Horner's 4-note danger motif

[Pelzter 0]

Where is it? I've heard talk about it in so many reviews and so frequently on this site... yet I have never been able to identify it. Can some of you name places in his more famous scores (i.e. Legends of the Fall, Braveheart, Titanic, Enemy at the Gates, etc.) where it appears?

--Pelzter, who thinks he may have identified it in Troy, but isn't sure

[King Mark 3,975]

It took me along time to identify it too.It's obviuos once you know.

K.m.Who'll let others quote specific track times

[Mr. Breathmask 624]

It plays at the very end of the end credits to Titanic.

Also when Cal gives Rose the necklace, I believe.

[BurgaFlippinMan 7]

its in the final shot of the andrea gail sinking in the Perfect Storm. Its all over the place in Enemy of hte Gates. As for Troy, I think its used in quite a majestic form in the shot of the first ship landing on the beach during the invasion (as well as Achilles raising his sword over the army after his first meeting with Hector)

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 12,392]

It's in Titanic?

It's definatly not on the CD release.

It's not in Braveheart, btw.

Find it on track 1 of Willow (34 seconds into it)

[Morlock 12]

The very begining of 'Surprise Attack' from Wrath of Khan (literally the first four notes), and throughout the cue.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 12,392]

Very good, though it's not yet as pronounced as he would later use it.

[Mr. Breathmask 624]

No, the four notes are not on the Titanic OST, but it's used in the score several times.

[ChrisAfonso 237]

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 12,392]

The only Horner score I have were that theme has bothered me is The Mask Of Zorro.

[nightscape94 968]

Does he generally always score it with that rhythmic base? Triplet into something else, like a quarter, half, or whole note?

Tim, not really familiar with Horner, other then Rocketeer, Willow and Apollo 13

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 12,392]

He generally scores it pretty much like he used it in Willow.

Though I think he sped it up a bit for Troy and Enemy At The Gates.

[King Mark 3,975]

It took me years to find out what it was.On this level,maybe Horner uses it to signify danger on a subconcious level for the movie audience,rather than inventing a new danger theme each time to please score fans.

K.M.

[nightscape94 968]

Funny...

I just listened to it on Willow then on Wrath of Khan. It is obviously noticeable once you hear it.

Tim

[King Mark 3,975]

It's pretty inconspicuous unless you set to find it out.It's not like if Williams scored every villain with The imperial March.

It's more like an orchestration than a motif,like when Williams puts woodwind runs in this action cues,there always the same.

K.M.

[BurgaFlippinMan 7]

I first noticed it in Enemy of the Gates where its featured quite prominently many times. Since then, its been stuck in my head and I notice it everytime it crops up in other movies/scores

[futuremartymcfly 0]

Its everywhere in Troy, where it only has a tad bit of adjustments made. But I haven't heard it in Titanic either.

[Mr. Breathmask 624]

I might have been thinking of another four-note motif. It sounds slightly similar to the raptor motif from Jurassic Park. I think it's somewhere in Jumanji too.

- Marc, slightly confused now.

[nightscape94 968]

I don't think it sounds anything like the raptor motif. The only thing they have in common is that they're both 4 notes. Other then that, they are not intervalically similar, rhythmically shared, nor do I find that they sound alike.

Tim

[ChrisAfonso 237]

No, this is THE 4-note danger motif, and has no resemblance to any of the 3 JP predator motifs.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 12,392]

This is what we are talking about.

[Maestro 1,603]

I noticed it long before I read of it on the internet. It's funny; even some of my "laymen" friends have picked up on it. I don't think you have to be looking for it to find it. It's just obvious.

[nightscape94 968]

Does it always represent danger?

Tim

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 12,392]

No, it's been used as building chords to a big crescendo, or some other action music device.

[Mr. Breathmask 624]

This is what we are talking about.

Crap. Nope, that's not in Titanic.

But there is a four-note motif in Titanic that's very ominous.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 12,392]

Well so is Goldsmith's Borg motif, that doesn't make it The 4 Note Danger motif.

[Mr. Breathmask 624]

Blah. It's a 4-note danger motif.

Just not the 4-note danger motif.

[deimos 0]

A few weeks ago Willow was on Tv, and my father was watching it in the living room. I didn't know what movie he was watching, but i just overheard the music: the four notes motif! In fact, I wasn't sure which movie was till I actually went to the living room, cause with the 4 notes motif as reference I had several candidates!

[Marian Schedenig 11,695]

Where is it?

In Wagner's Der Ring des Nibelungen.

:?

[TIEfighter 0]

just have a listen to "the trojans attack" from the troy soundtrack, you can hear it everywhere and it´s quite obvious!

[Morlock 12]

I actually quite like it in Troy. A nice energized version of it.

[Vaderbait1 1]

It's all over all of his scores. I think he starts with that and then builds off of it as the center of every score he writes!

