Did Goldsmith ever conduct any of Williams' work?

[Quintus 5,399]

This may be a well known subject, but I'm unsure on this. In the same way that Williams conducted Goldsmith on the much celebrated Boston Pops album (I still have the original cassette!), did Goldsmith ever conduct Williams on a similar project?

The reason I ask is because of the petty remarks made by Goldsmith in the upcoming autobiography, as seen on these pages.

John gave some truly outstanding performances of Jerry (I actually prefer the Williams rendition of the Star Trek theme) in the album I mentioned. The respect for Goldsmith's work was obvious.

Did Jerry ever return the favour?

Forgive me if this question is old, but I'd like to know

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Jerry conducted a snippet of Williams Superman Theme for his score to Supergirl.

I think that's about it.

Of course Goldsmith was never the regular conductor of a performing orchestra, so he hardly had the chance.

Williams rendition of the Star trek TMP theme is too slow for my taste.

His performance of the closing track of Alien is superb though.

[Quintus 5,399]

Jerry conducted a snippet of Williams Superman Theme for his score to Supergirl.

I think that's about it.

Of course Goldsmith was never the regular conductor of a performing orchestra, so he hardly had the chance.

Yes thats a good point actually.

But am I wrong in thinking that Goldsmith would still have rather avoided the whole "homage to Williams" element of a possible film themes album, if it was ever to happen in his life time?

This is all hearsay of course.

Williams rendition of the Star trek TMP theme is too slow for my taste.

On the contrary, I think the piece suits the slower pace wonderfully.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Actually, Goldsmith did conduct some Williams.

Studs Lonigan.

[Quintus 5,399]

Actually, Goldsmith did conduct some Williams.

Studs Lonigan.

Yes, but that was before the whole John Williams thing passed into fan legend.

[Ollie 1,069]

He meant he actually conducted Williams playing the piano.

I do know Goldsmith admired Williams' score to Schindler's List.

[Quintus 5,399]

He meant he actually conducted Williams playing the piano.

Exactly. Many, many years ago.

I do know Goldsmith admired Williams' score to Schindler's List.

Of this I'm glad

I'm only saying all this shit because of the comments made within the work in progress autobiography. Goldsmith's comments just seem a little bitter to me, thats all. Regardless - the great man is still a scoring god in my eyes.

[Marcus 390]

Goldsmith was rather bitter, it seems, and about several things. More than anything, I think he felt underappreciated by other serious musicians, and would have wanted more recognition of the complexity and artistic merit of his contribution to not only film music, but music in general.

Whereas Williams enjoys a wonderful career in the world of concert music, and the esteem of his classical peers, and always downplays his own efforts in interviews, Goldsmith tended to come across as a little bitter and disillusioned...He deserved a lot more recognition from the classical world, and it is a great shame he never really got it. Not in life, anyway.

I told him that I was going to dedicate my first symphony to him when I met him in London a few years ago, and he seemed genuinely touched, and very happy and grateful. He also seemed like a very, very sweet, kind and warm-hearted person. I overheard him talking to Richard Kraft about feeling sick, but I didnt realise then that he was actually more or less dying...

[A24 4,367]

Ah, yes, Jerry's bitterness. It was written all over his face. And that's why the big projects went to Williams.

[Jeshopk 8]

He busted his ass to serve both ideals: Film and Art music. Too bad his recognition by the latter community was few and far between compared to his actual contribution to the art. There are some nice quotes about him by conductors and composers though. I think he was too good for most of them anyway.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Ah, yes, Jerry's bitterness. It was written all over his face. And that's why the big projects went to Williams.

I'm sure you of all people know what is is to forever be in the shadow of greatness.

[publicist 4,643]

I think a better word for Goldsmithian remarks on a whole lot of things is..well, grouchy.

Most here seem to infer that the guy led a burdened life, overshadowed by disappointment and misery, which is clearly nonsense. Maybe he really found it silly to see 70-year old Williams conducting the 'Star-Spangled Banner' with a rose-covered hat...

But i eagerly await Jerry's analysis of James Horner's career...the Horner froum will be shaken with disgust....

[A24 4,367]

Ah, yes, Jerry's bitterness. It was written all over his face. And that's why the big projects went to Williams.

I'm sure you of all people know what is is to forever be in the shadow of greatness.

Yes, of course, that's what Williams does a man.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I would not know.

[Ollie 1,069]

Williams rendition of the Star trek TMP theme is too slow for my taste.

His performance of the closing track of Alien is superb though.

I agree.

