Sharkissimo 1,973 Posted August 15, 2014 Share Posted August 15, 2014 Thought this would be a good idea of for a thread. Basically, the idea is for fans of a particular cue, score, chord or even 'sound' to ask if there's something similar in the classical tradition. It doesn't have to be John Williams. I'll start with one of my favourite Williams themes - The Ark of the Covenant from RAIDERS OF THE LOST ARK. The Miracle Of The Ark by John Williams on Grooveshark Key features: Planing minor chords, block voicing, tritone relationships, half cadence to conclude the B section etc. indy4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dixon Hill 4,234 Posted August 15, 2014 Share Posted August 15, 2014 Not classical, but very closely related. Jacob's theme. You'll also find a similar sort of thing throughout Debussy's Le Martyre de saint Sébastien. Sharkissimo 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tedfud 38 Posted August 15, 2014 Share Posted August 15, 2014 This has always struck me as very like Herrmann, Williams, Goldsmith etc...more majors than minors. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdyFe01NVU0top stuffalso good old nicolaj Andreyevich Rimsky-Korsakov was partial to the old root movement by 3rds back in 1881https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bu4ssxtBj5Yt Dixon Hill and Sharkissimo 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharkissimo 1,973 Posted August 16, 2014 Author Share Posted August 16, 2014 You'll also find a similar sort of thing throughout Debussy's Le Martyre de saint Sébastien. Thanks for that. Exactly what I was looking for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marian Schedenig 8,208 Posted August 16, 2014 Share Posted August 16, 2014 Bits of this perhaps, in the beginning? Or of course: Or (though a film score), the opening of this: Sharkissimo 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hlao-roo 389 Posted August 16, 2014 Share Posted August 16, 2014 What is (are) the classical antecedent(s) for the following cue? The Fire Dragon by Jerry Goldsmith on Grooveshark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post karelm 2,914 Posted August 17, 2014 Popular Post Share Posted August 17, 2014 I also think you'll find some similar Raiders Map Room music in Wagner and Bernard Herrmann.For example at 6:40, the grail theme from Parsifal: and the Fog from 7th Voyage of Sinbad/Herrmann: these are full of mythological motifs and triadic/mysterioso/religioso that you have in Map Room.=============================================================What is (are) the classical antecedent(s) for the following cue?The Fire Dragon by Jerry Goldsmith on GroovesharkFor Goldsmith "Fire Dragon" stylistic similarities, how about the last two minutes of Honegger's Pacific 231:https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=H-NcYI0SW0U#t=297Also Bartok's Miraculous Mandarin is full of this sort of stuff (again check out the last 2 minutes or so but all of it is great).https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-PeJuUoIfeM&feature=player_detailpage#t=1429Prokofiev too! (just check out that opening...) Hlao-roo, publicist and Sharkissimo 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marian Schedenig 8,208 Posted August 17, 2014 Share Posted August 17, 2014 For example at 6:40, the grail theme from Parsifal: The theme itself wasn't actually composed by Wagner though. Dixon Hill 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dixon Hill 4,234 Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 There's a similar figure all over Mahler 2 as well. And Goldsmith's Star Trek V. And Hans' The Prince Of Egypt. I have a grand unifying theory about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharkissimo 1,973 Posted August 18, 2014 Author Share Posted August 18, 2014 Is it about perfect fifths and the divine? Dixon Hill 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dixon Hill 4,234 Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 Also major 7ths. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hlao-roo 389 Posted September 18, 2014 Share Posted September 18, 2014 What is (are) the classical antecedent(s) of the following cue? Goldenthal: Toccata & Dreamscapes by Dirk Brosse; London Symphony Orchestra on Grooveshark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharkissimo 1,973 Posted September 18, 2014 Author Share Posted September 18, 2014 Nice one O Red God/Alan.I'll have to give it some thought... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hlao-roo 389 Posted September 21, 2014 Share Posted September 21, 2014 Still thinking? