ESB Lovefest makes me sick.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

I swear if the Empire Strikes Back was a dildo, alot of you would constantly have it up your butts.

All of you saying the endtitles are so great, the Rebel Fleet doesn't even compare to Throne Room, and the actual endtitle is just a rehash of the rest of the album. I agree the album is great, but its not the greatest, and it doesn't deserve the nauseating adoration it gets.

Can you say OVERRATED?

[Hector J. Guzman 1]

Now you know the way I feel about Harry Potter

[JoeinAR 1,949]

no Hector I don't. HP doesn't get nearly to over saturation this score gets.

[Hector J. Guzman 1]

Well, that's because ESB is superior, but I mean the threads people make... "something creepy comes this way" and what-not. The book, the puppet of some eagle like creature... it's sickening

[Johnnyecks 33]

Ouch....

I wasn't jumping on the bandwagon, I made my decision after listening to plenty of cues and based my opinion on that! Maybe the end credits are just a re-hash of the rest of the score, but it just does something to me that no other end credits does...... I get giddy when I listen to 'em.

Johnny - who feels as though my comment on ESB is what drove Joe completely off the edge!

[Lurker 5]

I really enjoy the conclusion the Empire end titles. I don't think it's the greatest Williams score or even the greatest Star Wars score.

Colorful post though, Joe.

Neil

[JoeinAR 1,949]

Actually Johnny I had decided last night on the way to Barnes and Noble, I just now got around to the puter.

Colorful post though, Joe.  

Sometimes Neil you gotta grabbed um by the $@!!$

[Johnnyecks 33]

Oh... phew...

Johnny feels better!

(silently wondering if I can actually make it 200 posts today!)

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

and the actual endtitle is just a rehash of the rest of the album.  

Nonsense, the music in the end credits is arranged differently then the versions of Yoda's Theme, Han Solo & The Princess and The Imperial march in the rest of the film.

[Hector J. Guzman 1]

Ah, that's true. I love that part of the Imperial March

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

As do I boyo...as do I

[Hector J. Guzman 1]

(silently wondering if I can actually make it 200 posts today!)

200 and on to 1000

[Johnnyecks 33]

LOL! I've been here long enough... I'm surprised that I haven't posted more than I already have!

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

Hell yeah.

- Marc, has reached the 1-trip-O. Boo ya!

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Congratulations Marc.

You belong with the big boys now.

Time to get a claw hammer and pry your nailed hands from that tree of Woe.

[King Mark 3,631]

Joe is reacting to my calling the HPSS Rehash End Credits,but I don't think he gets my point.

Maybe if I explain it more therally...

For ESB,Williams composed the tracks Han Solo and the Princess,The Imperial March,and Yoda's Theme.For the End Credits,he recorded a differently orchestrated and faster paced version of those themes that have nothing to do with the concert versions.Just like he did for Star Wars,Superman,Return of the Jedi,CE3K,E.T. and the 3 Indiana Jones movies.

For HPSS,Williams composed Hedwig's Theme and Harry's Wondrous World,then the film music editors stuck them togheter(same recording) and Voila!... here is an End Credits suite for the movie.Same thing happened in Hook(except the first part),TPM,and Harry Potter.In other words,there is NO point having those concert versions AND the End Credits suite on the SAME c.d. album as they are the exactly the same recording.I was very frustrated when this was done in the TPM O.S.T.

K.M.

[Johnnyecks 33]

For HPSS,Williams composed Hedwig's Theme and Harry's Wondrous World,then the film music editors  stuck them togheter(same recording) and Voila!... here is an End Credits suite for the movie.Same thing happened in Hook(except the first part),TPM,and Harry Potter.In other words,there is NO point having those concert versions AND the End Credits suite on the SAME c.d. album as they are the exactly the same recording.I was very frustrated when this was done in the TPM O.S.T.

K.M.