[pi 0]

I do think he is not appreciated enough by the common person, but he has huge support in the LA community. I heard he had was not as kind as JW was and suffered for it.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

You heard that from who?

[Ollie 1,069]

I personally think Jerry Goldsmith spoke his mind at times and wasn't afraid of ruffling feathers.

"This what I think and if you don't like it that's too bad."

I also think he deserved more recognition than he received. I'm sure once his biography is released we'll know more.

[pi 0]

I heard this from a few people who knew him and/or worked for/with him. While striving for perfection it seems he did it in a blunt way, Williams seems to do it in a gentler way.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

"This what I think and if you don't like it that's too bad."

Like Bernard Herrman, John Barry or Leonard Rosenman!

Williams, compared to these real men, comes off as a bit of a wuss, a bit a a pansy.

Good composer, but he can't walk the walk or talk the talk....

[Ollie 1,069]

Williams already has the orchestra trembling in fear before he takes the stage.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Rubbish!

williams would kindly let a performer know that his playing was nor up to park and ask him to consider his faults and try again tomorrow.

Herrmann would shout at that person and hurl heavy objects at him, while gorging on the raw meat of an elk that he caught and killed himself.

[Ollie 1,069]

[nightscape94 965]

It was funny to hear the end credits suite outtakes from the Far and Away volume 2. The soloist couldn't find the beats or rhythm on some of the notes, and Williams would just stop the orchestra and say "okay, let's do it again, from bar 138" or something like that. He had to do it a couple of times but he never got angry and didn't shout. But I'm sure there are a few instances in his career when an orchestra member just wasn't getting the job done and it drove him over the edge!

Tim

[Marcus 390]

Williams' politeness and decency prove him to be so much more of a man than those of his colleagues who fail to control themselves. I mean, Herrmann was a wonderful composer, but his attitude held him back, not only professionally, but artistically. Williams is a gentleman, and his art proves it. We are what we write, and write what we are.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

That's rhetorical nonsense!

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

That's rhetorical nonsense!

[Marian Schedenig 8,248]

That's redundant nonsense!

[scissorhands 16]

Your Salieri pic is the only redundant thing here.

[Marcus 390]

I happen to believe that what I wrote in my last post is true, and can see only benefits to this belief.

Williams is humble and respectful, not only towards musicians and directors, but towards the human drama that he scores. This is why he captures emotion so well, and so completely.

This is also why Herrmann couldn't score "love" except from a very particular point of view. And why Wagner's characters never seem like real, living beings, and Mozart's do, even though Mozart's language is vastly more stylized. And it is why Beethoven couldn't write opera to save his life!

[King Mark 3,631]

Herrmann can only score "creepy".

K.M.

[Ollie 1,069]

:roll:

You obviously haven't heard enough Herrmann.

[scissorhands 16]

Listen to his Symphony. Very bucolic, only comparable with the most cheerful passages from "The Trouble With Harry".

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I happen to believe that what I wrote in my last post is true, and can see only benefits to this belief.

Williams is humble and respectful, not only towards musicians and directors, but towards the human drama that he scores. This is why he captures emotion so well, and so completely.

This is also why Herrmann couldn't score "love"  except from a very particular point of view. And why Wagner's characters never seem like real, living beings, and Mozart's do, even though Mozart's language is vastly more stylized. And it is why Beethoven couldn't write opera to save his life!

So what you are basically saying is that nice people make for better artists?

That is a rather interesting point of view.

[Incanus 5,730]

Herrmann would shout at that person and hurl heavy objects at him, while gorging on the raw meat of an elk that he caught and killed himself.

God bless that wonderful artist. I am sure there was an air of fear and terror on every Herrmann recording session. He probably had some blunt instruments near the podium so he could hammer incompetent players and bludgeon poor technical staff to death at will.

Herrmann comes off as a very bitter man in his interviews. Not only does he slander other composers and tell baseless rumours about them but he also makes himself sound like the god's gift for directors and bad mouths every other film and person besides his wife and Orson Welles (but it is made clear that Orson can thank Herrmann for his fame). That man sure had pride. I know he was a gifted person but that had gone into his head a wee bit.

[Marian Schedenig 8,248]

And it is why Beethoven couldn't write opera to save his life!

So Fidelio is... what?

