Grade Superman Returns by John Ottman

[nightscape94 965]

Ottman has said already that he wanted to simply integrate the old themes into the new score as though they were his own, as any composer would normally do in sequel movies, as Williams as done in the Star Wars films. They're hinted at, they are done differently....that's why they are variations or references and not note-for-note, chord-for-chord renditions. If he did that then people would probably chastise him for unoriginality.

Tim

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

People were gonna chastice him no matter what....

[Ollie 1,059]

Especially here.....

[BurgaFlippinMan 7]

The "old-fashioned" love theme (Burgaflippinman) happens to be one the most uplifting, romantic, and fantastic (as in, full of fantasy) pieces Williams ever composed.  And it's not called CYRMM.  That would be the nauseating vocal rendition.

Erm, where do I come into this?

[Figo 2]

Sorry, Burga. It was TheRuleOfThirds I meant.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

the love theme is John's finest work period, end of discussion

[Lurker 5]

the love theme is John's finest work period, end of discussion

John who? Ottman or Williams?

Neil

[Kendal_Ozzel 36]

That's funny that Ottman was using the themes from memory, because I don't remember the love theme sounding like crap before.

[Lurker 5]

He must have a crappy memory.

Neil

[John Crichton 4]

After seeing the movie, I'll give it a solid B. There are three main gripes, other than the poor performance of the Main Title, that keep me from rating it higher:

- The poor use of the Kent theme, both in orchestration and placement.

- Too many statements of the fanfare that were exactly the same.

- The use of the ostinato part of the March. For Williams it was simply a build up to statements of the March, but Ottman uses it as a theme in its own right, to ill effect IMO.

Other than that I thought it was a solid effort with mostly good incorporation of Williams' material.

[Kendal_Ozzel 36]

The use of the ostinato part of the March. For Williams it was simply a build up to statements of the March, but Ottman uses it as a theme in its own right, to ill effect IMO.

Agreed. I kept waiting for the theme to kick in, but the music just stayed stuck in the build-up.

[CheeHoe 0]

In my opinion, the ending of Superman March should never be used as a climax of action scenes. But it appeared twice in the inappropriate moment.

When I first listened to the new performance of Main Title, I thought it was quite good. But somehow the energy was lost in the theater. To me, it was a very generic performance, especially when end credit roll up.

(BTW, after the Main Title ended, I hear nothing but the end credit was still rolling. Is it really no music to fill up there?)

Oh, did you hear Elfman's Hulk theme there after Kryptonite island was build?

And, changing the chord of Love Theme (to simple chords) is like what Don Davis did to the theme in Jurrasic Park III - WRONG!

Overall a rather entertaining movie, but...

John Ottman failed.

[Henry B 50]

And, changing the chord of Love Theme (to simple chords) is like what Don Davis did to the theme in Jurrasic Park III - WRONG!

It's I-V... instead of I-II... That change makes it "simple"? I didn't like the change at first, but I noticed it makes the resolution of the melody and the next chord (IV) more satisfying. Not to say that it's better than Williams's original orchestration, just different.

[Ollie 1,059]

It just doesn't sound right.

[JMan 0]

Ottman has said already that he wanted to simply integrate the old themes into the new score as though they were his own, as any composer would normally do in sequel movies, as Williams as done in the Star Wars films.  They're hinted at, they are done differently....that's why they are variations or references and not note-for-note, chord-for-chord renditions.  If he did that then people would probably chastise him for unoriginality.

Tim

yes.

[BurgaFlippinMan 7]

I seem to find the choir fine in the movie, but rather overused on album. Btw, what happened to the love theme blowout in Reprise/Fly Away? I dont remember hearing that in the movie.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

Ottman has said already that he wanted to simply integrate the old themes into the new score as though they were his own, as any composer would normally do in sequel movies, as Williams as done in the Star Wars films.

Tim

The difference is, Williams' SW Sequel themes are Williams'.

 They're hinted at, they are done differently....that's why they are variations or references and not note-for-note, chord-for-chord renditions.  If he did that then people would probably chastise him for unoriginality.

Mmm thats is exactly what i think of FORT and TTT, but off topic here...

[Figo 2]

- The use of the ostinato part of the March. For Williams it was simply a build up to statements of the March, but Ottman uses it as a theme in its own right, to ill effect IMO.

Imagine how much more powerful the pay-off would have been had the March been used at the end of the airplane sequence. With the images of the crowd going wild, it may have been the one scene almost worthy of the original. But perhaps such cornball rah-rah-isms and apple pie naivite are just too uncool by today's standards.

[BurgaFlippinMan 7]

- The use of the ostinato part of the March. For Williams it was simply a build up to statements of the March, but Ottman uses it as a theme in its own right, to ill effect IMO.

Imagine how much more powerful the pay-off would have been had the March been used at the end of the airplane sequence.

Exactly! I already previously lamented the use of an extended ostinato instead.

