Why can't other composers write like JW?

[Ollie 1,059]

[http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/Cinema/...l_interview.htm

Question: Do you do your own orchestrations?

GoldsmithJ: I do very complete sketches that are completed by my orchestrators.

I see nothing vague about it. He does complete sketches and much like Williams there probably isn't much for the orchestrators to do but copy.

In the past he's given credit, especially on The Omen for the choral work, if he's had help with the orchestrations.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

he says that his detailed orchestrations are completed by the orchestrators.

Williams says the orchestrators mostly transcript what he has written.

There is a very small difference, but i think Williams does more work.

Anyway i must concede that doing all your orchestrations doesnt mind you compose better. Howard shore did them and well, LOTR is not a variations/orchestrations fest, IMO...

[Ollie 1,059]

If you're saying LOTR's orchestrtions are weak then I think you have no idea as to what you are talking about.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

In the 1st two movies, there are very light changes in the presentations of the main theme.

the fellowship theme for example. Or Isengards or Mordor.

I find it 'lazy'.

[Ollie 1,059]

:?

[pi 0]

They are not weak, they are solid - just VERY borring and safe.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

If you think there's no variation between the orchestrations for the Shire music to the Isengard music to the Lothlorien music...you're just plain weird. The variation (both internally within each score and as a cohesive whole of all 3) in orchestration only increases more and more with the 2nd and 3rd films.

[pi 0]

Its the same thing every time. All the doubles are the same. Don't confuse orchestration with writing. Horns 3-4-5 ALWAYS!!!! playing a triad. horns 1-2 play lead. Same voicings. Trumpets in 5ths etc... Same stuff. Same tempos - to criticize his writing a bit. I like it, but its great with the movie and very plain on the CD. Goldmsith would laugh at his lack of orchestration ideas.

[A24 4,338]

Some would claim Williams writes better than the other composers because he studied more. :?

[Marcus 390]

Exactly!

Shore's orchestrations are indeed weak, and don't work at all live. They sound muddy, and the brass writing is both clumsy and ineffective, and the horn writing is consistently very high and cumbersome, not to say boring. The woodwind writing is similarly boring, and string players in general LOATH the music,- it is even worse string writing than Bruckner! (Who can write beautiful music, but writes as if the orchestra was an organ)

From a strict orchestrational point of view, there is every reason to claim that Shore is a relatively poor orchestrator. Then again, he hasn't had all that much experience writing for orchestra, and his classical training and knowledge wasn't the most thorough and isn't the best...

Williams writes better than other present film composers becuse he comes out of a different tradition, and knows his craft deeply. And most importantly: He has practiced this craft consistently for more than 50-60 years! I really don't know of many musicians in any field today with a more solid understanding of what our classical heritage is, and not simply in an academic way. Williams is the consummate craftsman, and has both more chops, more grace and more wisdom than his so-called peers.

[A24 4,338]

But ... didn't James Horner receive the highest degree one can achieve? I mean ... listen to Horner and then Williams ... what a world of difference! Horner's hasn't got 10% of Williams complexity.

[Marcus 390]

I believe Horner's degree is the same as mine. A degree is something you receive early in life (in your twenties or thirties, usually, if we're talking about a Master's or a Doctorate). The bulk of experience, and the most important studying happens after that. Also: I don't think any conservatory today will offer the kind of training Mario Castelnuovo-Tedesco offered. The best training for a composer is 1-on-1 training with a master. This has always been true. We need apprenticeship more than degrees. (I have had the greatest good fortune to receive both.)

[Ollie 1,059]

But ... didn't James Horner receive the highest degree one can achieve? I mean ... listen to Horner and then Williams ... what a world of difference! Horner's hasn't got 10% of Williams complexity.

Just because you earn a degree doesn't mean you are good at what you do. It just means you did enough to pass....

[Marcus 390]

Very true.

And more and more so, unfortunately...

[A24 4,338]

But ... didn't James Horner receive the highest degree one can achieve? I mean ... listen to Horner and then Williams ... what a world of difference! Horner's hasn't got 10% of Williams complexity.

Just because you earn a degree doesn't mean you are good at what you do. It just means you did enough to pass....

But Horner has, besides his master's degree, also earned a Ph.D. in music composition and theory. :?

[Marcus 390]

Which really isn't worth all that much... The kind of craft Williams possesses can only be hinted at at conservatory/university level. It is still a good place to start, but amounts to very little next to a truly thorough study of the repertoire and its technical evolution. Again, a Ph.D. is largely dependent on the student's abilities and the training of his professor. Now, a Ph.D. under Professor John Williams would be something! Conservatories today are lazy, as far as practical requirements for composers are concerned...