[Marcus 390]

"Fidelio" is severely dramatically flawed. Beethoven struggles to generate any kind of sympathy for his characters, and I find it very hard to care when I've seen it. Musically, it's evident that he has a poor understanding of how to musically convey emotion that is not his own. Beethoven lacks the empathy required for being a good dramatist. When he works with non-dramatic structures, he can of course be a lot more "dramatic", even theatrical (transition from movement 2 to 3, "Waldstein"..), but opera really wasn't his forte. Transition is certainly one thing Beethoven couldn't pull off convincingly. The going from one emotion to another becomes very schizophrenic, as in the dungeoun scene.

Steef: I would rather say that we as artists can only benefit from having a kind and caring attitude towards the "world" or the "other". We should wish to understand, not only to be understood. Our shortcomings as people are almost always artistically evident on some level. And as composers, I think it our responsibility to be generous and patient with musicians, as we are "in it together", fighting for the same cause (which is good music). And I've always found that the most accomplished artists I have met (and in some cases known), have been the most humble.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,070]

I happen to believe that what I wrote in my last post is true, and can see only benefits to this belief.

Williams is humble and respectful, not only towards musicians and directors, but towards the human drama that he scores. This is why he captures emotion so well, and so completely.

This is also why Herrmann couldn't score "love"  except from a very particular point of view. And why Wagner's characters never seem like real, living beings, and Mozart's do, even though Mozart's language is vastly more stylized. And it is why Beethoven couldn't write opera to save his life!

So what you are basically saying is that nice people make for better artists?

That is a rather interesting point of view.

Any art is based upon the artist's personality.

It doesn't mean a better artist as Marcus is putting it, but a different one.

[pi 0]

You must be pretty bold and or stupid to be criticizing Beethoven.

And wasn't Beethoven perhaps the roughest and most ruthless of all musicians? His music turned out pretty ok.

[publicist 4,643]

Williams' politeness and decency prove him to be so much more of a man than those of his colleagues who fail to control themselves. I mean, Herrmann was a wonderful composer, but his attitude held him back, not only professionally, but artistically. Williams is a gentleman, and his art proves it. We are what we write, and write what we are.

That's bold, really.

I mean, let me contradict it with this thesis: Williams is an opportunist, who gets all the big gigs because he never locked horns with anyone. It shows in his music, which is tasteful and well-arranged, but lacks style.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I agree with you to some extent, but there is definstly a John Williams style.

[A24 4,367]

What do you mean Williams has no distinctive style? There was a time I could recognize him without any foreknowledge that he scored the film.

Alex

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

You still can, but in a slightly less positive way.

[pi 0]

Williams pisses away better themes then all but 99 percent of composers ever write. He has style - its called awesomeness.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

The old cliche utterence of a John Williams fanboy geek.

Even Roald has more sense then that!

[pi 0]

Yeh thats right homies.

Listen to track 12 first 30 seconds of Phantom Menace - he just pissed that awesome theme away. Most composers would die to come up with something like that.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

What version?

The OST, the Phamtom Menace Ultimate Edition or the Elvisjones Bootleg?

[pi 0]

Original CD, when anakin leaving on his little space fighter thingy. Also you are the pan is a good example of a 1 cue dynamite theme. There are dozens more

[Marcus 390]

I am sure I am both bold and stupid, but my opinions are nevertheless well informed. Beethoven's ruthlessness towards musicians is also evident from his terrible orchestrations and atrocious vocal writing! By the same token, Williams' respectfulness is very clear in his grateful and graceful and brilliant writing.

as for style, well, I dare anyone to name a living composer with a more immediately recognizable style than Williams.

We should really stop endorsing the myths of misunderstood geniuses and tyrrannical artists; they're false, and very stupid at best, and at worst, harmful. They mustn't be perpetuated!

P.S.: I am not alone in my criticisms of Beethoven: Similar views have been voiced by Jerry Goldsmith, Francis Poulenc, Frederic Chopin and Maurice Ravel, among others.

Again, as a craftsman, I'm addressing technique, not style.

And, again: A great artist can only become greater for showing a kind interest rather than contempt for the world!

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I am sure I am both bold and stupid, but my opinions are nevertheless well informed. Beethoven's ruthlessness towards musicians is also evident from his terrible orchestrations and atrocious vocal writing! By the same token, Williams' respectfulness is very clear in his grateful and graceful and brilliant writing.

With all due respect.

You seem to be talking with the end I usually point at the toilet bowl.

Good manners and respectfullness make for "middle of the road", and compromise.

Not things I particulary wish to see in any artform.

At his worst, Williams is like Phil Collins, pleasant, terribly nice, terribly boring.

At his best Herrmann is like Sid Vicious, heartstopping music make by a man on a druginduced suicide mission to hell, while fucking anything with a skirt.