How Does John Williams do it??

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

I think that is true, but it's something more composers have said. If you have to actually notate things, it forces you to think before you jot something down, rather than just trying a bunch of things (like Miguel said, it's the same when doing a painting or a drawing).

Doesn't Michael Kahn still edit on a Moviola, to force himself to think about his splices before executing them?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Spielberg and his crew are a bunch of ludites, aren't they?

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

Yes. Yes they are.

And Spielberg refuses to shoot Indy IV digitally. The Neanderthal!

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

So far he hasn't shot it on film either....

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

Good!

Anyway, I think the whole digital vs. "analog" composing is sort of a different discussion.

But one of the great advantages of full orchestral (well, synthesized orchestra, but still) mock-ups vs. a piano rendition, is that it's more convenient in the collaboration with the director. It's an easier way for the composer to communicate his ideas to the director, and it gives a better image of where the score is going. Otherwise, it requires a bit more trust. Of course, one would prefer to pick a composer (or any other collaborator) that one is comfortable with and that you have trust in, but communication is also an important part of collaboration, and fuller mock-ups provide more information.

[Miguel Andrade 1,263]

Inborn talent, as is being put, is nothing more than a natural predespostion for some thing. Is like if one is born with a "talent", so to speak, for music, it make it easier for him to be a good musician, yet, in the end, without very hard work is stuff may be plain s**t!

And the oposite may also be true. I'll agree that someone without this "talent" will hardlly achieve the greatness of a Mozart. But if sume little boy genious, whose talent is discovered, is not properly trained, educated, if he lacks the ahrd work much in need, we will surelly won't be a Mozart eihter.

McCartney writes great pop songs, sure he does. And he also works hard, of course. Luck may let you have a few big hits -- mainly with the help of the marketing machine of today -- but it won't take you that far.

And while I suport the use of technology, and use it myself, I still find that old fashion work -- like the way Williams works -- produces better results.

And I was already raised in a time when technology took precedence. But from my own experience, "drawing" (mentally that is) in the shower, just like Joel, thinking all the time in the design problems, before actually sittng in front of the computer, will bring you teh answer.

Good!

Anyway, I think the whole digital vs. "analog" composing is sort of a different discussion.

But one of the great advantages of full orchestral (well, synthesized orchestra, but still) mock-ups vs. a piano rendition, is that it's more convenient in the collaboration with the director. It's an easier way for the composer to communicate his ideas to the director, and it gives a better image of where the score is going. Otherwise, it requires a bit more trust. Of course, one would prefer to pick a composer (or any other collaborator) that one is comfortable with and that you have trust in, but communication is also an important part of collaboration, and fuller mock-ups provide more information.

I understand your point. And I eventually have to agree, as most directors aren't that musical...

But I'm not sure if in the end that is a real plus.

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

Musicwise, it's debatable, but I think it helps in the collaboration, certainly in communicating ideas.

And an orchestrated mock-up can be a very well thought out piece too.

[Miguel Andrade 1,263]

Musicwise, it's debatable, but I think it helps in the collaboration, certainly in communicating ideas.

And an orchestrated mock-up can be a very well thought out piece too.

in the old days, they would get a smaller orchestra and record a few themes to show how the whole thing would sound... At least it was a more closer version, as oposite to sinths, which are great machines, very cost effective, but really can't reproduce a orchestra in all is splendour!

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

That's a great way too.

Still, I've got to say, the demo version of The Egg Travels (Dinosaur) sounds amazing.

[John McClane 1]

Which means I can play guitar, but even if I play and practice 25 hours a day, I'll never be as good as Jimi Hendrix.

I think you overestimate how good Hendrix is.

What's wrong with the absolute guitar god, the left-handed man who used to play a right-handed guitar, when guitar for left-handed people didn't exist yet?

Now go and play your guitar with your teeth, and set it on fire! Consider it your punishment, blasphemer!

[nightscape94 965]

...and set it on fire!

And you call me a blasphemer?!

Tim

[John McClane 1]

Would you prefer "...and set yourself on fire!" maybe?

[Luke Skywalker 1,796]

And Spielberg refuses to shoot Indy IV digitally. The Neanderthal!

I could swear that the last reports on this matter said Lucas had finally convinced Spielberg.

[Marcus 390]

I certainly hope not! Hooray for Luddites everywhere! Arts&Crafts forever!

[Genius_Gone_Insane 5]

Is this a Nature vs. Nurture discussion?

[futuremartymcfly 0]

seems so, except without any discussion of genetics

[pi 0]

Personally I find that people who do not have the abilities call it talent and those who do call it hard work.

[nightscape94 965]

I didn't want to start a new thread for this, but does anyone own this book? I really just want to know what the John Williams forward is like...