[pi 0]

I think the more you study old school classical music the less imaginative you become. I have heard so many young composers with nothing to say because they have studied to much, they are too aware of everything and they are afraid to take chances or think outside the box. Williams says he studied a lot of modern composers, but he is one of the exceptions. look at the majority of today big composers, they aren't packing degrees in music theory, they are rockers transformed. They use their ears and are not cowards. Degrees mean nothing. You can learn composition by yourself. You have all the teachers you need on the shelves at the old library.

[Henry B 50]

Link please?

If you listen to Goldsmith then you will hear that the orchestrations do not suddenly chance if they are done by Alexander Courage instead of Arthur Morton.

Nor was there any noticeble change when Mark McKenzie started doing them.

I hope this is not a hoax interview... or an aprils fool...

http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/Cinema/...l_interview.htm

Question: Do you do your own orchestrations?

GoldsmithJ: I do very complete sketches that are completed by my orchestrators.

Heh. That interview was more interesting than every Williams interview I've read combined.

[Red 75]

Williams has a gift and uses it extremely well.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Used.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

Music at its core is just math...you don't need formal training to do math, you can sit there with absolutely no prior knowledge and a bunch of rocks and see that 2 + 2 rocks = 4 rocks, and if you put your heart and mind to it eventually step by step build up to doing calculus and beyond. Music is the same. The fact that a good bit of the world has adopted the current method of creating music doesn't mean that it is the absolute best way. 2 + 2 isn't the only way to get 4, and that's just in base 2.

As with math, some people grow to be more apt with it over other things depending on how their minds are stimulated in youth and their own interests, other's are quite simply born with that aptness intact.

[Red 75]

Do you mean that Williams has exhausted his talent, Stefancos?

[Jeshopk 8]

Stefancos only likes Williams older style.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Do you mean that Williams has exhausted his talent, Stefancos?

Either that, or he's saving it...

But for what?

[Ollie 1,059]

Indiana Jones IV......

[pi 0]

music isn't just math, writing it down is the EASY part. Thinking of it is the hardest part. The writing it down part is the part you dont even think about while you are doing it.

[Marcus 390]

Please, people...

There is so much more depth and profundity to music than mere math. There's culture, for one thing, and drama, and ultimately life and experience...

Pi, most great composers today aren't "rockers transformed", and being classically trained doesn't preclude you from being imaginative and artistically corageous. But having little knowledge and insisting on ignorance will surely slow you down.

Some of us here have actually devoted most of our lives to studying music. (As has John Williams!)

I feel I have spent enough time in academia to allow myself to criticize it. I am an insider, and so are many others here. But if you don't have that perspective, it is really arrogant to take such liberties!

True revolution always comes from knowledge! Being a "rocker transformed" will not give you the chops to write "Shark Cage Fugue" or A.I.'s "Hide and Seek"...

We should study our history and tradition (going as far back in time as we can and up till the most recent of yesterdays), and only with a proper understanding will we discover our greatest potential. You must go to school in order to leave it. That which has no past cannot have a future.

Blumenkohl: Your analogy is correct. The only problem is, it took us a good few thousand years to develop western classical music. I'd rather go with those milennia than stroll down to the beach and begin an ancient calculus...

Marcus, who uses his ears more and better than ever, despite his education...

P.S. Williams is as good as he ever was.

[pi 0]

Marcus,

Most working film composers are rockers, thats just a fact. Newton Howard, Elfmann, Media Ventures people, etc... Horner, Williams, Silvestri are the alive exceptions. I happen to have your prized education too, i am just not as pompus about bragging about it as you are. Book learning doesn't make you a great film composer, thats why there are so many old farts teaching at conservatory because they didnt have the career they dreamed of, then they develop this attitude to put down the working people because they are not as educated. Well guess what!?! They are just jealous! I am not saying that education doesn't help. Try getting a computer and learning to write music the modern way, and you will see when you can just hit the play button to check your work you don't need to be a theory expert. You just hire people to fix you. Try looking at the Batman theme midi sketch by elfman. I mean what he played into his keyboards to demo it. It is pure shit. It was transformed into something brilliant, yet it was faithful to his real idea. The writing of the masters does not come to play anymore, listen to xmen 3 ( a typical modern score). Hear any beethoven?? Hear any Elgar? Hear any stravinksy? All i here is boom boom boom , brass hits, string hits, anvils, snyths. You don't need education to write this. And the weird thing? The music to x men 3 has been heard by more people then any piece written by any classical composer of the last 20 years! Now i have met john powell and I am sure he has some 'education', he is a smart man. Yet does he need that eduaction to work his snyths? no.