[Vaderbait1 1]

I should give it an "F" after reading some of Ottman's comments found here.

Some people are really pretentious. It IS a simple theme. It's easy to remember, and I'm sure an experienced composer who readily admits he's played the theme hundreds of times in his life might tend to consider it simple. It's not a dig at Williams' work in any way. Come off it.

[Henry B 50]

I gave this a B-. But after seeing the film, it's down to a C-. The piano music and choir is so boring, and it hurts every scene it's in. Worse, the original "Reprise" was replaced with more of this music. Underscoring the already weak final moment between Lois and Superman with tranquil choral music killed me. The love theme, as heard on the album, could have saved that.

The gang beating of Superman was very poor. The music was also mixed low in the film, and the already weak performance of the main titles, combined with the obnoxious sound effects and imagery, made the nostalgic aspect the only positive thing. When the ostinato began (due to some misunderstanding I thought I had read that this music had been replaced by an alternative cue), I was chilled, and the appearance of the title was awesome. I was thrilled that such a classic theme still had a place in modern films. However, by the time the main titles sequence ended, I was sick of it.

Another thing: "Memories" is an excellent cue. Too bad the scene is useless. And I like Lex Luthor's music when it is comical, but as a serious villain theme it just comes off as mediocre.

[BurgaFlippinMan 7]

Actually, I've always felt Luthor's theme was a bit of a dud.

Burga - who isnt bothered by the Main Titles performance as much now, and didnt mind it at all during the movie (except for the editing thing)

[Lurker 5]

However, by the time the main titles sequence ended, I was sick of it.

And when the end titles started I was so disgusted I let out a "Turn off this f'ing music!".

Neil

[Vaderbait1 1]

I really like this score, but I think it's because of Williams' themes. Ottman has shown a pattern of creating very simplistic, non-memorable themes, and if Williams hadn't already supplied the theme-work, we would have had a non-memorable score like X2. Ottman seems to think a few rising notes is the same as a theme. But overall, I liked the score, I'm just not sure which composer to congratulate.

[ST-321 4]

I gave the score a B+. I enjoyed it and the film too.

[batmanand 0]

Solid A on album - it is my favourite score of the year.

Have yet to see film.

[John Crichton 4]

it is my favourite score of the year.

Well, that ain't hard.

As for me, I still stand by my B due to my above complaints, but I am really enjoying it. Something really good will have to come along (or Williams will have to sign up for something at the end of the year) to challenge it for a favorite of the year.

Somehow I don't think POTC 2 will do that.

[Ollie 1,059]

Somehow I don't think POTC 2 will do that.  

No you're right it pretty much sucks.

[Kendal_Ozzel 36]

And when the end titles started I was so disgusted I let out a "Turn off this f'ing music!".

I had a similar experience. As the credits were rolling, my friends and I were talking, and just as I was complaining to them about the music I heard what was supposed to be the Love Theme and I shouted "HE TRIED TO FIX THE F'ING LOVE THEME!"

On that note, I have acquired the score now, and will attempt to listen to it.

Wish me luck.

[Jacck 23]

However, by the time the main titles sequence ended, I was sick of it.

And when the end titles started I was so disgusted I let out a "Turn off this f'ing music!".

Neil

Ummm.... That's just embarrasing.

[Bowie 45]

And, changing the chord of Love Theme (to simple chords) is like what Don Davis did to the theme in Jurrasic Park III - WRONG!

It's I-V... instead of I-II... That change makes it "simple"? I didn't like the change at first, but I noticed it makes the resolution of the melody and the next chord (IV) more satisfying. Not to say that it's better than Williams's original orchestration, just different.

In fact the second chord is II7, the dominant seventh chord of V ("secondary dominant"). This is a very clever chord change: it feels slightly disorienting, which reflects the unusual, whirlwind love we are witnessing because the chord is not so closely related to our perceived tonal centre (chord I, C Major). Williams does this all the time (e.g., The Imperial March minor vi chord, which unusually diminishes the tonic note by a semitone). He then settles us by coming back to the tonic chord via a IV chord (following a fairly traditional I-ii-IV-I form, and all with C in the chord). This sequence is repeated, but we are further unsettled by a bIII, or bVI/V (Eb Major in C Major) followed by a V (GM). It is also a little unsettling because the rhythm has also undergone subtle adjustments, mostly to emphasise the unusual chords, but is largely a sequence.

The rhythm so far has been made up of, in order, crotchet, dotted quaver, semiquaver, semibreve, quaver rest, quaver and dotted minim+quaver. The melody reaches a Major 10th within the first four notes, and flirts with all of the notes in between with an appealing mixture of leaps and steps. The only diatonic note it doesn't touch on is the fourth degree, but chord IV is used harmonically anyway.