I feel the same way K.M., I have noticed that myself! It's frustrating after listening to the HPSS cd and getting the ending and no big finale, just tracks that you've already heard in an arrangement that you've already heard.

Now, if TOD's end credits weren't chopped up on the O.S.T and were left intact and played as heard in the movie, then I feel as though TOD would be my fav. end credits and not ESB....but....well you know what happened!

And congrats Marc on the big 1k!!!

I feel like such a small fry mingling with the big boys.

[Lurker 5]

The Harry Potter CD does not have an "End Title" track on it. TPM does though.

Heck, even Star Wars plays the same part twice in the "Main" and "End Titles".

Neil

[Adam 1]

Harry Potter has more of an end title track in the sense that Harrry's Wondrous World seems to be clearly written for the end titles and presents many of the themes in an original arrangement (and in the movie, of course, the trailer version of Hedwig's theme is added on making it not completely original). TPM soundtrack has an end title in the technical sense but, in comparison, exists more as two concert arrangements spliced together with no real connection to one another. It feels less like the music was written for the purposes of the end title than Harry Potter. But maybe we're just looking at the issue differently.

- Adam

[A24 4,353]

For me Star Wars (A New Hope) is one of the best scores ever written. I'm a little puzzled too about the endless adoration that reigns here for The Empire Strikes Back.

----------------

Alex Cremers

[Ren 75]

I'm not an expert on the ESB endtitles. I'm not completely FOND of the ESB ones though.

Ren, who thinks it's neat that stefan still holds her pic hostage on his avatar.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Only untill you return mine.

[Adam 1]

All of you saying the endtitles are so great' date=' the Rebel Fleet doesn't even compare to Throne Room, and the actual endtitle is just a rehash of the rest of the album. I agree the album is great, but its not the greatest, and it doesn't deserve the nauseating adoration it gets.

Can you say [b']OVERRATED

I suspect most of us, when rating end titles, were thinking of just that - the end titles - not the portion of music that goes before it. And that seems like the more appropriate and common sensical interpretation of the question being asked. Practically every end title that has ever been written is a “rehash” is some form - certainly Star Wars is. Hymn to the Fallen would be one rare exception that I can think of off-hand (among JW scores).

If people are saying that ESB is the best because of the bandwagon effect than I would join in the criticism of that. But there’s also the very likely possibility that people are saying it because ESB remains a favorite more than any other JW score among his fans, which has long been the case from my observation. Its only overrated if we’re willing to apply someone else’s standards for what constitutes “greatest”,“best” or whatever the case may be. I don’t see any reason to do that. In fact, talking about “greatest” is extremely difficult because everyone is going to have their own criteria, with infinite possibilties for how much weight we give to a whole range of factors. About the most we can say is that a lot of people really enjoy ESB. That wouldn’t bother me even if I wasn’t one of those of people.

But I can appreciate the sentiment of intellectual independence, even I disagree in this case.

- Adam

[King Mark 3,631]

Heck, even Star Wars plays the same part twice in the "Main" and "End Titles".

Neil

Yes,as Superman,but we still have a Princess Leia's Theme and Superman Love Theme that that are distinct.

K.M.

[King Mark 3,631]

Harry Potter has more of an end title track in the sense that Harrry's Wondrous World seems to be clearly written for the end titles and presents many of the themes in an original arrangement (and in the movie, of course, the trailer version of Hedwig's theme is added on making it not completely original). TPM soundtrack has an end title in the technical sense but, in comparison, exists more as two concert arrangements spliced together with no real connection to one another. It feels less like the music was written for the purposes of the end title than Harry Potter. But maybe we're just looking at the issue differently.

- Adam

I agree and wanted to make that distinction earlier with the case of TPM.It does seem Harry's Wonderous World was written for the End Credits.Well at least Williams didn't put any redundant material on the soundtrack album as he did with TPM (and Jurassic Park,and The Patriot and all the others with "reprise" tracks...ect...),maximising space for other cues.So the HPPS remains a very well produced album.