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gnome in Plaid 219 Posted September 21, 2014 Share Posted September 21, 2014 This one might be a little out of the wheelhouse for this thread, but if you use a broader definition of "classical" I'd love to know what Shore's western influences were on this cue. I know his history with Bachir Attar, but I've always wondered about his other influences for The Cell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharkissimo 1,973 Posted September 22, 2014 Author Share Posted September 22, 2014 What is (are) the classical antecedent(s) of the following cue? Goldenthal: Toccata & Dreamscapes by Dirk Brosse; London Symphony Orchestra on Grooveshark I asked Marcus Paus, who has an extensive knowledge of 20th century concert music that puts mine to shame. Here's his post: Good question! That's such an interesting cue; I remember being impressed by its level of ambition back when the album was released.It's certainly a conglomerate of so many different types of late 20th Century techniques. I hear a lot of Corigliano, a bit of Penderecki, some Rouse in the percussion writing as well as the propulsive string writing, and certainly also more "film musical" fare (mostly a matter of musical rhetoric)... But it would be really hard to pinpoint exactly which pieces!For Corigliano, I suspect perhaps something from "Three Hallucinations" (especially the film version of the psychedelic ritual scene). For Rouse, maybe "Passion Wheels" or "Gorgon"?I'll have to contemplate a little more! You're probably familiar with Penderecki and Corigliano, but Christopher Rouse is less well known. He's younger than Corgilano but older than Goldenthal - and Elliot would have been familiar with both composers as a student in the Manhattan School of Music in the late 70s. Here's Gorgon. Unfortunately Passion Wheels isn't on Youtube or Grooveshark. I'll also add that Goldenthal's use of brass mutes (especially jazz mutes) as quasi-electronic filters in this piece (and his early concert works), belongs to a tradition that goes back to John Cage, Luciano Berio and Jacob Druckman - who were exploring the relationship between electronic synthesis and acoustic instruments. Also, Goldenthal is a big admirer of Toru Takemitsu - I remember him saying that in an interview. That said, the major difference between the two is Takemitsu's music is generally introverted while Goldenthal's is more extroverted, although that's a simplification. I'll add - that jazzy dotted rhythm figure for the muted trumpets at 1:13 in Toccata and Dreamscapes - reminds me of Karl Birger-Blomdahl's space (acid dropping) opera Aniara (1959). Very underrated composer.... which also reminds me of Jerry Fielding's score for THE MECHANIC (1974). Strong Druckman influence here.Shit. How could I forget Xenakis? And of a bit of Corigliano, Don't tell me you don't hear a bit of ALIEN 3 in parts. <iframe width="480" height="360" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/KskXS9euKQY?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharkissimo 1,973 Posted October 13, 2014 Author Share Posted October 13, 2014 Anyone know the classical precursors for this lovely EG cue? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dixon Hill 4,234 Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 Seems pretty Wagnerian in all but the language used.Glad to see this thread reappear. I'll add - that jazzy dotted rhythm figure for the muted trumpets at 1:13 in Toccata and Dreamscapes - reminds me of Karl Birger-Blomdahl's space (acid dropping) opera Aniara (1959). Very underrated composer.Holy crap, I haven't heard this in years. Incidentally, that was at a concert after dropping acid. Fucking legendary stuff, this is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharkissimo 1,973 Posted October 13, 2014 Author Share Posted October 13, 2014 Seems pretty Wagnerian in all but the language used.You mean that harmonic language? That's what I'm after. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dixon Hill 4,234 Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 Well that's hard to say since there's nothing especially distinctive about it. Not meaning that it's uninteresting or anything, but just that it fits in with the general idiom of melodic post-silver age film music - Horner (I most associate that tritone movement at 0:38 with him), Silvestri, Broughton, etc. (depending on how you classify the "ages" of film music). Where does that come from? Star Wars' harmony is probably a huge source, and the other silver/golden age scores with classic themes, but, you know, modernized/simplified/somewhat more functional... some pop influence, definitely. That's always a part of Goldenthal's thematic writing, to my ears. And most 90s scores. I think that was when pop really seeped into film music.1:00 - 1:30 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nm66O75ax_w1111Grasping at straws here, though. What do you hear in this that sets it apart from quintessential 90s melodicism? