Tolkien Haters Anonymous

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

You know, i like that scene, but i would have used spells as (i think) they did one the book.

That scene wasn't in the book.

Anyway, i didnt know wizards in LOTR controlled the FORCE  :roll:

I think telekinesis is one of the most ancient "magic tricks".

And Marian, they do not have to possess the power to destroy armies in a whisper, but anyway being wizards on both sides it would be balanced.

Not really. Saruman the White was stronger than Gandalf the Grey. And he did use some of his magic, like his voice, or explosives (to the peoples of that time, that was magic). Gandalf the White on the other hand was stronger as Saruman the ex-White, and he did use some magic against him.

Plus Gandalf uses magic, e.g. light in Moria, his healing of Theoden, occasional fire (in the books).

Furthermore it depends on what you like. I dont find battling armies as entertaining as wizards entering the fray along with them.

I don't find battling armies that entertaining. It's the plot and the characters in it that makes them interesting.

Marian -

Looney Tunes (Jerry Goldsmith)

1-Thats scene is in the book, but it is obviously adapted to hell in the movie, in the book anyway it is not described very well and lasts a little i think. And they do not use the Force

2- Yeah, well but it was not in LOTR books (even mentioned)... Bavdmorda and Raziel arleady knew how to do that

3- The Fire of Orthanc may be crafetd by the magi but has nothing to do with magic (and i dont care what the people of their time thought....)

Wow the light in moria! That was amazing magic...

Anyway as you say Gandalf uses magic in the books, few of it but the matter is that PJ used even less! That pissed me a lot more. The Force thingy is an exception since the added it... But anyway, the voive of Saruman is not called a magic thing on the movies so if you dont read the books you dont know. I think PJ doesnt care for magic too...

I have one question. When i read TTT, i read that Aragon's Blade (anduril?) had expelled fire light. Is that true or it was a beautiful description of the blade in battle? I think i saw Aragotn in the TTT videogame holding a firesword. Anyway anduril does not appear (adaptedly odd) in the two first movies so... maybe we have a surprise in ROTK...

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

1-Thats scene is in the book, but it is obviously adapted to hell in the movie, in the book anyway it is not described very well and lasts a little i think. And they do not use the Force...

No such scene is in the book.

All what is said of Gandalf's inprisonment is:

They took me and set me alone on the pinnacle of Orthanc, in the place were Saruman was accustomed to watch the stars.

The fightscene between Gandalf and Saruman is entirely the work of the film makers.

Stefancos- wondering if Manuel has actually read LOTR.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

yes i read it this summer. The english one volume edition + appendix

Who has to reread that since the cartoon movie had also the fight (this time with magic)...

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

I don't remember reading anything of the sort, but I have not read the Appendices. Is it in there? If so, where?

- Marc, who thinks the fight is cool.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I don't remember it being in the appendices, were was it exactly, Manuel?

Stefancos- who hopes he can finish LOTR in time for the films release

[Marian Schedenig 8,200]

No, it isn't, but you should definitely read the appendices, and then The Silmarillion. Only then you will begin to understand LOTR.

I have one question. When i read TTT, i read that Aragon's Blade (anduril?) had expelled fire light. Is that true or it was a beautiful description of the blade in battle? I think i saw Aragotn in the TTT videogame holding a firesword. Anyway anduril does not appear (adaptedly odd) in the two first movies so... maybe we have a surprise in ROTK...

I don't remember reading anything like this, but if it's really in the book, it's only a description. The Balrogs had fire swords, but Narsil/Anduril didn't have any magic to it. It wasn't even from Gondolin if I'm not very wrong, so it didn't even have that blue shining when Orcs were close.

Marian - wondering why they made Sting glow blue in FOTR, but not Glamdring.

Aliens (James Horner)

[diskobolus 3]

Glamdring is gandalf's sword, yes?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Glamdring, the mate of Orcrist that lay now upon the breast of Thorin under the Lonely Mountain.

So, yes.

Stefancos- Tolkien geek.

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

Marian - wondering why they made Sting glow blue in FOTR, but not Glamdring.