But if i was the album producer,I might have made a big Finale/End Credits cue:

The House Cup/Leaving Hogwarts/Harry's Wondrous World/Hedwig's Theme

And I think the only reason the ToD Finale and Credit were shortened for the album was that it didn't fit on the LP.

K.M.

K.M.

[ST-321 4]

So are we all agreed that the TPM "end credits" are the worst? I'm still mad that they did the cut and past job there.

[Lurker 5]

So are we all agreed that the TPM "end credits" are the worst? I'm still mad that they did the cut and past job there.  

The "End Credits" to TPM would be fine if the album didn't include the concert versions of "Duel of the Fates" and "Anakin's Theme" since that's all that was used as the end titles.

Neil

[Rogue_Leader 2]

I swear if the Empire Strikes Back was a dildo' date=' alot of you would constantly have it up your butts.

All of you saying the endtitles are so great, the Rebel Fleet doesn't even compare to Throne Room, and the actual endtitle is just a rehash of the rest of the album. I agree the album is great, but its not the greatest, and it doesn't deserve the nauseating adoration it gets.

Can you say [b']OVERRATED

Empire Strikes Back isn't a dildo. Its like getting it on with a Harem of Victoria's Secret models.

IT IS .... THAT DAMN GOOD! ::

-Rogue_Leader who doesn't care what anyone thinks he may be overrating.

[Jeshopk 8]

Empire Strikes Back was a soundtack I reserved for the film until I was 12 or so (7 years after its release). I had the large story book album and whenever I would listen to it, the music accompanied by the story would fill me with so much inspiration and vigor that I could somehow be stronger than my brother's 2 years older friends.

When I purchased the cassette it was really a masterpiece. While Vader's theme was an old staple by then, so many other moments haunted me as I fell asleep in my bedroom. I would stay slighty awake to remain conscious of the music, and let it guide my dreams and fantasies. I remember one dream I had was avenging the (fictional) death of a cute girl in my class.

Empire Strikes Back is dark heroism, doomed love, and a constant yearning.

Technically, when one listens to the low strings, one can find a wealth of bravado, not for bravado's sake, but describing the weight and action of the story. It is a wonderful thing to hear the Violas, Cellos and Basses carrying so much of the momentum.

When Williams says he finds the inspiration for the music in the movies themselves, we can see that Empire is a unique film among his scoring assignments. It is operatic, unresolved and takes its sci-fi seriously. The tone was heavier, more sinister, and the acting performances provided a wealth of "cues" for the composer, unlike the flat acting of today which leaves much of the inspiration to come from the visuals.

[Yoda Longbottom 0]

So are we all agreed that the TPM "end credits" are the worst? I'm still mad that they did the cut and past job there.  

I think JW here sort of got caught in a trap. First, TPM has unnecessarily too many --albeit some are more or less underdeveloped-- motifs to include all of them in an end-title suite and "Duel of the Fates" itself is all but ductile of a theme to cut a fragment off of it and work it into a suite restatement. Moreover and unlike "Anakin's Theme" or "Across the Stars", "Duel of the Fates", as much as I love it, is not a Star Wars music and it doesn't mesh well with all the other saga's themes. Myself I could imagine TPM end-titles without DotF, but could this world...?

Roman.-)

[Jeshopk 8]

The TPM End Credits were not meant to be a rehash in the film. Remember that Williams wrote different material than was used in the film for the actual duel. It was still Duel of the Fates, but much more action-following, not just a concert version which has no "cues"inside it. Therefore, if the film had been presented as Williams intended, the end credits would have been all new material. Duel of the Fates and Anakin's Theme were written for the end credits.

When I saw DOTF performed in Boston Symphony Hall, it used the same orchestration, but the natural sound was more like the older Star Wars recordings, and meshed well in a Suite with the old Star Wars music as presented by Williams. Much of the new sound has to do with different, more advanced (too sleek in my opinion) recording techniques.