The rest of the theme continues a flirtation with pairs of semiquavers, usually placing them differently in the bar (or "metrically displacing" them). There are 8 places a pair could be placed, and Williams places them here throughout the course of the full melody (everywhere except directly on beats 2, 3 and 4):

1-2-3-4-

** * * *

The leaps are suggestive of flight or lightness, the semiquavers are romantic, notes 4 and 5 are related to the Superman March (dum dadada duumm... dum, dum, dum! dum dadada duumm... DAH-da DAAAAH!!) and almost lyrically spell out "Superman".

Of course you can say that Williams "just thinks of the theme" and that it's stupid or pathetic to analyse his music, but that doesn't mean the theme is simple. Williams' mind is very intelligent and readily able to compute complex relationships whether conscious or subconscious. The theme of course starts with do-mi-so, but from then on in, I doubt another composer would have had the evidently rigorous upbringing in Classical and Romantic music (et. al.) to churn out with ease such a glorious and compelling (and equally well-orchestrated) theme. I question Ottman's compositional prowess when he (a) dismisses the theme as "simple"; and (B) thinks the theme works with a V chord. It doesn't. That's what makes the theme so grand, is its inevitability the way it written, as though no other variant would have worked at all.

Williams' variations of the theme, besides orchestrational, are few. Hardly any of them are chords based on the C Major diatonic scale (most are unusual diversions from the tonal centre to represent particularly striking plot or character developments). Otherwise, he makes variations seemingly different, where in fact they are not that different (for instance inverting the C chord to first position surrounded by other distracting orchestrations), as Williams understands the importance of the harmonic language to the melodic: they are intrinsical.

[QMM 4]

...for christ's sake

[Lurker 5]

...for Superman's sake

Neil

[Ollie 1,059]

LOL

[Henry B 50]

Jeez, Bowie, that's all incredibly well-thought out, except that Superman Returns doesn't present the same love story as Superman - The Movie. It's not supposed to be head-over-heels romantic because Lois has some serious conflicts of interest to deal with.

Here's my more theoretical idea (and I'm not saying Ottman intentionally did this): by using a seemingly dissatisfying V chord instead of the II-7, Ottman then builds to a greater musical payoff with the IV chord and that wonderful melodic quip (he kicks us out, then draws us back in).

[JMan 0]

By far, the best score of 2006.

[Seth 67]

I have to admit that I don't envy the guy. Not only was he scoring one of the most anticipated films of the year but he also had the task of owning up to Williams' themes. That said, I think he did a decent job. About the love theme-the new chord doesn't bother me, but one thing I did notice that may just be my perception-he seemed a bit hesitant about putting the beginning of the phrase that follows the first five notes (the offbeat sixteenths) on the offbeat-to me it never seemed to be sure about where it should lie. I also had a real issue with the hi-hat grooves under the Smallville theme early in the film as young Clark bounded through the corn fields-it reminded me of West Side Story. Also-did the new Superman theme (the "emotional" one) remind anyone else of the Jerry Goldsmith's "First Contact" theme from the Star Trek film of the same title? All in all, I give the score a B-.

[pi 0]

ITs funny with otmann. All the orchestrations and great sounds are there, there are just bad note choices. Its not organized and it rambles. he thinks he is so craft using the Love theme all the time in such a vague way, but he just ruined it! his music is so vague. Predictable music in the bad way.

[Ollie 1,059]

By far, the best score of 2006.

We are in for long boring year of film msuc if that's the case.

[artyjeffrey 20]

I guess Ottman has a ways to go before he becomes a household name. Check out this, an email I got from Amazon trying to get me to buy X3:

Amazon.com

While Hollywood franchises often stick to one composer as a way to establish continuity, the three X-Men movies have gone to three different musicians. And yet, the sound has remained remarkably homogenous; in other words, if you enjoyed Michael Kamen and John Ottway's scores for the first and second installments, respectively, you'll get a kick out of what John Powell has come up with for the third. Though he adopted a more contemporary, electronic-inflected sound on actioners The Bourne Identity and The Bourne Supremacy, here Powell goes for the full symphonic treatment. What's most... Read more

I have to admit that I don't envy the guy. Not only was he scoring one of the most anticipated films of the year but he also had the task of owning up to Williams' themes. That said, I think he did a decent job. About the love theme-the new chord doesn't bother me, but one thing I did notice that may just be my perception-he seemed a bit hesitant about putting the beginning of the phrase that follows the first five notes (the offbeat sixteenths) on the offbeat-to me it never seemed to be sure about where it should lie. I also had a real issue with the hi-hat grooves under the Smallville theme early in the film as young Clark bounded through the corn fields-it reminded me of West Side Story. Also-did the new Superman theme (the "emotional" one) remind anyone else of the Jerry Goldsmith's "First Contact" theme from the Star Trek film of the same title? All in all, I give the score a B-.

Over at the Jerry Goldsmith fan site they're really complaining about how many lifts there are from his Night Crossings.

[Ollie 1,059]

Actually alot o the cribbing is from Horner's score to Brainstorm.

Haven't noticed any lifts from Night Crossing.