Datameister

I voted no. Geisha is a very interesting score, from what I've heard, and it's certainly a whole different vein from the Maestro's other work. But I would rather have a more interesting GoF score than the one Doyle provided. Remember how different and refreshing PoA was, although not as much as Geisha? Perhaps a Williams score for GoF would have similarly explored new musical territory, whereas Doyle's score felt mostly like uninteresting "filler" to me. I didn't like his treatment of Hedwig's theme either, although it was at least different. As several people have mentioned, it would have been ideal if he'd created innovative and enjoyable scores for both...but that could have perhaps compromised the quality of either project.

Thanks!

That's true; the initial fanfare is heard (tracked?) in the Obi-Wan/Grievous duel, which I've edited much like the film version. That doesn't take care of the low brass motif before the Force theme, though. That's absent from my edit, sadly.

Well, I'm not so much trying to match the film edit as I am trying to create the most enjoyable listening experience for myself possible. For me, that sometimes means re-creating the film edit, but often times it means preserving the original cue as much as possible with my limited resources. In the case of this cue, I liked the idea of the film edit better than what John Williams originally wrote for those few seconds before the Force theme. Unfortunately, the film edit wasn't very well executed so I decided to make that transition more...musical, I suppose. The OST version of the cue is just as easily accessible in iTunes or on my iPod, so I can listen to whichever version I feel like. Sometimes, my method also means including music that was omitted from the film edit. For instance, my edit cuts right to the OST beginning of "Rolling with Grievous" from the final crescendo of "Palpatine's Seduction." In the film, that crescendo has a clean ending, and no music plays for a while. But I found it more enjoyable the way I'm sure Maestro Williams intended the transition, so that's how I edited it. When I said that your version probably sounded fine, I meant that the edit itself probably sounded better than the edit itself in my version (without the Padme's Visit addition). As far as the structure itself goes, I prefer the film version. I know, because I tried doing it your way before I did it this way. But if you prefer your version, there's nothing wrong with that--it's all about what creates the most musical enjoyment for you personally. Your method is more complete, yes. But completeness isn't the only factor that influences my listening experience. Since I can pull up the OST version at any time and hear the pre-Force-theme material, I have no qualms about omitting a few seconds of music from my own edit in order to improve the flow. It's all a matter of personal preference. Datameister, who doesn't waste music either P.S. Goodmusician, I think I understand what you're saying now. Sounds to me like you've done the Main Title/Boys Into Battle transition the same way I have, except without the Padme's Visit chord. Try it--I think you'll like it better. It's just a small change that makes a big difference.

Any way to hear this broadcast from the U.S.?

King Mark, the difference with me is that I'm not using the fanfare and so on that can be heard on the OST before the Force theme enters. I'm just cutting straight from the war drums to the Force theme (with war drums), and that transition is musically awkward. It sounds that way to me in the film, too, although the sound of the starfighters actually helps a bit. As a musician, I expect to hear some sort of crescendo into the Force theme. To have the war drums booming by themselves and then suddenly be accompanied by a full orchestra, without any sort of transition, sounds strange to me. It feels more natural to include that last chord of "Padme's Visit" because it crescendos into and resolves to the first D minor chord of the Force theme. Your version (which does contain the unusued OST material, right?) would probably sound just fine because there isn't that awkward leap. Goodmusician, I'm not quite sure I understand what you said...could you clarify, please? No offense taken, nightscape. I just wanted to make it clear that I wasn't the one who initially asked the question.

Wonderful cue. Especially with "Anakin Crawling" added to the end. It's beautiful music that somehow works with the not-so-pretty images on the screen.

You're probably right about the aforementioned scoriing session material; most of it would be pretty dull. However, as a musician myself, I'd probably find some of it very interesting (and I'd be able to hear the cues in their unedited form!). I wouldn't pay too much money for something like this unless I knew it contained the final recordings of all the ROTS cues, in which case I would pay BIG MONEY.

Cool stuff! I'm considering buying it...

Now, if only all of that material were released to us...

In a sense, there are alternate cues used in the movie (or in the album, whichever you like). However, it's not that these were recorded separately; the heavy percussion you hear in a number of cues was mixed into the original recordings. As I understand it, most of the percussion that was considered "optional" for ROTS was recorded separately. This includes the aforementioned bass drum hits, snare drum, some cymbal stuff, etc. This was mixed into the film quite prominently, but for whatever reason, it was toned way down for the album. Listen closely; you'll still hear that bass drum in some of those cues, but much softer than in the film. Some people can't stand these overdubs. I personally like some of them--namely, the ones that seem to have been implemented by someone with musical background. An example of one I can't stand can be heard in "Heroes Collide" ("Anakin vs. Obi-Wan"). When the fast 3/4 section of Battle of the Heroes plays in F minor (as Yoda and Palpatine ascend into the senate arena), the bass drum hits continue happily in 2/2...which was the meter a moment before. This seems to have been done by one of the sound editors, and it sounds terrible. Since the meters don't match up, you end up with heavy hits on weird parts of the measures. Musically disorienting, and not in a good way. As far as those descriptions in the score report go, I don't really know how correct they are. I've wondered myself. My guess is that there was some misunderstanding (or misinformation). This was written before the release of the movie, I believe. Anyone know why this discrepancy happened? (By the way, if you decide you want to re-mix those bass drum hits into the soundtrack, there's an easy way to do it. Just rip the audio from the first few seconds after the main title on the DVD, when the war drums play "boom, boom...boom, boom...boom, boom..." You should be able to loop one or two of these through the parts of "Boys Into Battle" where you want drums, and with the help of a little cut-and-paste and some reverb, you can implement this bass drum into the other cues, too. I fixed the aforementioned 3/4 section and man, oh man, did it feel good. )

That's the interesting self-contradiction with ROTS, isn't it? On the one hand, it's the dead center of the saga as far as the fictional chronology goes. But at the same time, it's really the end of the saga in the real chronology we live in. So which way should the credits have gone...dark, brooding, and appropriate to the movie's end, or uplifting and sentimental to remind us of the OT? I think Maestro Williams leaned a little too far to the latter. Still, I love those transitions in and out of BotH...