Tim

[Miguel Andrade 1,263]

Would love to get this book... or at least the foreword ;-)

[Damo 0]

Would love to get this book... or at least the foreword ;-)

Sound interesting to read.

[Ollie 1,059]

Height is no longer an excuse - take Iverson. If you practice for 10 hours a day and still suck and something its because you are a bad practicer.

Don't forget Iverson's attitude about practice several years ago.

That's why he'll be just known as someone who jacks up a ton of shots, scores alot but never accomplishes anything in his career.

The MVP he won will be the only high point of his career, unless in his final years he signs on with a contender as a role player.

[John McClane 1]

Iverson has the potential to be good, but has a bad attitude, he's an asshole.

The only player who technically and mentally could be near Michael Jordan is Kobe Bryant. He's thereal leader of his (lame) team, aone of those rare players who can win a game on their own, facing any opponent.

But no one will be like Mike. Never!

Mirko - who must have confused this thread with the "How Does Michael Jordan do it??" one.

[ChrisAfonso 186]

I browsed through "On the track" at the local library once... always wanted to borrow it sometime to read it thoroughyl, but it's a very big, very heavy book, and I never had enough place in my backpack/wanted to carry such a heavy thing around.

I remember the foreword as interesting, but not saying much that one doesn#'t already know.

[Frosty 0]

"I've heard some say that music writes itself, but I'm skeptical. My guess is, creative people are reluctant to admit they suffer in the process of creation. But suffering is an inescapable part of the process" --Jerry Goldsmith

There is a need for a natural "raw" talent. But there should also be 'craft'. In my experience, you can have all the natural talent in exsistance, but without craft, it becomes a jumble of ideas and poor quality music. There is composer I know who oozes music out of his pores and gets an incredible amount of music written, but his craft is crap because he doen't take the time to whittle down his ideas into a cohesive whole, his orchestrations are lousy and soon his music starts to sound identical. He is addicted to his synth and computer set-up. It is a syndrome I call "MIDI-itis". He thinks what will sound good on his computer will sound good in the concert hall. Not so.

You need "craft" to be a good composer and craft can be taught. You need to be able to work past the notes. I know composers who work for 4 hours a day (not film composers) and still can't write an interesting piece to save their ass, whereas other composers can work one day a week and write a brilliant piece of music. I don't necessarily believe in writers block because my way of thinking says that the music isn't ready to be written yet. It will happen.

Craft is the key. It can help you out of any problem and actually frees up your mind to find more ideas. Craft can take the form of variation on a theme, breaking themes into smaller pieces, "developing variations", modes of variation(augmentation, diminution, retrograde, etc.) good voice leading, balance in orchestrations, simple harmonic movements, harmonic voicings, whittling ideas down into usable portions, self editing, finding a form...

Always write!!! Write every day. Starvisky would write every day, even if it was something simple as putting an accent mark on a note. Think through the piece. When I met John Corigliano, he said a good way to start a piece is to write a story about the piece you are going to compose, then you have an outline. From there, you need to take two views on a piece, a "micro" view and a "macro" view. The "micro" view is the part you are currently writing, the notes you are putting on the page immediately. Then you zoom out to the "macro" view and see how the part you are working on conforms to the overall scope or "story" of the piece, and change what you think is necessay. It is all changeable.

Frosty

[Damo 0]

What his process from start to finish? Especially when it comes to his orchestrations. I managed to get the book called "On The Track" which is really good. I got heaps of excerpts of orchestral film score in it. I know for a fact that John Williams has someone or a few people to orchestrate his score. They don't even tell in publicity who orchestrate John Williams orchestral film score considering his film scores are very well orchestrated compared to other film composer. John Williams keeps his secrets on "how does he do it." Even though he does tell people the obvious things such as well you look at a scene and try to find the right tempo or emotional or rhythm that is happening in that particuliar scene.

[Marcus 390]

Yes, Williams has a large so-called "scoring crew". But they are only blowing up his very detailed sketches to full size scores, and aren't (as ageneral rule ) adding anything, and certainly not without his supervision.

Williams is ALL Williams.

[Damo 0]

So pretty much John Williams orchestrate his own music as he compose it. That's so cool.

[Marcus 390]

Yes, and he is probably one of the only composers left in Hollywood to be doing this. Mostly because he is a better and more experienced orchestrator than the other orchestrators working in the industry today. Occasionally, cues (especially smaller cues) will bypass a scoring crew entirely, and parts will simply be extracted from Williams' sketches.

[Miguel Andrade 1,263]

Funny you find Williams to keep his secrets... I've always found that he comes pretty open when explaining how things work. You should try to get a copy of the BBC 1980 special... Your doubts would vanish for ever.

