BOTFA; the simple truth is that the Hobbit makes Fellowship a better film. Legolas being told about Aragorn makes perfect sense in context of the Council of Elrond.

The problem is that, beyond some bad CGI and horrible music edits, you people give Jackson way too little credit for the storytelling in this sextology. I'm beginning to wonder if the concept and structure of the Hobbit, especially BOTFA, is just going over some people's heads, who continue to bury themselves in Tolkien details instead of separating books and films, and realizing the people making these films know their Tolkien just as well, and make decisions for a reason.

If watched in order (along with not making sense) the LOTR references become Hobbit references!

If the LotR films were made today, we would see pictures of Thorin in Bag End, Gandalf would hear Smaug's voice as he picks up the map, Frodo would find Azog's hook hand on Weathertop, we would see at least five of the dwarves from The Hobbit in the Council of Elrond, Tauriel would become a member of the Fellowship and fall in love with Gimli, Bard would join the Siege of Gondor with an army from Dale and Legolas would slay the Witch-King, bring down Barad-dur and destroy the One Ring in a spectacular 10 minute sequence of CG extravaganza!

If the same LotR films were made today, JWfan would be buzzing with people criticizing oversimplifying the story, particularly the first half of Fellowship, and totally screwing up the structure of the books.

Oh wow I didn't think people would actually have a problem with it.

I can see people not liking the scene, but given the scene exists the theme is perfect for it. Nice hint of the theme. Especially since you went on about how much you like it building for Gandalf and Aragorn before the full statement. It's nice it gets a less formed one for Legolas as he goes on his path to joining it.

The fact people have a problem with it seems like BS to, exactly what I meant when I say some accept that the seduction of the ring can play when they're strolling through woods but not similar things The Hobbit (or more appropriate things like the fellowship theme is there).

I don't think Shore had much choice with the Fellowship theme. PJ must have demanded it as the final underlining gesture to hammer home the connection to LotR in that scene. I don't mind it too much but it is a tad glaring addition during the denouement of the film.

It's not a grand statement of it that's out of place...

Especially as the film draws to a close an leads into FOTR, it's a nice tie. If it played when Gloin mentioned Gimli in the middle of DOS, or for Legolas in DOS, I could see the frustration. One of the main points of the end of BOTFA is to lead into FOTR.

Oh, don't mention this!

Every referencing or foreshadowing LotR in these films is fan service, mental masturbation, and general Peter Jackson stupidity. It cannot be any other way. That would mean differences between the vision of the director and that of moviegoers. PJ has to read fans' minds. Always. And shouldn't dare to steer away from it.

[KK 3,307]

Ah my dear gkygyver. As much as I can admire your output, it's posts like these that reveal your fanboy-ish nature with these films, and makes that name hard to shake off.

I think Incanus put it best, it's like talking to a brick wall!

And sure, LOTR would have been nitpicked to death if the same films were released today (they still are nitpicked quite often here, yourself being among the nitpickers!), but people would still appreciate them a lot more than the Hobbit films in general. Because regardless of their flaws, there's a genuine sense of craft behind those films, all the way from writing, to production values, to adapting the source material (though this gets the least points). They are still very good films from an objective point of view. The Hobbit films just aren't.

[Faleel 5,371]

I was just thinking could the unknown theme from The Darkest Hour and Sons of Durin be a theme for the Giant Moles that were mentioned at one point?

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[MedigoScan 325]

The Hobbit movies arent bad either (is what I say)

they just could have been better

[Incanus 5,722]

No no no the wall doesn't listen to sense! You can't reason with it! It won't budge from its point of view whereas we are entirely open to new views! We are sensible folk!

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[MedigoScan 325]

You had one job, Legolas

One job

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

No no no the wall doesn't listen to sense! You can't reason with it! It won't budge from its point of view whereas we are entirely open to new views! We are sensible folk!

Search your feelings you know it to be true!

[gkgyver 1,646]

Isn't it more like talking to someone who disagrees with your opinions?

Some people are simply ignoring the director's/writers' documented intentions in order to be able to construct criticism or to keep the prejudiced verdict on the film. That's not an opinion, that's childish.