Marcus, your theories were correct if this was 30 years ago, times have changed.

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

P.S. Williams is as good as he ever was.

His peak has long gone. But he's still very, very good, and easily one of the top composers today.

[Ollie 1,059]

He sure is.

[nightscape94 965]

The writing of the masters does not come to play anymore, listen to xmen 3 ( a typical modern score). Hear any beethoven?? Hear any Elgar?  Hear any stravinksy? All i here is boom boom boom , brass hits, string hits, anvils, snyths. You don't need education to write this.

Pi, I understand what you're getting at, but I think we're all on the same page. What is produced most of the time is passable music, or ultra-simplified. It gets by alright, serves its function, but it's still not what I'd consider "brilliant". The writing of the masters, shamefully, doesn't come into play a lot of the time, but you also can't compare 95% of it to the work of the masters either.

Tim

[pi 0]

The writing of the masters does not come to play anymore, listen to xmen 3 ( a typical modern score). Hear any beethoven?? Hear any Elgar?  Hear any stravinksy? All i here is boom boom boom , brass hits, string hits, anvils, snyths. You don't need education to write this.

Pi, I understand what you're getting at, but I think we're all on the same page. What is produced most of the time is passable music, or ultra-simplified. It gets by alright, serves its function, but it's still not what I'd consider "brilliant". The writing of the masters, shamefully, doesn't come into play a lot of the time, but you also can't compare 95% of it to the work of the masters either.

Tim

Yes well done. The masters are just that, masters. I am just defending the majority of film composers from Marcus' elitest rath. The fact that these guys write anything with the time deadlines and coporate pressure they are under is a feat.

[nightscape94 965]

True. But it also further proves how unique Williams is, because he is not only able to meet those deadlines, but also write music that is comparable to the names you mentioned earlier.

Tim

[pi 0]

Yeh totally. That is why i am on this site!

[nightscape94 965]

[Marcus 390]

Pi,

I'm sorry for coming across as "elitist", "pompous" and "bragging". And I never meant to doubt your education, although I find it difficult to imagine that you have arrived at the opinions you have, or rather, your preferred method of conveying them, without somehow foregoing a few extra levels of contemplation.

You seem to have the idea that being learned equals being a snob or an elitist, and that this will, in turn, reduce composers to merely emulaters of past music, or nonsensical theorists. Where did you study? You seem to me to be an educated pianist with an interest in composition, which is in itself a great thing (hey, I'm not even a good pianist!), but you seem to have little understanding of, or appreciation for, the level of craftsmanship Williams represents, as opposed to, say, Danny Elfman (who I think used to be an interesting composer). Perhaps I am old-fashioned, but I think it is a composer's responsibility to be as good a performer of his craft, as I imagine you would like to be as a pianist.

And I think that the best composers today usually aren't found in Hollywood, and usually aren't found working as professors at academies and conservatories either, but rather as busy professionals writing for all kinds of media, be it concert music or other.

It isn't my intention to attack you, pi, but I find your outlook at times seemingly uninformed, and I'm not sure whether I'd so quickly deem others pompous...

But I don't wish to get more personal than I have to, and chances are, I've gone too far already. Forgive me. On the other hand, if we weren't separated by keyboards and the internet, I'm sure we would quite possibly see eye to eye quite easily, as dedicated musicians, and would probably realise that we really are on the same page, more or less...

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

You seem to have the idea that being learned equals being a snob or an elitist, and that this will, in turn, reduce composers to merely emulaters of past music, or nonsensical theorists.

I have found that people like yourself spend far to much time analysing music instead of listening to it.

[Marcus 390]

Oh, that may be so, that may indeed be so... But most of the time is frankly spent WRITING it!

[pi 0]

here is the thing. I do not care about modern classical music, just film music. I am just saying education is not everything. Look at the beatles, best songwriters of the last 50 years, eduction?? No, not at school. But hours by themselvs. thats all it takes man. If you want to test my knowledge of john williams etc craftmanship go ahead. I appreciate it so much, he is amazing. So is goldsmith. I just also admire the untrained composers also for their great work.

[Marcus 390]

Dear Pi! I don't wish to test your knowledge of anything...