Really? I'd like to know more about that...Who was it?

IMO, it'll really be a pity if Maestro Williams doesn't return to the Harry Potter movies. Doyle's attempt at the GoF score was admirable, but I didn't enjoy it much. I thought his scores for both SS and PoA were much more enjoyable, although they couldn't have been much more different from each other.

Lots of interesting opinions here. I'd say the majority of us would agree that the ESB credits seem to be the most well-thought-out. The transitions between the themes (especially Yoda to Imperial March, as Delorean90 mentioned) are expertly written and the entire piece has a nice "flow" to it. I understand a lot of the ROTS-credits-bashing going on here. I certainly felt like Maestro Williams didn't really deliver with the final cue of the final Star Wars movie, at least as far as flow goes. The use of Leia's theme is beautiful out of the context of the film and certainly has sentimental value, but it's not very appropriate to the film itself. (The transition from Leia's theme into Battle of the Heroes is pure genius, IMO, and it goes without saying that BotH is a lot of fun.) I thought that the transition out of BotH sounded like it could have been great...but then it goes into the Throne Room music in a rather abrupt change. Again, the throne room music has sentimental value (although I thought the new performance was vastly inferior to the original) but doesn't really fit with the movie. I did like the use of the ROTJ ending, though. It felt like the penultimate fermata was held out just a little longer than in ROTJ...a nice touch. That being said...we should all stop complaining about the ROTS credits. They weren't THAT bad. If you don't like 'em, rewrite them yourself. I should make that a project for myself. Let's see...

Whoops! Sorry about that; must have missed it while reading your earlier post. The Force is strong with that cue...

Another interesting discovery. If you edit the transition from the main title into "Boys Into Battle" the way it was done in the film (with the overdubbed war drums, etc.), you'll end up with a rough and abrupt transition into the initial Force theme statement. This rather uncomfortable transition was partially masked in the film by the sound of the Jedi starfighters passing into the frame, but only partially. If you want to edit this scene as it was in the movie but don't like that awkward transition, try using the last chord of "Padme's Visit" to help. Fade it in over the drums right before the Force theme enters. This allows the music to build out of the steady "boom...boom, boom....boom, boom..." and into the louder, more opaque music. Allow the end of the chord to slightly overlap beat 3 and use some sort of reverb to give the end of the chord some natural ring. This overall works quite well.

I personally don't like a lot of songs, but I wouldn't dare to assert that just because most film music is more complex that it is "better." It just appeals to my emotions more effectively. In the past, I've seen snobbery toward both sides--people who dislike orchestral music saying that popular music is better, and people who dislike popular music saying that orchestral music is better. Bottom line: what do YOU enjoy listening to the most? Listen to that, and appreciate that different people have different tastes, as hard as that is.

Okay, since threads like this seem to be all the rage right now, I thought I may as well bring up Star Wars credits. Which movie do you think had the best music written for the end credits? I'm going to have to say it's a tie between ANH and ESB for me, although I like the ROTJ ending a lot and the ROTS credits nicely incorporated Battle of the Heroes into a tribute to ANH. What do you guys think? Trivial, perhaps, but something to discuss nevertheless. Take into consideration the orchestration and tempo of the standard Luke's theme/Rebel fanfare intro, the choices and arrangement of music after that, and the overall musical contours of the credits. Which one(s) would make you want to sit through the credits in the theater the most?

Mr. Olivarez, how could we forget that beautiful rendition? Thanks for bringing that one up! I love that one. :goes to listen to it right now:

It's all good. Pity about the echoes, though. Nightscape94, I wasn't the one responsible for the grammatically-iffy question in the first place. That was lordskylark. His question was phrased in a way that invited confusion, but wasn't actually incorrect.

Wait...they don't have no voice echoes, or they don't have voice echoes? The English language is so stupid. Let's chop it up and sell the pieces on eBay! Just an interesting bit of info for those (like me) who actually like some of the percussion overdubs in ROTS: you can get a very clean rip of the war drums just after the main titles. Just loop a couple of measures however long you want, and it works pretty well. You can then overlay this on the OST music and adjust the mixing however you like, rather than use the overdubbed version on the FTP.

I'm with Stefancos on the ending to the Chamber of Secrets. It's just a little too over-the-top for my tastes. I would have preferred a new cue, not an old one with a larger-than-life ending.

You also forgot "Imperial Cruiser Pursuit" from ANH. Not a stereotypical space launch cue, but it fits very well. That high sustained horn note with the triangle roll and string tremolos gets me every time. Horner's "Enterprise Clears Moorings" from Star Trek II was great, also. Technically, the ship to be launched is already in space, but that's all right.

E.T.'s ending is great, but I actually wouldn't call it his best. Someone mentioned AOTC--I thought everything from the Imperial March to the credits was indeed gorgeous. But still, my favorite Williams ending has to be Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone. Think what you will about the movie itself, but the last cue really crescendos beautifully into that last chord and the major-key fragment of Hedwig's Theme works nicely. Not only was that an enjoyable score, but I thought a lot of the orchestration was very well done overall.