Yes, and only in a few shots in FotR. As soon as those Orcs barge through the doors of Balin's Tomb it stops shining properly. Perhaps it was overheated and broke or something. Although that would contradict the glowing at Amon Hen. Oh well.

None of the swords of the Elves at Helm's Deep, or Aragorn's and Legolas' daggers ever glowed in the film. Hm.

- Marc, thinking this is picky.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

Well i did not say it was on the apendices (i only pointed that i read them). And yes stefan is right. There is not such scene. (which the question is why Tolkien did make one? he neither says that Gandalf surrendered....)

Anyway, is there any book, untold story or whatever that tolds the story of the 5 mages or in magic in general?

Breathmask, that is not picky. It is one thing PJ should have done regarding he is a LOTR geek.

[ChrisAfonso 186]

I think Tolkien did not know how to write about spells or something. Why ever create Wizards if they only act as wise men?

If you look at the two words, you may see where the former came from originally

Wizards ... Wise ...

Tolkien himself stated that his "wizards" aren't meant as the guys associated with the word nowadays, throwing spells around every corner.

[diskobolus 3]

I think Tolkien did not know how to write about spells or something. Why ever create Wizards if they only act as wise men?

If you look at the two words, you may see where the former came from originally

Wizards ... Wise ...

Do you know this as an etymological fact, or are you just guessing?

[Marian Schedenig 8,200]

Etymology: Middle English wysard, from wis, wys wise

Date: 15th century

(Source)

Interesting.

Marian - who didn't know it.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

Anyone knows if Tolkien made up the name Rohan from the horse coat color 'Roan'?

Anyway if he did not wanted them throwing spells from every corner, why made them with the spellcasting feature?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

OK, now you are getting ridiculous.

Ass! Fool! Thrice worthy and beloved Luke.

Stefancos-

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

Er.. excuse me?

Luke, who hasnt got Stefan's joke...

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

Anyway if he did not wanted them throwing spells from every corner, why made them with the spellcasting feature?

"Mercy! If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend the rest of my days answering you. What more do you want to know?"

- Marc, who thinks it doesn't really matter.

[Rogue_Leader 2]

I got a feeling a Lucas vs. Tolkien showdown is brewing in here!

[nja 0]

I got a feeling a Lucas vs. Tolkien showdown is brewing in here!

Interesting thought- Williams art survives in spite of Lucas; Tolkien's in spite of Shore.

nja- already dodging the shoes from Stefancos direction . . .

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Nah, the fact that you created this thread already made clear to me how misguided you are.

I pity you, but will waste no footwear on you.

Stefancos-

[nja 0]

Whaaa !? I created the thread because I like Tolkien.

nja- who thinks somebody from Middle Europe missed the whole point

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I very much understand that, but I agree with Neil that not liking Tolkien, or LOTR as a book or film does not mean that you are in fact a tasteless barbarian, not even worthy to be looked upon if you were to meet one of that sort in the street.

Different people have different tastes, we must accept that.

Stefancos- who gladly accepts that Marian and Neil listen to something as queer and outdated as classical music.

[nja 0]

I very much understand that, but I agree with Neil that not liking Tolkien, or LOTR as a book or film does not mean that you are in fact a tasteless barbarian, not even worthy to be looked upon if you were to meet one of that sort in the street.

Different people have different tastes, we must accept that.

Stefancos- who gladly accepts that Marian and Neil listen to something as queer and outdated as classical music.

Right . . . my tongue and cheek was intended in good fun and not ridicule to anyone. Of course everyone has a right to dislike whatever they want (even centuries of recognized musical tradition- but that's for a different thread). A guy like Neilo must have his reasons for not liking LOTR and I was honestly curious what they were.

'Nuff said.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

I got a feeling a Lucas vs. Tolkien showdown is brewing in here!

Not really sir. Did i mention SW or Lucas here? Well ok, only the Force

Anyway thanks to relate my mere existence to Syat Wars. Now the Force is with Me

Stefan . I still dont get you joke. Is that what Gandalf says to pippin after throwing the stone in the hole? I'm not getting it anyway...

Speaking of Wizards i found a funny thing on the novel 'Indiana Jones and the Dance of the Giants' :

We are in 1925. After reading the tale of Merlin in an unknown scroll and continuing his adventure, Indy is having a vision of an tall old man in grey robes with long white beard, in the center of Stonehenge in all its glory:

Indy peered at the man, trying to get a better view.