I am a classically trained composer who has grown up listening to and loving John Williams' music, and who has a great interest in film music as a place where the romantic tradition has survived in exile, and as a fantastic medium with wondrous potential for composers of all traditions. But I'm looking at this from a composer's perspective, and, again- pardon me for sounding elitist and pompous and bragging- very little contemporary film music other than the work of John Williams impresses me. Or moves me, which is more important.

And Goldsmith sure was amazing...

If you ever wish to listen to where I'm coming from, musically, you can check out my MySpace profile (Marcus Paus).

P.S. No one, no matter how inspired, could possibly arrive at Williams' results without the kind of training I'm addressing. Synths and good midi-mock-ups and whatnot cannot replace craftsmanship, and Danny Elfman's music doesn't "benefit" from his lack of training...

P.P.S. Obviously, most of the training will be the hours we spend by ourselves working, listening, digesting...But the more knowledge we have, the deeper will our understanding be of that which we immerse ourselves in.

[pi 0]

The forgotten thing is that writing music is only half the battle, getting it to work with the picture is the other half and the only reason it is there at all. Thats why i can admire really simple pieces which work really well with the film. i think danny elfman does this just superbly! If they sound great and are complex and stuff thats totally bonus!

[Marcus 390]

True, very true...

But film music can work on so many levels, and I think the general tendency is either to go with the visuals on a surface-level, being part of the viscerality of the film, and the other is a more generic "contemplative" approach, which Thomas Newman sometimes does very well.

But I think Williams is clearly in a league of his own here (presently). Goldsmith and Herrmann are two other giants, as far as adding true depth and integrity to the films they scored.

And I can certainly appreciate simplicity, and will generally opt for it. (Complexity is most often false.)

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Howard Shore is also a master at suggesting that what is not immidiatly visible on screen, adding to it instead of duplicating what is already plainly visible.

[Romão 2,274]

Silence of the Lambs is a very strong testament of his talent you mentioned.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

Goldsmith and Herrmann are two other giants, as far as adding true depth and integrity to the films they scored.

Herrmann and Goldsmith understood a very crucial element to writing film scores: that silence is just as important a sound as any other the orchestra can make. In that way...when their scores started to play again...it hit you and it made an impact on your perception of the story. They were also very active parts of the implementation of their music in the final cut of the film. And guess what, it worked.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

Silence of the Lambs is a very strong testament of his talent you mentioned.

But is LOTR?

Some people complain its too sentimental in sentimental scenes and so.

But anyway i was saying that the themes in their most part, have the same written notes and instruments (and almost could past for same performance), not that all the themes sound alike!

His peak has long gone. But he's still very, very good, and easily one of the top composers today.

If people is going to say Williams peak is long gone, please give the man some dignity and also say that he is very good and is THE top composer alive. Without doubt. Other composers may write one or two better scores from time to time, but that is not match to Williams consistent quality.

And sorry, i think i have never heard 'Goldsmith peak was long gone in his late years' by Goldsmith's fans. And if Goldsmith didnt (and i have heard his late music) Williams still hasnt.

[Jacck 23]

Used.

Open Your Mind...

The Mutant - Jerry Goldsmith

[skyy38 21]

I'm going to touch on something which I feel is all but ignored by the musical community at large.

The man is a master of textures.

Music is more than just mere notes or meter or feel.How you handle your textures is every bit as important as the first three.How are you going to handle your sounds,how are you going to combine them for the greatest or,(sometimes,)least impact?How are you going to use your textures to compliment not only the visual aspect,but the aural aspect(sound FX) as well?

A very good example of this can be heard in the first 5 seconds of

"The Battle Of Yavin".When heard with the rest of the films soundtrack,it combines seamlessly to create a feeling of airiness,of flight.When heard by itself,it's almost too simple to be there-You actually expect to hear a lot more than just high strings,cello,french horn and harp.A lesser composer would have tried to stack everything they could on the track in order to suggest "airiness" but Mr. Williams truly compliments the scene by adding *only* what is essential,which is another hallmark of the skilled composer.In this instance it is more than just "music" it is true underscore.

John Williams might be known mostly for his sweeping romantic themes,but I think I admire him more for stuff that you can't hum so easily after exiting the theater.The first shot of the X-Wings in space,as they approach the Death Star(original NOT special edition has the greater impact)is just madness.Where did Williams come up with what he came up with?And why? And do you think he could *truly* and fully explain just what his motivations were?Or was he just going with his musical gut? I wish I could ask him.

[Red 75]

Wow, your certainly a big fan.

[Ollie 1,059]

Well this is a John Williams fan site.