I especially lament the recording of the AOTC soundtrack. While some cues are recorded nicely (coruscant chase) other cues have an entirely different, over-processed ambience (asteroid chase).

I think a live concert of the music would bring out its serious timbres rather than simplifying them to a silver-edged object of commercialism.

[Adam 1]

Empire Strikes Back is dark heroism, doomed love, and a constant yearning.

Technically, when one listens to the low strings, one can find a wealth of bravado, not for bravado's sake, but describing the weight and action of the story. It is a wonderful thing to hear the Violas, Cellos and Basses carrying so much of the momentum.

When Williams says he finds the inspiration for the music in the movies themselves, we can see that Empire is a unique film among his scoring assignments. It is operatic, unresolved and takes its sci-fi seriously. The tone was heavier, more sinister, and the acting performances provided a wealth of "cues" for the composer, unlike the flat acting of today which leaves much of the inspiration to come from the visuals.

Very well said. I think the epic sweep combined with the darker, "heavier", as you say, feel of the film, as well as a kind of melancholy aspect, explains why the score resonates with me more than others. Of course, others might prefer Star Wars for the opposite reasons - lighter, more fun, etc. But, it would be hard to say either one is better in any meaningful sense. Just different scores for different types of movies - both incredibly effective.

- Adam

[Chris ChrusherComix 46]

If it wasn't for these 6 scores in this order of importance...

1) The Empire Strikes Back

2) Star Wars

3) Raiders Of The Lost Ark

4) Superman: The Movie

5) E.T.

6) Return Of The Jedi

...then I would NOT be here today!

Those were the 1st 6 Williams scores I owned, and they are the 6 that made me collect hundreds of Williams-related CDs, LPs, CDRs, Cassettes, 8-Tracks, MDs, VHS tapes, and DVDs ever since. And to this day, I hold the above 6 the core of my collection, even though many favorites have since joined them.

Empire IS the #1 reason why I am such a Williams fan. I don't know if you are joking or not, but I strongly disagree with your over-rated rating.

If you ask me, Towering Inferno is rated correctly (because nobody ever talks about it LOL) and the Harry Potter scores are overrated. However, if that quote in your signature is correct, I will be very excited to hear this new Potter score! 8O

-Chris, Who loves when Joe jokes around, but sometimes wonders if he's joking or if he's serious... like this one.

[Chris ChrusherComix 46]

I agree with KM and the others when they are angered over original soundtrack albums including the exact same recording two or three times while leaving off such great parts of the scores. It's a cheap way of filling space on an album. TPM and Jurassic Park are possibly the worst case scenarios IMO, although there are others.

Now, if the entire score itself was only 45 minutes, then who cares... but when the whole score is like 2 hours and we get repeated material, that's just plain wasteful.

[Rogue_Leader 2]

The AOTC end credits were very cut and paste as well.

JW needs to get back to scoring the end credits "old school" when he would really rework the themes of the score into unique performances.

[Lurker 5]

The AOTC end credits were very cut and paste as well.

In the film, the concert version of "Across the Stars" is used, while Williams' original end title cue (heard on the CD) has a much different ending.

Neil

[Rogue_Leader 2]

The AOTC end credits were very cut and paste as well.

In the film, the concert version of "Across the Stars" is used, while Williams' original end title cue (heard on the CD) has a much different ending.

Neil

Yeah I know its fairly different and the end there, but its mostly the same as I remember it.

Perhaps I need to go back and have another listen,

[King Mark 3,631]

Yes,indeed you need to listen to the c.d.

K.M.Who doesn't include AotC as Rehash End Credits.

[Rogue_Leader 2]

OK rehash is too harsh of a word. Perhaps standard is the more preffered word here. It just seems like as if Williams didn't really take any chances any try and create something more memorable with the AOTC end credits.

Though considering the film its made for, I can hardly blame him if he felt a lack of motivation.

[King Mark 3,631]

Personally i think the love theme is at it's best on that track,and it's the best track of the AotC album...and it wasn't used in the movie.The horn solo of Anakin's Theme at the end is superb.