[fommes 165]

The only Horner score I have were that theme has bothered me is The Mask Of Zorro.

I agree - that and in Troy it bothers me immensely.

[David Coscina 4]

okay I must shout here:

THIS IS NOT A DANGER MOTIF- IT'S THE BEGINNING OF RACHMANINOV'S 1ST SYMPHONY!!!! PLEASE STOP CALLING IT "HORNER'S DANGER MOTIF". thanks kindly.

[pi 0]

okay I must shout here:

THIS IS NOT A DANGER MOTIF- IT'S THE BEGINNING OF RACHMANINOV'S 1ST SYMPHONY!!!!  PLEASE STOP CALLING IT "HORNER'S DANGER MOTIF". thanks kindly.

Ahh a simply wonderful piece. 4th movement is great! to think he burned the score after it was played

[Morlock 12]

okay I must shout here:

THIS IS NOT A DANGER MOTIF- IT'S THE BEGINNING OF RACHMANINOV'S 1ST SYMPHONY!!!!  PLEASE STOP CALLING IT "HORNER'S DANGER MOTIF". thanks kindly.

To-may-toe, to-mah-toe.

[Marian Schedenig 11,695]

okay THIS IS NOT A DANGER MOTIF- IT'S THE BEGINNING OF RACHMANINOV'S 1ST SYMPHONY!!!!  PLEASE STOP CALLING IT "HORNER'S DANGER MOTIF". thanks kindly.

As I said before, it's not Rachmaninov, it's Wagner (changed by a semitone).

[nightscape94 968]

Where's it at in the Ring cycle? (as you mentioned in an earlier post). I've only listened to Die Walkure and Das Rheingold.

Tim

[pi 0]

PS Rachmaninoff really took using the Dies Irea Motif to a new level - he used it in like EVERY piece. even more the Listz

[ChrisAfonso 237]

It's in Walküre and Siegfried, at least. In Siegfried indeed in the very introduction to the first Act. In Walküre monstly in the 2nd Act.

[Morlock 12]

PS Rachmaninoff really took using the Dies Irea Motif to a new level - he used it in like EVERY piece.  even more the Listz

But unless I am mistaken, the four notes have nothing to do with the Dies Irea Motif......

[Marian Schedenig 11,695]

Where's it at in the Ring cycle? (as you mentioned in an earlier post).  I've only listened to Die Walkure and Das Rheingold.

Chris already mentioned the relevant places. The four notes form the opening of the "Unmuth" motif, which is basically all over the second act of Die Walküre. As far as I remember, the 4 notes also pop up in Parsifal though, but I'm not very familiar with that work yet.

Starship Troopers (Basil Poledouris)

[nightscape94 968]

Cool, I found an example here for Wagner's Displeasure theme...and yes, I concur.

Tim

[King Mark 3,975]

It still could be a coincidence

K.M.

[nightscape94 968]

Perhaps, I'm certainly not a Horner-basher, so it really doesn't matter to me where he got it. We are, after all, only talking about 4 notes.

Tim, Rachmaninov's Vespers: Mass for Unaccompanied Chorus, "Blagoslovi, Dushe Moya"

[David Coscina 4]

Cool, I found an example here for Wagner's Displeasure theme...and yes, I concur.

Tim

it's not quite the same thing. Same rhythmic structure but the intervalic relationships aren't the same. with a root pedal, Wagner's "Displeasure" motive begins on the dominant and moves up and down the minor scale. Rachmaninov's opening motive is a chromatic figure that moves from 7th degree, root, minor 2nd, to root. They may sound the same but they aren't.

[Jeshopk 8]

You mean Prokofiev's 4-note danger motif? It's bad enough that he constantly re-uses it, but it's not even his, and he aknowledges so by placing it aside other Alexander Nevsky derived music.

[nightscape94 968]

Cool, I found an example here for Wagner's Displeasure theme...and yes, I concur.

Tim

it's not quite the same thing. Same rhythmic structure but the intervalic relationships aren't the same. with a root pedal, Wagner's "Displeasure" motive begins on the dominant and moves up and down the minor scale. Rachmaninov's opening motive is a chromatic figure that moves from 7th degree, root, minor 2nd, to root. They may sound the same but they aren't.

Huh? I didn't say anything about Rachmaninov. I was speaking about Wagner's "Displeasure" theme and Horner's "danger" motif.

Oddly, the example given at the site I linked is practically the same, notationally, and in the same key, as the one Chris posted. The only difference is that the 5th isn't diminished in Wagner's version. That could be a big difference, normally, but the quick rhythmic triplet figure that they share makes them sound closer.

Tim

[Diego 21]

It also appears one or two times on "The Land before Time" if I remember correctly.

[Henry B 51]

Williams uses the four-note "Dies Irae" motif in a lot of his scores, and nobody minds.