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romão 2,274 Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 Probably an obvious one. I've heard a lot of people mentioning the influence of Carmina Burana on Conan, The Barbarian, but I guess people tend to do that with any score piece featuring this sort of choir. But they tend to mention the influence of O Fortuna (that's what most people associate Carmina Burana anyway), when in fact it is the second track of this work that is a clear influence on Riders of Doom.Specially starting at the 2:13 mark: Compare with, specially at the 00:34 mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedBard 71 Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 Anyone know the classical precursors for this lovely EG cue? Ah, yes. Sphere. An instance where the music outperforms the film itself.Anyway, sounds like Goldenthal was borrowing Debussy's pet technique of background string ostinatos (first movement of La Mer) and Saint-Saens impressionistic coloring choices (for instrumentation).That, and some Wagnerian brass overlays coupled with some harmonic doubling in the strings to convey an almost child-like sense of wonder and size of the ocean....I don't know. I'm just far more versed in 19th century music than 20th century. That's just me. Maybe Goldenthal being a student of Copland and Corigliano had an influence on him.Who knows? I sure don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharkissimo 1,973 Posted October 14, 2014 Author Share Posted October 14, 2014 Well that's hard to say since there's nothing especially distinctive about it. Not meaning that it's uninteresting or anything, but just that it fits in with the general idiom of melodic post-silver age film music - Horner (I most associate that tritone movement at 0:38 with him), Silvestri, Broughton, etc. (depending on how you classify the "ages" of film music). Where does that come from? Star Wars' harmony is probably a huge source, and the other silver/golden age scores with classic themes, but, you know, modernized/simplified/somewhat more functional... some pop influence, definitely. That's always a part of Goldenthal's thematic writing, to my ears. And most 90s scores. I think that was when pop really seeped into film music. 1:00 - 1:30 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nm66O75ax_w1111 Grasping at straws here, though. What do you hear in this that sets it apart from quintessential 90s melodicism? For some reason, harmonically this cue reminds me of a lot of John Barry - the only bit that doesn't is what you mentioned - the tritone thing (Bm - F) that sounds like 90s sci-fi a la James Newton Horner. The closest Barry cue I can think of is his theme for THE DAY OF THE LOCUST (1974) - the only clip of it on the web I can find is from a scene in the film. I think it's that darkly romantic Cm > Bbm (in 'The Gift' - C#m > Bm) - something about the way it outlines the raised 6th in the melody. In the EG cue the A# on the C#m is unexpected, we're no longer in A major. I also find the G# (Major 7th) incredibly powerful, the one right before the plunge to C#m at 0:27, it's like an anticipation. Maybe Frank Lehman's use of Neo-Riemannian Theory is more appropriate - a series of transformations rather than a chord progression. If so... The Gift: (A) L (C#m) L (A) L (C#m) T10 (Bm) T6P (F) PLP (C#m/E > C#m) Or maybe not... Edit: BTW your second video is showing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dixon Hill 4,234 Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 Ah sorry, it was a cue from Silvestri's The Abyss. Not sure why it didn't work.I like that way of looking at it though. At least makes for more interesting discussion than just calling it a standard progression. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharkissimo 1,973 Posted October 15, 2014 Author Share Posted October 15, 2014 As an interesting note, the handwritten score has the direction 'Transparent a la Massenet'..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dixon Hill 4,234 Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 Handwritten score, you say? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharkissimo 1,973 Posted October 22, 2014 Author Share Posted October 22, 2014 What about these lyrical, expressionist string adagios in Alex North's writing. They seem to be fourth species counterpoint, either atonal or highly chromatic. Especially from the 2 minute mark onwards, but I also love the quasi-religious passage at the beginning. Love that resolution to the CMaj7 chord at 1:15 - beautiful but haunting. Any concert works that sound like this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharkissimo 1,973 Posted October 22, 2014 Author Share Posted October 22, 2014 Bump. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dixon Hill 4,234 Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 Kind of reminds me of this.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=quYElrvErkE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muad'Dib 1,802 Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 North is quite unique, if not one of the most unique composers in film scoring history. While he has some clear influences, the end result is very much his own. It's quite astonishing really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharkissimo 1,973 Posted October 24, 2014 Author Share Posted October 24, 2014 Kind of reminds me of this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=quYElrvErkE Wonderful piece, is that serial? For more examples of the kind of counterpoint I'm getting at: 2:33-2:48 Don't Let Him by Goldsmith, Jerry on Grooveshark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dixon Hill 4,234 Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 Kind of reminds me of this.