K.M.

[King Mark 3,631]

After further thought and analysis,i retract my comment about HPSS having Re-Hash End Credits.It is true Williams said himself Harry's Wondrous World was a medley of the themes for the end of the movie,and also Hedwig's Theme DOES have a couunterpart distinct concert version as heard in "Prologue" on the HPSS c.d.(forgot about that).

Plus,I forgot about the children's suite which consists of concert versions of other themes but was not recorded for the c.d.

K.M.

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

I have no idea why they didn't include the ending of the original end credits. It's absolutely insane. In fact, but maybe this is just me, when I was watching the film in the theatre the first time, I got the sense that the end credits were actually sped up, so it fit within ATS, and the ending of the end credits cue could be excluded. I'm probably chasing ghosts here, but that's just how it looked to me back then.

- Marc

[Justin 2]

I find the End Titles to AOTC to be fantastic. And no less memorable than the changes made to the ESB End Titles. (Note I said the changes, not the music. )

Justin -Who really hates it when the End Title cues for any movie are edited. (Nemesis, CoS, CEOTK. )

[Elmo Lewis 6]

Empire Strikes Back isn't a dildo. Its like getting it on with a Harem of Victoria's Secret models.  

IT IS .... THAT DAMN GOOD! ::

Either the Harem of Victoria's Secret models you "got it on with" were rookies, or you really need to work on your sex practices.

-Ross, who knows there are things in life that weren't made for comparison.

[Elmo Lewis 6]

As for the topic title, I find TESB end credits to be an average, not-good-not-bad end credits suite. They aren't outstanding. But they are certainly better than the 90's end credits we have been getting: Jurassic Park, Harry Potter, Catch Me If You Can, Seven Years in Tibet... Cut and paste from the concert versions (with the blatant case of saving Private Ryan). Not too perceptible in film, but really annoying on CD.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

-Chris, Who loves when Joe jokes around, but sometimes wonders if he's joking or if he's serious... like this one.  

Of course the signature is a joke. Even John acknowledges that the Empires Strikes Back is overrated.

But no Chris, I am not joking when I say this lovefest with ESB is sickening. I admit its a great score, but there are better scores than it. 4 of the six you list are better scores. As for the endtitles the Rebel Fleet is a reworking of other teams, including Throne Room, and I will argue that Hedwig's Theme is better. Of course this is personal opinion and there is no quantitative measure to prove or disprove my point or any other point.

I would say that E.T., Star Wars, Close Encounters, Superman, Raiders of the Lost Ark, Jaws, are all overall better scores and work better in the film than does ESB, but they are all originals, and to me the only standout theme in ESB is Darth Vaders Theme/Imperial March. Asteroid Field is also exceptional. Yoda's theme is a throwaway, as are some of the rest. Rebel Fleet and Endtitles is a wonderful piece but only the second best endtitle in the Star Wars Universe.

Does anyone find it interesting that the seemingl most popular Star Wars film here is the least successful at the boxoffice?

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

Return of the Jedi made less money than The Empire Strikes Back worldwide, but domestically it did beat ESB.

As for your comments on the score itself; say what you will, but I stand by my opinion, that ESB friggin' rocks! I love this score. I've brought this up before, that the score might be too big for the film, something I think the original wasn't. However, I think that by being bigger, the score compliments and enhances the experience of an already fine movie.

- Marc, has just changed his avatar.

[A24 4,353]

Return of the Jedi made less money than The Empire Strikes Back worldwide, but domestically it did beat ESB.

I think Empire had more visitors but tickets were cheaper.

----------------

Alex Cremers

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

Even when inflation is counted, Empire made more dough. It also beats the two prequels. Star Wars still stands on lonely heights though, among the 5 of them.

- Marc, who finds this irrelevant, but anyway.

[A24 4,353]

I don't care either but where's that list that incorporates inflation?