The Themes of Howard Shore's The Lord of the Rings

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[mstrox 6,651]

Did anybody see/discuss this yet?

http://musicofmiddleearth.com/

I've been toying with this app for the past week or so and it's really very handy. Assuming you have the CRs loaded onto your device, it catalogs and plays every iteration of a theme.

While Doug's book and liner notes are the gold standard, this is probably the handiest way to ACCESS the music as a companion - and a good reason why I would rebuy Doug's book in a heartbeat as an eBook (preferably a multimedia eBook with sound samples, but I'd just take a handy Kindle PDF version).

Hopefully there will be an update in the future for The Hobbit, since I'm a lot hazier on those themes.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

That's cool!

And no, it wasn't mentioned or discussed before, as far as I know.

[Incanus 5,715]

Yeah it has not been mentioned before. Looks like quite a list.

There are links also to the original CR sites there though the Annotated Scores are not available anymore. Even though I understand they took them off the sites before the book came out the annotated scores really complemented the book with those nice little info boxes about the changes to the music and versions found on the soundtrack albums compared to the film versions etc. The book was focused entirely on the finished product in the trac-by-track analysis of the music but the Annotated scores shed light to the scoring process as well.

[Jay 37,369]

Never heard of it before, will have to check it out!

Hmm, here's his raw list:

http://musicofmiddleearth.com/list/

Looking at the FOTR Prologue, it's fairly different from my list:

http://www.jwfan.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=11861

For example, saying 4:18-4:26 is Weakness and Redemption, while my list says Rivendell....

[mstrox 6,651]

Never heard of it before, will have to check it out!

Hmm, here's his raw list:

http://musicofmiddleearth.com/list/

Looking at the FOTR Prologue, it's fairly different from my list:

http://www.jwfan.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=11861

For example, saying 4:18-4:26 is Weakness and Redemption, while my list says Rivendell....

Just checked the app - the app has it as "Rivendell." Must just be a typo/error on the website

[Incanus 5,715]

Well the Weakness and Redemption is an element of many thematic ideas throughout (Including the Rivendell arpeggios). In this case it underscores Isildur's failure to destroy the Ring so Weakness and Redemption is perhaps more apt as a motif of its own to score the moment.

Doug's book clearly states it is the Weakness and Redemption in this case but of course you are free to name it Rivendell if you want.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

Never heard of it before, will have to check it out!

Hmm, here's his raw list:

http://musicofmiddleearth.com/list/

Looking at the FOTR Prologue, it's fairly different from my list:

http://www.jwfan.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=11861

For example, saying 4:18-4:26 is Weakness and Redemption, while my list says Rivendell....

This list also states it's Rivendell: http://www.melson.nl/lotr/index.php?view=track&id=1

You win!

[Incanus 5,715]

It sounds like the Rivendell theme, it acts like the Rivendell theme! What is it?!!! It is Weakness and Redemption!

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Faleel 5,357]

To be fair, the Rivendell arpeggios are kind of a variant of Weakness and Redemption (or atleast that's what I think the book says)

[Incanus 5,715]

Didn't I just say that in my above post?

Fool of an Istar!

So is the bit at 02:57 in Guardians Of The Three the Weakness And Redemption motif, then, rather than the Rivendell theme?

No that is the Rivendell theme's arpeggios of course in counterpoint with Gandalf's theme before the actual Rivendell theme fragment appears. The dark obstinance will not avail you here Flame of JWFan!

I think this arpeggio figure is very much part of the fabric of these scores and how Shore writes his music. Doug Adams just identified it as a prominent element and it does have several places where it becomes a motif of its own. It is part of the Rivendell theme as a supporting figure and also a figure that appears at other times like in the Lighting of the Beacons. I think Thorin's Weakness and Redemption figure used in AUJ is another example of its use. It is certainly not always the same except in the form of rising and falling figures. But the sheer arpeggio idea of ascending and descending notes, no matter how much it might sound like the Rivendell arpeggios, does not automatically make it connected to Rivendell every time it appears. Context is very important.

[Faleel 5,357]

I hadn't read it yet!

[Incanus 5,715]

Incidentally even the Pity of Gollum theme is constructed on the Weakness and Redemption pitches. Makes so much sense!

[Faleel 5,357]

Thranduils music and the Weakness and Redemption in Lighting of the Beacons is very similar.

[Incanus 5,715]

Thranduils music and the Weakness and Redemption in Lighting of the Beacons is very similar.

Thranduil's little musical figure might well be another one of those appearances of Weakness and Redemption as his pride and partially also his greed clouds his judgement when he goes to war for the jewels. As I have mentioned before I also like how Shore uses the the cold eerie reading of the fragment of the Mirkwood theme for the gems of Lasgalen, which literally means the gems of the Greenwood aka Mirkwood.