[skyy38 21]

What fascinates he is how JW still writes with pencil & paper and keeps all of the orchestration in his mind. I mean how can you possibly 'imagine' 10 different instruments playing at once?

Actually it's easier if you think of the orchestra as 4 sections-Strings,Brass,Woodwinds and Percussion.

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

But then there's counterpoint. How he can hear so many different things is amazing.

[nightscape94 965]

Anyone watching the All-star baseball game, they're playing the Star Wars march in the background, at the stadium. I have no idea why.

EDIT: Nevermind, they stopped

Tim

[JoeinAR 1,949]

here is how he does it.

Put one foot in front of the other

And soon you’ll be walking cross the floor

Put one foot in front of the other

And soon you’ll be walking out the door

You never will get where you’re going

If you never get up on your feet

Come on, there’s a good tail wind blowing

A fast walking man is hard to beat

Put one foot in front of the other

And soon you’ll be walking cross the floor

Put one foot in front of the other

And soon you’ll be walking out the door

If you want to change your direction

If your time of life is at hand

Well don’t be the rule be the exception

A good way to start is to stand

Put one foot in front of the other

And soon you’ll be walking cross the floor

Put one foot in front of the other

And soon you’ll be walking out the door

If I want to change the reflection

I see in the mirror each morn

You mean that it's just my election

To vote for a chance to be reborn

[Frosty 0]

Yes good point. Yet because of this Williams has the best ears in the business.  Compare William's ears to some of the younger composers who have to hit "play" to hear if something works - there is no contest, and it shows in his music - everything is well thought out and organized.

Goldsmith hit play when the technology came around.

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

You know, some people can hear what they want it to sound like in their head, and hitting play helps them determine if it's right or not. It's years of experience and practice that give Williams the ability to do so without aural aide (though most likely he still uses the piano for that exact purpose), not a lack of technology.

[skyy38 21]

But then there's counterpoint. How he can hear so many different things is amazing.

Really,not so many different things-it just sounds like it.

Case in point: Star Wars,where the Millenium Falcon is getting pulled into the Death Star.

You've got Strings,Brass,Woodwinds and Percussion.4 sections right there.

Now,when you start to break it down you've got Violins,Violas,Trumpets,Trombones,Piccolos,Flutes(?) and Timpani.

But still,it's only 4 sections....

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

I'm talking pure melody and counterpoint here, not orchestration.

[AI 0]

I like Joe's explanation...

Put one foot in front of the other

[Ollie 1,059]

[skyy38 21]

I'm talking pure melody and counterpoint here, not orchestration.

It's ALL part of the big picture and really,not near as difficult as you might envision it to be.

[ChrisAfonso 186]

But then there's counterpoint. How he can hear so many different things is amazing.

Really,not so many different things-it just sounds like it.

Case in point: Star Wars,where the Millenium Falcon is getting pulled into the Death Star.

You've got Strings,Brass,Woodwinds and Percussion.4 sections right there.

Now,when you start to break it down you've got Violins,Violas,Trumpets,Trombones,Piccolos,Flutes(?) and Timpani.

But still,it's only 4 sections....

That's a bad example, cause the major part of that cue is homophonic, almost organ-like, and the climax is just a "tutti brass" theme over an unisono accompanying ostinato...

[skyy38 21]

But then there's counterpoint. How he can hear so many different things is amazing.

Really,not so many different things-it just sounds like it.

Case in point: Star Wars,where the Millenium Falcon is getting pulled into the Death Star.

You've got Strings,Brass,Woodwinds and Percussion.4 sections right there.

Now,when you start to break it down you've got Violins,Violas,Trumpets,Trombones,Piccolos,Flutes(?) and Timpani.

But still,it's only 4 sections....

That's a bad example, cause the major part of that cue is homophonic, almost organ-like, and the climax is just a "tutti brass" theme over an unisono accompanying ostinato...

You mind 'splaining that in *english* Chris?

It's a good thing I was able to figure that out anyways...

[skyy38 21]

But then there's counterpoint. How he can hear so many different things is amazing.

Really,not so many different things-it just sounds like it.

Case in point: Star Wars,where the Millenium Falcon is getting pulled into the Death Star.

You've got Strings,Brass,Woodwinds and Percussion.4 sections right there.

Now,when you start to break it down you've got Violins,Violas,Trumpets,Trombones,Piccolos,Flutes(?) and Timpani.

But still,it's only 4 sections....

That's a bad example, cause the major part of that cue is homophonic, almost organ-like, and the climax is just a "tutti brass" theme over an unisono accompanying ostinato...

Yeah, what YOU said.

I think it's a very GOOD example, IMHO.