about John Williams' "borrowings"

[DU Lou 1]

many critics always talks about how certain JW themes sound like some other composer or at least influenced by some other composer. Star Wars, Jaws, E.T. etc

So my question is... where did JFK, Sound the Bells, Seven Years in Tibet (just off the top of my head and to just name a few of course) come from??

Where are those imfluences???

[jsawruk 0]

Just because a composer "borrows" or "suggests", or even outright "quotes" material from other composers (which most composers do mind you!), does not mean he does it all the time. Also, the composer may do it subconsciously and not notice he's doing it.

Then there is style. JW has a style, which itself has influences from other composers. Since everything a composer writes is in his style, then everything will have some influence from somewhere else. The ones you mentioned are no exception. For example, I think Seven Years in Tibet still sounds like 19th century/early 20th century music. The melody, however, does not sound like any other melody I know. That does not, however, mean it lacks influence.

Critics are over-critical. If they would open their eyes, they would see that all composers do these things. Stravinsky did it quite a bit, for example.

Fans, however, hold JW in too high a regard and think "he could possibly never do such a thing".

The truth, as usual, lies in the middle. JW does borrow etc., and it's not a big deal. It really isn't.

[Frosty 0]

Very well put.

We would have to mention Bach's borrowing, Mozart's, Haydn's, Beethoven's etc., etc.

All composers have been influenced.

You cannot create in a vacuum.

[Elmo Lewis 6]

You are right, jsawruk, but unfortunately that will not remove John Williams' label of "copyist" and "creator of the same old sound". I do like direct quotations (The Patriot, Empire of the Sun, Home Alone they quote with more or less precission classical music), and welcome them in any shape.

[Guest]

Personally, I think when Williams quotes something, he keeps the same melody, but presents it in his own style, which usually makes the quote that much better. For instance, "When You Wish Upon a Star" is brilliant in the Special Edition ending of CE3K. Nearly moves me to tears everytime. I nearly always whistle along with the piccolo solo. If you're listening to it right before you go to bed, it's like a lullaby with the way it puts you to sleep (it's not boring by any means!).

Williams' quoting of the Bernstein works in "For New York" are far superior, in my opinion, to Bernstein's original compositions for those themes.

I don't necessarily hold Horner's constant quoting of the Gayane Ballet adagio very highly. That's mainly due to the frequency and the variation of notes that Horner usually uses. The original is better from the bar and measure perspective than Horner's interpretations.

Another suggestion I found the other day was in the score to The Black Hole. In the track "Start the Countdown", the beginning nearly quotes the opening of Schubert's 8th (aka the Unfinished) Symphony. It took me a good half-hour to figure out they weren't the same notes. But the style of both pieces is identical. Low-pitched cello solo playing a slow, brooding melody. At first, I almost thought "Start the Countdown" was Schubert's 8th (I got excited because that would mean I'd get to hear some "image-scrubbing" music). Then the blaster beam broke in with some more of the orchestra and I realized it was just a trick by Barry.

[charlesk 0]

I don't care about critics. They can say want they want. Mozart was called a copycat of Haydn, just like early Beethoven. Brahms was called a copycat of Beethoven. Mahler of Wagner. Shostakovich of Mahler....

The point is that critics die to be forgotten along with their useless critics, while creators live forever in their creations. Long live John Williams.

CharlesK

[Magnus 0]

frankly I don't give a damn if JW copys from other composers works as long as it sounds good in the movie, which he obviously has a terrific feeling for. Tchaikovsky (was it not?) in Home Alone was great and his pizzicato thing from some piece (or symphony) in Temple of Doom (when Indy and Willie have this argument) was a thing of beauty.

The Stormtroopers theme in Star Wars have great similarity to a part from Gustav Holst's Mars in the Planet's suite, and who is complaining about that?

[Guest]

I'm not really sure anything in ANH sounded that much like The Planets. If it did, it wasn't for very long. I would probably have to say that Princess Leia's theme is leaning towards Grieg's Peer Gynt, though.

[Guest]

On contrary, there are two moments that sounds like Holst's The Planet in ANH. I will post the music excerpts later.

[King Mark 3,631]

.  For instance, "When You Wish Upon a Star" is brilliant in the Special Edition ending of CE3K.

i agree.

K.M.

[NeejaHalycon 0]

.  For instance, "When You Wish Upon a Star" is brilliant in the Special Edition ending of CE3K.

i agree.

K.M.

Amen on that! I always whistle along!

[charlesk 0]

The development that Williams does with "When you wish upon a Star" is an homage to this little, simple song. When a composer takes a material of somebody else and makes such honorable rendition, it cannot be critizised.

If I was the composer of "When you wish upon a Star", I would be more than proud with Williams "borrowing", I would pay Williams to do it, in fact.