[Faleel 5,357]

Lasgalen means Greenleaves not Greenwood Incanus, which I would assume is a connection to Legolas' mother (Legolas Greenleaf)

[Incanus 5,715]

Lasgalen means Greenleaves not Greenwood Incanus, which I would assume is a connection to Legolas' mother (Legolas Greenleaf)

Oooh by bad. Greenleaves. Quite right. Although Greenwood the Great is translation from Eryn Lasgalen, Wood of Greenleaves although the original name was Eryn Galen "The Greenwood". Sadly that origin of the jewels is never fully explained in the film. I hope EE will explain Thranduil's obsession with them. Still it is a good musical nod from Shore.

Speaking of Doug's book I think Shore has said that Doug knows his music perhaps even better than he does. I am sure there was some level of musical sleuthing Doug did and when he studied the scores he began to find these little musical ideas and connections Shore had been very subliminally aware when he was writing the LotR scores.

[Aglaron 3]

Hello everyone!

I'm the guy behind http://musicofmiddleearth.com/ and after lurking here for some time, this might be a good moment for my first post.

Glad to hear you find the application interesting!

Maybe a few words on the project:

I created the app mainly for myself, because I found it very inconvenient to listen to existing theme lists using only a music player like iTunes.

Releasing the app online was more of an afterthought; it isn't very professional and I only work on it as a hobby.

I used http://www.melson.nl/lotr/ as a base but made my own changes. Some tracks were very incomplete and I had to adjust many of the timings by a few seconds to have consistent timings in the app.

I also made heavy use of Doug's book of course and tried to include all of his mentioned theme occurrences.

I'm not really musically educated, so I'm probably not the most qualified person to do something like this.

There are probably many mistakes throughout the list but of course, everything can be discussed and I would gladly make corrections and release updates in the future to make this better!

(Some things are still very imprecise. For example, the whole 'Moria' track is only listed as a variation of the 'Moria' theme and the themes 'Riders of Rohan' and 'Shelob' are missing completely.)

The iOS version is currently one update behind the desktop version and the online list, which is why 4:18 - 4:26 in the Prologue is not the same in the two versions. (I'll try to update this as soon as possible.)

As some of you already mentioned in the meantime, 'Rivendell' and 'Weakness & Redemption' are very closely related. (See Doug's book for his explanation about 'W&R' and its connection to 'Rivendell' and 'The Pity of Gollum'.)

http://www.melson.nl/lotr/ has it listed as 'Rivendell', but to be fair, there is no 'W&R' at all in that list...

I later changed it to 'W&R' simply because this is how it's listed in Doug's book and I don't see a direct connection to Rivendell in the film. (Isildur with the ring, Galadriel talking: "... but the hearts of men are easily corrupted. And the ring of power has a will of its own.")

Concerning 'The Hobbit':

I would really like to include it as some point in the future. It just wasn't a priority for now and I'm not sure how to do it properly.

Ultimately I want this to be as complete as possible and consistent to Doug's book.

I also don't think that I could create a list by myself. For now I always refer to this excellent list in this forum: http://www.jwfan.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=23907.

(This is actually the reason why I found this forum in the first place.)

I could of course include this list in the application for now (only if it's fine with Jason LeBlanc obviously) and make changes in the future as we learn more about 'The Music of The Hobbit'.

As I mentioned above, I'm always open for suggestions!

Greetings from Switzerland!

[Jay 37,369]

Greetings Aglaron!

I'd probably recommend waiting for us to finish completing the Hobbit theme list before including it, and possibly waiting for Doug's book to come out too. It will probably clear up a lot of confusion.

Do you have any plans to include the LOTR OSTs or Rarities CD in your app?

[mstrox 6,651]

Thanks for the great app, Aglaron!

[Aglaron 3]

I'd probably recommend waiting for us to finish completing the Hobbit theme list before including it, and possibly waiting for Doug's book to come out too. It will probably clear up a lot of confusion.

I agree that this is probably the most reasonable approach. Let's hope we won't have to wait too long for the book this time around.

Do you have any plans to include the LOTR OSTs or Rarities CD in your app?

I thought about it before, yes. Especially the Rarities would be very interesting I think.

I was a bit hesitant about the OSTs at first as the albums don't include a lot of different music. Additionally, it might be inconvenient to make future changes if I'm maintaining two similar but still very different lists.

But I will look into it when I find the time. It would certainly make the app more complete and shouldn't be too much work in comparison to the CRs.

[Faleel 5,357]

I'd probably recommend waiting for us to finish completing the Hobbit theme list before including it, and possibly waiting for Doug's book to come out too. It will probably clear up a lot of confusion.