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=quYElrvErkEWonderful piece, is that serial?Essentially. Good read: http://www.laphil.com/philpedia/music/inscape-aaron-coplandAnd another: http://digital.library.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metadc33147/m2/1/high_res_d/thesis.pdfIt also brings to mind the fugue from this - densely chromatic without being serial.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bkwdJJPT97Q Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gnome in Plaid 219 Posted November 6, 2014 Share Posted November 6, 2014 I have no idea what's going on with the choir from roughly 3:14-3:42 of "The Dead Marshes," but I love it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharkissimo 1,973 Posted November 8, 2014 Author Share Posted November 8, 2014 It's an aleatoric mix of choral effects such as whispering, chanting and sprechstimme (between singing and speaking - a sort of moaning - look it up). You can it hear it all over Jerry's OMEN trilogy, and in parts of Johnny's TOD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gnome in Plaid 219 Posted November 9, 2014 Share Posted November 9, 2014 It's an aleatoric mix of choral effects such as whispering, chanting and sprechstimme (between singing and speaking - a sort of moaning - look it up). You can it hear it all over Jerry's OMEN trilogy, and in parts of Johnny's TOD.That's a really cool piece. I love Lutoslawski, but somehow I'd never heard this one before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muad'Dib 1,802 Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 How about this one? I hear some Saint-Saens in there but I'm not sure, what else? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muad'Dib 1,802 Posted March 6, 2015 Share Posted March 6, 2015 Ok then, how about this one? Which could be the classical precendent of this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharkissimo 1,973 Posted March 6, 2015 Author Share Posted March 6, 2015 I hear more of a jazz influence there, TBH. Not specifically in the orchestration but more the sense of harmony and rhythm. Bruns was a big jazzhead, so look to Duke Ellington, the Miles Davis/Gil Evans collaborations, Stan Kenton, and masters of exotica like Henry Mancini, John Barry. and Les Baxter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muad'Dib 1,802 Posted March 7, 2015 Share Posted March 7, 2015 Cool, thanks Sharky! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLUMENKOHL 1,068 Posted March 14, 2015 Share Posted March 14, 2015 This thread would be more fun if we followed a DNA chain back through the same and eventually different composers, instead of making leaps from "modern" to "classical."So i.e. take a John Williams idea, and trace it back through his career, then the nearest composers, and go back and back! A family tree if you will! For example: 2:48-2:55 of Hedwig's Theme sounds incredibly similar to 5:40-5:46 of Finale & End Credits from The Last Crusade! The next earliest iteration of this basic idea (let's call it THE JOHN WILLIAMS BRIDGE) I can think of is in the Jane Eyre Theme around 2:00 in on piano. The rolling, ornamented, romantic...bridgey music. If I had to go looking for a classical root, I'd probably look at the Russians...Tchaikovsky maybe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharkissimo 1,973 Posted March 14, 2015 Author Share Posted March 14, 2015 That would be incredibly time consuming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharkissimo 1,973 Posted April 18, 2015 Author Share Posted April 18, 2015 Anyone know what composers wrote in this kind of half-quartal/half-tertian idiom? I dunno, but they sound kind of rustic to my ears. It's a kind of writing that resonates with me. Hlao-roo 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hlao-roo 389 Posted April 18, 2015 Share Posted April 18, 2015 Anyone know what composers wrote in this kind of half-quartal/half-tertian idiom? I dunno, but they sound kind of rustic to my ears. It's a kind of writing that resonates with me. Same here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karelm 2,914 Posted April 18, 2015 Share Posted April 18, 2015 Damn, that's crazy that once film music sounded like that. You do hear some Varese in the Straw Dogs: and Copland in the Watership Down (like around 2:00). Basically, I think you are hearing alot of quasi European influences. Copland being French/Stravinsky/Boulanger protege mixed with Americana and Varese being French/American. Sharkissimo 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharkissimo 1,973 Posted April 18, 2015 Author Share Posted April 18, 2015 Damn, that's crazy that once film music sounded like that. You do hear some Varese in the Straw Dogs: and