[Falstaft 2,133]

I think few of us will deny that Williams is heavily influenced by the composers that preceeded him, and some that are writing alongside him. This is not JW being derivative or plagiaristic -- any composer worth his salt is aware of the tradition that is layed out before him or her and is capable of incorporating the styles and innovations of musical history into their works in original ways.

The little but clear influences and homages JW to other composers inserts into his works always make me smile. Sometimes they are exaggerated. A.I. was a score very warmly recieved by the JW community for its supposed suffusion with strains of the American Minimalist movement, but I think that there are no direct borrowings at all, besides a cute, but short tip-off to Phil-Glassian arpeggios and a nod to John Adam's percussive, highly expressive chord-progressions, at least in his Short Ride/Harmonielehre mode. But both of these examples (the beginning of Abandoned in the Woods, and the astonishing Mecha World respectively) are undeniably "Williamsesque" while at the same time extremely new sounding. A.I. is a fascinating score, one of my top 5, full of more modern influences than I can name, but the important thing is that JW makes each his own. Compare the opening to Aliens to the magnificent Cybertronics and then to the original Khachiturian, and you'll see how much more talented JW is, and how much more the thief Horner is (not that I don't love Horn-dog). In the end, though, I simply believe A.I. is just about as damn powerful a score (or composition) that anyone is capable of writing, regardless of his skillful nods to whoever, Glass of Gorecki. In some ways, many ways, I think he exceeds them.

I think the real problem, that people strangely pay far less attention, is Williams recent tendency to plagiarize -himself- !! Anderton's Great Escape is a fine action setpiece that really gets my blood pumping, but seriously now, how many more times do we have to hear the Ludlow's Demise theme (which itself has other precedents in JW's work). I'm willing to grant that each time it sounds different, and there is a certain satisfaction I feel when I recognize a line from Far and Away in American Journey or whatever, but sometimes its just frustrating, because we -know- JW is still capable of writing great, original music in whatever style. I hear not only an agitated secondary theme from Across the Stars in CMIYC "Recollections," but Sabrina, and even his Cello Concerto. "Recollections" is still a great piece, and CMIYC still a fine score, but little things like that can still be troubling.

Even so, I shouldnt exaggerate the magnitude of Williams' self-plagiarism either; afterall, composers all have little harmonic, rhytmic or melodic ideas that kinda haunt them througout their works. The better you get to know the composer, the better you are at recognizing these recurring ideas, and, even grow to appreciate how they evolve through piece to piece.

[King Mark 3,631]

Some chord progressions might be the same from one theme to another,but that's the basic note structure that gives Williams themes their unique dramatic and emotionnal impact.

K.M.

[Guest]

I agree with Charlesk and Falstaft. This thing is not new. It's been going on for a long long long time now and is part of the flow. Haydn and Mozart (as Charles mentioned). No doubt someones mentors or favourite styles are going to influence their writing at a later date. We are influenced every second of our lvies by things which later pop up at a later date. It's natural. I see nothing wrong with it. Mike Oldfield even once said he's love to one day make an album comprised of all the favourite little gems of techinques he's admired by other composers. I even mentioned lately the similarity between Tchai's Russian Dance from the Nutcracker to Williams "Making the plane" frenzy in Home Alone. It's funny, but it never offends me (unlike many who get very wound up and stresed out about Zimmer paying homage to Mars and other classical pieces in Gladiator for some reason). On the contrary, i find it amusing and exciting how such things are done. I hear in it classical all the time too. It's a natural thing, as falstaft said. A for JW using similar structures in his music. I mean, listen to Mozart. He used certain structure or familiar endings which makes you right away know it's Mozart or Beethoven or whoever. One can be original to an extent. But it's not always possible to be totally original. And if your job is to be a film composer, then you will use what works, and what you know has worked in the past.

[Melange 446]

Mind you, THAT is something that REALLY makes me angry

I was logged in when i began typing the above post. But now i'm suddenly logged out when it's being posted. Will somebody PLEASE fix this bug. It's testing my (and others patience)

Please fix this or we'll all end up "Sanguis Bibimus....Corpus Edimus" etc. 8O

[Yoda Longbottom 0]

It's been happening to me also.

You must have been typing your previous post for more than five minutes. Typing, unlike pressing buttons someplace and so appearing to be active in the boards, appears to the system as inactivity and it thinks you're no longer in the forum so it automatically logs you off, only you are allowed to notice it when having posted (works like "refresh"). It is to avoid confusion that may be caused by users that don't log off and leave the site without logging off while others could falsely presuppose "you" are still in the forum, so it was set to 5 minutes as the limit after which you are automatically logged off even if you're still there, reading or typing or whatnot. But it's just my conception. It might be something else, though...

Roman.-)

[Guest]

But it's just my conception. It might be something else, though...

Roman.-)

did it take you more than 5 minutes to make this up?

K.M.