"Who are You?"

"You have already read my tale, false as you believe it to be. I have many names, and in not too many years i will be reborn again in lore as Gandalf. I like that name" The man turned slightly, and indy saw a pale, wrinkled face, a long nose and a hint of crinkled smile.

Cool isnt it?

That is the nearest to Lucas i will be... in this thread. See Rogue?

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

A guy like Neilo .

Who's Neilo?

Luke, Finding Neilo

[nja 0]

Our beloved moderator.

Truly he is the one.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

wow, your insight serves you well...

:roll:

[QMM 4]

QuestionMarkMan, everyone!

[audience cheers]

Thank you, I'll be here all week

Max- Where's Ocelot?

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

Well I Searched the Anduril thing and that is what i found:

THE LORD OF THE RINGS - PART III, THE TWO TOWERS

BOOK THREE

Chapter: Helm's Deep

" 'Guthwine!' Cried Eomer. 'Guthwine for the Mark!'

'Anduril!' Cried Aragorn. 'Anduril for the Dunedain!'

.... (one line)

Anduril rose and fell, gleaming with white fire. "

It can, of course refer to the gleaming that sword has near the orcs but i found this on the index:

INDEX IV Things

Anduril, Flame of the West

That nickname could mean something, couldn't it?

[Marian Schedenig 8,200]

Perhaps the sun was reflecting off it. Perhaps it had a particularly shiny surface that made it gleam extra-bright in sunlight. That could be a source for its name as well. I don't think it actually actively gleamed.

Marian - beginning to understand the whole "Do Balrogs have wings" thing.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Marian - beginning to understand the whole "Do Balrogs have wings" thing.

I don't, cause FOTR clearly states.

It stepped forward slowly on the bridge, and suddenly it drew itself up to great height, and its wings were spread from wall to wall;

Stupid hippie fanboys.

Stefancos-

[QMM 4]

You're a fanboy too steef

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

Even if it shines in a special manner, woulnt it be a thing to put in the movies?

Luke, who think Anduril is a flamesword

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

You're a fanboy too steef

Atleast I ain't no damn hippie.

Stefancos-

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

Even if it shines in a special manner, woulnt it be a thing to put in the movies?

I think it was probably omitted for two reasons.

1) The audience might get confused as to why the sword glows. If you're not familiar with Tolkien you won't know why it's glowing. It's never explicitely mentioned in the films that all Elven swords glow. Just that Sting glows when Orcs are close (of course this doesn't clear up the continuity flubs with Sting's glow being on/off).

2) Budgetory reasons. I imagine it's going to be pretty damn expensive to get every Elven sword or dagger to glow in every shot.

- Marc, who, now he thinks of it, would like to see what it would look like if all Elvish weapons really did glow in the films. Hmm...

Howard Shore - Shelob's Lair from The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King (OST)

[jw2285gd 0]

Stefancos

I totally agree with you....you are intelligent for looking that up, i never would have thought of that...but yes i think that it would have confused the people that did not read the book....

[Marian Schedenig 8,200]

If Anduril should be flaming, then why doesn't Elrond have stars dancing above his head?

It stepped forward slowly on the bridge, and suddenly it drew itself up to great height, and its wings were spread from wall to wall;

Now go back a few lines to where his wings are mentioned for the first time. I do tend to think they have wings as well, but it's not 100% clear.

Marian - who hopes PJ really does The Hobbit, because he wants to see Smaug.

[jw2285gd 0]

I agree with Marian....

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

What it was could not be seen: it was like a great shadow, in the middle of which was a form, of man-shape maybe, yet greater; and a power and a terror seemed to be in it and go before it.

It came to the edge of the fire and the light faded as if a cloud had bent over it. Then with a rush it leaped across the fissure. The flames roared up to greet it, and wreathed about it; and a black smoke swirled in the air. Its streaming mane kindled, and blazed behind it. In its right hand was a blade like a stabbing tongue of fire; in its left hand it held a whip of many thongs.

(...)