Copland in the Watership Down (like around 2:00). Basically, I think you are hearing alot of quasi European influences. Copland being French/Stravinsky/Boulanger protege mixed with Americana and Varese being French/American. Thanks for that. I think you're right, it's a kind of cross-pollination of American and European aesthetics. You could probably even find Ives in some of the cues I posted. I heard some of Kurt Weill's 1st Symphony on the radio today, so I decided to check out his first two symphonies later, and they immediately reminded me of STRAW DOGS, WATERSHIP DOWN, Rosenman etc. Also, I think Fielding stated in an interview that he was influenced by Stravinsky's History of a Soldier, so there's that too. The Stravinsky-Weill link is the Stravinsky piece greatly influence Weill when he saw it Frankfurt, and it helped inform his objective but sincere approach to drama at the time. Weill's mentor Busoni is also worth looking at too - he employed a fair bit of quartal harmony in his later works. Another similar wind chorale I've found is Tippet's Praeludium for brass, bells and percussion. I've heard someone compare STRAW DOGS to Alun Hoddinott, although I'm not familiar with his work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dixon Hill 4,234 Posted April 18, 2015 Share Posted April 18, 2015 Love that Tippett piece.This sort of language is in a way what's at the core of my own music. I feel like there is one seminal piece that I heard when I was really young that represents it well, but I can't recall what it was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karelm 2,914 Posted April 18, 2015 Share Posted April 18, 2015 I am very fond of Hoddinott. There is definitely a french flavor in his music ala Dutilleux. Question - what do you think of Boulez? (not as a person but as a composer).Grey, I love Tippett too - there was an oratorio I loved listening too back in college but can't find it. The Mask of time. I think it was about a black hole, it's affect on time, and a father daughter thing. Seriously, I have been looking for that since forever and no luck. I am surprised he isn't more popular but he too reminds me of Hoddinott. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dixon Hill 4,234 Posted April 18, 2015 Share Posted April 18, 2015 Oh wait, duh! This is it. Especially the chorale that ends it. Sounded especially rich on vinyl. And of course "those chords"... I'm a lover of most French composers, especially Dutilleux. Boulez's output, when it stays in that same sensual French neighborhood, is appealing to me as well. I haven't heard of that Tippett piece but it does sound interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharkissimo 1,973 Posted April 18, 2015 Author Share Posted April 18, 2015 I am very fond of Hoddinott. There is definitely a french flavor in his music ala Dutilleux. Great to hear. I'm a Dutilleux fan as well. What Hoddoinott pieces would you recommend to listen to first? Question - what do you think of Boulez? (not as a person but as a composer). Like TGP I like his more sensual works. Cummings ist der dichter is probably my favourite. Grey, I love Tippett too - there was an oratorio I loved listening too back in college but can't find it. The Mask of time. I think it was about a black hole, it's affect on time, and a father daughter thing. Seriously, I have been looking for that since forever and no luck. I am surprised he isn't more popular but he too reminds me of Hoddinott. INTERSTELLARish much? Oh wait, duh! This is it. Especially the chorale that ends it. Sounded especially rich on vinyl. It says 'video not available.' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karelm 2,914 Posted April 18, 2015 Share Posted April 18, 2015 I am very fond of Hoddinott. There is definitely a french flavor in his music ala Dutilleux.Great to hear. I'm a Dutilleux fan as well. What Hoddoinott pieces would you recommend to listen to first?Question - what do you think of Boulez? (not as a person but as a composer). Like TGP I like his more sensual works. Cummings ist der dichter is probably my favourite. Grey, I love Tippett too - there was an oratorio I loved listening too back in college but can't find it. The Mask of time. I think it was about a black hole, it's affect on time, and a father daughter thing. Seriously, I have been looking for that since forever and no luck. I am surprised he isn't more popular but he too reminds me of Hoddinott.INTERSTELLARish much? Oh wait, duh! This is it. Especially the chorale that ends it. Sounded especially rich on vinyl. It says 'video not available.' I think Hoddinott's Chandos CD is an excellent place to start. You'll hear some French/English style...it is quite beautiful, elegant, enigmatic, and dramatic. This is the link: https://www.chandos.net/Details06.asp?CNumber=CHAN%208762If you like that, you'll like the late John McCabe, and the late Arthur Butterworth (Vaughan Williams mixed with Sibelius). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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