I agree that this is probably the most reasonable approach. Let's hope we won't have to wait too long for the book this time around.

Do you have any plans to include the LOTR OSTs or Rarities CD in your app?

I was a bit hesitant about the OSTs at first as the albums don't include a lot of different music.

Actually....

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[Incanus 5,715]

Another interesting coincidence like Thorin's theme cropping up in ROTK. 6:09 of 'Prologue: One Ring To Rule Them All' in FOTR CR sounds like the House of Durin theme to me. The bit after it also reminds me of a bit of the Erebor theme (just the shape of it).

The part around 6:09 is the Nameless Fear theme actually.

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[Incanus 5,715]

Another interesting coincidence like Thorin's theme cropping up in ROTK. 6:09 of 'Prologue: One Ring To Rule Them All' in FOTR CR sounds like the House of Durin theme to me. The bit after it also reminds me of a bit of the Erebor theme (just the shape of it).

The part around 6:09 is the Nameless Fear theme actually.

That may be one of the few LOTR themes I don't yet know. It's good to know I've got more to discover!

It is a very small motif and reprised only once in TTT when Galadriel is discussing the fate of Middle-earth with Elrond in their telepathic conversation.

[Kühni 485]

.

[Incanus 5,715]

I get very emotional about Nameless Fear, y'know. Such an underappreciated, yet awesome little motif. The entire music for FotR's Prologue is perfect at setting the tone and mood for Middle-earth.

True dat Christian.

[Faleel 5,357]

Another interesting coincidence like Thorin's theme cropping up in ROTK. 6:09 of 'Prologue: One Ring To Rule Them All' in FOTR CR sounds like the House of Durin theme to me. The bit after it also reminds me of a bit of the Erebor theme (just the shape of it).

The part around 6:09 is the Nameless Fear theme actually.

That may be one of the few LOTR themes I don't yet know. It's good to know I've got more to discover!

It is a very small motif and reprised only once in TTT when Galadriel is discussing the fate of Middle-earth with Elrond in their telepathic conversation.

Doesn't a variation of it reappear in Riddles in the dark?

[Incanus 5,715]

Another interesting coincidence like Thorin's theme cropping up in ROTK. 6:09 of 'Prologue: One Ring To Rule Them All' in FOTR CR sounds like the House of Durin theme to me. The bit after it also reminds me of a bit of the Erebor theme (just the shape of it).

The part around 6:09 is the Nameless Fear theme actually.

That may be one of the few LOTR themes I don't yet know. It's good to know I've got more to discover!

It is a very small motif and reprised only once in TTT when Galadriel is discussing the fate of Middle-earth with Elrond in their telepathic conversation.

Doesn't a variation of it reappear in Riddles in the dark?

I meant in The Lord of the Rings scores actually but do you mean the bit starting at 1:21 in Riddles in the Dark? I have always associated that with the Pity of Gollum material.

[Kühni 485]

.

[Incanus 5,715]

Has anyone yet found a connection between "Sons of Durin" and "The Doors of Durin"? Other than 'There be dead Sons of Durin behind the Doors of Durin', I mean...

Whaaa...?!!!

[BloodBoal 7,538]

Yes.

[Faleel 5,357]

Yeah.

do you mean the bit starting at 1:21 in Riddles in the Dark?

[gkgyver 1,645]

Totally.

Wait, what?

[Incanus 5,715]

Yeah.

do you mean the bit starting at 1:21 in Riddles in the Dark?

As I said to my ears it more resembles the Gollum material than the Nameless Fear.

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

No

[Incanus 5,715]

I think it is great that Howard Shore kept using it in his music and had a musical narrative for the theme none the less even when they always turned to the sound effects for the "voice" of the Ring rather than the music. The final (unused) low strings statement when Frodo is struggling in Sammath Naur with the will of the Ring that combines all the Ring themes is a wonderful moment and I am glad Shore took the opportunity to restore all these passages for the CRs.

[Faleel 5,357]

No

The very first few seconds of it does IIRC

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[Faleel 5,357]

I knew I wasn't the only one who thought that!

And you can hear the slowed down Skip Beat/Threat of Dol Guldur under it too

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[Incanus 5,715]

Time stamps gentlemen, time stamps!

[Faleel 5,357]

Time stamps gentlemen, time stamps!

It's the big choral music for the Fellowship climbing the tree(s?).

3:47 of Caras Galadhon (the same music appears in the OST/Theatrical equivalent), the choir sings what sounds like the Mordor theme, while the strings play what sounds like the slowed down Mordor Skip Beat/Threat of Dol Guldur.

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[Incanus 5,715]

I would say it is a mere similarity between the two Near Eastern flavoured themes, not an actual quote of the Mordor Theme.

[SafeUnderHill 205]