The Balrog reached the bridge. Gandalf stood in the middle of the span, leaning on the staff in his left hand, but in his other hand, Glamdring gleamed, cold and white. His enemy halted again, facing him, and the shadow about it reached out like two vast wings. It raised the whip, and the thongs whined and cracked. Fire came from its nostrils.

(...)

The Balrog made no answer. The fire in it seemed to die, but the darkness grew. It stepped forward slowly on to the bridge, and suddenly it drew itself up to a great height, and its wings were spread from wall to wall.

The whole point of course, is that you should actually wonder whether the Balrog physically has wings. But this is a misconception, because the Balrog is not a physical creature. It is a Dark Power, yet it has no actual body, like the Wizards have. It is a mere darkness that spreads wherever it goes, but it does not have a body. The wings, I think, should mostly be seen as a metaphor.

Of course, for the movie, it has to be more concrete, and not just a vague power that is half described and basically consists of fear, so the Balrog got an actual body, like it had in the John Howe illustrations, where again, to visuallize this power, it had to be given a physical form.

- Marc, geek.

[jw2285gd 0]

the ee in geek stands for electrical engineer!

[ridan 0]

No, it isn't, but you should definitely read the appendices, and then The Silmarillion. Only then you will begin to understand LOTR.

I have one question. When i read TTT, i read that Aragon's Blade (anduril?) had expelled fire light. Is that true or it was a beautiful description of the blade in battle? I think i saw Aragotn in the TTT videogame holding a firesword. Anyway anduril does not appear (adaptedly odd) in the two first movies so... maybe we have a surprise in ROTK...

I don't remember reading anything like this, but if it's really in the book, it's only a description. The Balrogs had fire swords, but Narsil/Anduril didn't have any magic to it. It wasn't even from Gondolin if I'm not very wrong, so it didn't even have that blue shining when Orcs were close.

Marian - wondering why they made Sting glow blue in FOTR, but not Glamdring.

Because not all elvish stuff glows. Sting was made specially in Gondolin in the first age. Narsil, in its original form, was made by the Dwarven smith Telchar, and the dwarves are known for their cleverness with metal and stone. it is possible that Anduril does have some sort of craft that makes it seem like fire. (By the way, anduril means "west-flame", and narsil means "sun-moon")

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

Aha! There is the answer to the riddles. Not all Elvish stuff glows. Makes sense within Tolkien's world of course. As often, the answer is too simple for us to see.

- Marc, not being sarcastic.

[nja 0]

No, it isn't, but you should definitely read the appendices, and then The Silmarillion. Only then you will begin to understand LOTR.

I have one question. When i read TTT, i read that Aragon's Blade (anduril?) had expelled fire light. Is that true or it was a beautiful description of the blade in battle? I think i saw Aragotn in the TTT videogame holding a firesword. Anyway anduril does not appear (adaptedly odd) in the two first movies so... maybe we have a surprise in ROTK...

I don't remember reading anything like this, but if it's really in the book, it's only a description. The Balrogs had fire swords, but Narsil/Anduril didn't have any magic to it. It wasn't even from Gondolin if I'm not very wrong, so it didn't even have that blue shining when Orcs were close.

Marian - wondering why they made Sting glow blue in FOTR, but not Glamdring.

Because not all elvish stuff glows. Sting was made specially in Gondolin in the first age. Narsil, in its original form, was made by the Dwarven smith Telchar, and the dwarves are known for their cleverness with metal and stone. it is possible that Anduril does have some sort of craft that makes it seem like fire. (By the way, anduril means "west-flame", and narsil means "sun-moon")

Most excellent work by ridan- good to have well informed folks among us.

[Marian Schedenig 8,200]

Aha! There is the answer to the riddles. Not all Elvish stuff glows. Makes sense within Tolkien's world of course. As often, the answer is too simple for us to see.

"Not all that is gold glitters" But seriously, haven't we been saying that all the time? At least I have, but maybe I expressed it poorly and have been misunderstood.

Marian - who can think of only three known Gondolin blades: Sting, Orcrist and Glamdring.

[QMM 4]

You're a fanboy too steef

Atleast I ain't no damn hippie.

Stefancos-

Where's the hippie

[nja 0]

Oh, you know how they always run from a fight.