Opinion of James Horner.

[Kevin 22]

I think he's a very good composer. He's actually my favourite, but I like Williams too.

What are your opinions of him?

[Morlock 11]

A great film composer. Totally unoriginal. But a great film composer, one of the best.

[Kevin 22]

Williams's hands have the blood of unoriginality on them too.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

Totally unoriginal.

BS.  

[Richard Penna 3,694]

I've been listening to Horner a lot recently. The days of me absolutely hating the guy have gone, although I still get irritated at overuse of the metal clang or piano crashes and I also still think most of Titanic is overrated trash.

His biggest strength to me is his thematic abilities - Krull, Legends of the Fall, Deep Impact, Glory - there are tracks from those scores I can play over and over again because of their beautiful sweeping statements. His self plagiarism though, is not something I forget. I mean all composers do it occasionally, but I've never heard anyone else nearly fully quote a theme such as in The Wedding from Bicentennial Man, and I'm sure there are others.

[Kevin 22]

Like Williams. I'm not attacking Williams. There is mostly direct quote from "Enter Lord Vader" from "The Quiddatch Match". For information, not criticism.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

at overuse of the metal clang or piano crashes

Believe it or not, even Williams reuses musical devices comparable to those...over...and over....and over....and over...and over....and over.

It's hardly overuse, just style. What'd Williams be without boom-tzzz?

such as in The Wedding from Bicentennial Man, and I'm sure there are others.

Oh there are plenty of others, but this does not mean that he lacks the capacity for original scoring, which many seem to imply.

I also still think most of Titanic is overrated trash.

I'll heartily disagree with you there.

[Kevin 22]

You can't systemtically say which composer is better over the other. I think that there is too much of a double standard when comparing John Williams and James Horner. People defend John Williams for using his 'style' in movies, and on the other hand, attack Horner for the same thing.

[Morlock 11]

Totally unoriginal.

BS.  

The man does the same thing over and over and over again. And it works over and over and over again. He is not a creator of music that can be called original. And he doesn't pretend to be. He calls himself an emotionalist, as opposed to composer, and he says that because there are only so many notes, there are no more original melodies to be written. But, originality is hardly a necessity in film music, far from it.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

Or when Williams lifts directly from another score ala Gilderoy Lockhart, or offers up countless variations of a once great action cue, it is completely forgivable, as this is the JDub Fanboi Club!!!!11111 SQUEEEEEEE!

The man does the same thing over and over and over again.

Funny you should mention that as I happen to be listening to the Mask of Zorro.

[Kevin 22]

He uses the same emotions and colours, for example, The New World, the melodies are new, but there are the familiar textures and styles he uses.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

As is to be expected. It's what makes listening to Horner listening to Horner. It's what differentiates people like him from composers today like John Powell or John Ottman. It's what puts him at the top with Goldsmith, Williams, and slowly but surely James Newton Howard. These composers I've listed, have the three most unique styles, and stand as the best the industry has seen in the last 20 years.

They write scores with character and heart, unmatched by any new comer in the last decade.

I would also note Howard Shore and Danny Elfman for very distinct styles, but a lot of their material doesn't do it for me as much as the others. But their scores too have character, you just have to be the kind of personality to enjoy them. I can, but not to such a great degree.

[Morlock 11]

He was still doing the same thing over there, just with a different setting. And I love Horner, he has some of the best film scores and albums out there. But I can't remember the last time I heard something on a Horner album that I've never heard him do before.

[Kevin 22]

I suggest go find a score you haven't listened to before?

Williams uses styles in many cases too.

To be honest, this conversation is alot more subtle than what I thought it would be. I thought some jerk would just scream "Horner is a hack" in all his posts.

[Richard Penna 3,694]

such as in The Wedding from Bicentennial Man, and I'm sure there are others.

Oh there are plenty of others, but this does not mean that he lacks the capacity for original scoring, which many seem to imply.

I also still think most of Titanic is overrated trash.

I'll heartily disagree with you there.

Oh I'm not criticisng his capacity for original scoring. I believe that when he really wants to, he can produce stunning music. I just wish directors could be less obsessive in some ways.

We can agree to disagree about Titanic I just think most of the synths are horribly misplaced and overall the score just doesn't do it for me. I also recognise that Williams uses boom-tzz and other styles a lot, but they're just not as irritating to me as loud clangs.

I thought some jerk would just scream "Horner is a hack" in all his posts.

I'm a little surprised at the lack of that too. I guess it's more reserved for Zimmer these days.

[Morlock 11]

I've heard a lot of Horner, and I still pick up as many of his scores as possible. The last new thing I've heard him do was the strange JW action music in the second Zorro score (no idea what went on there). Whatever. Horner is a great film composer, and I think it's folly to say that he copies himself no more than anyone else does.

[Kevin 22]

There is also the part of the director which we don't know about. He could say "you know that motif that Williams does, could you replicate that somehow in your music in this part?"

Goldsmith said in an interview that he had to mimck Williams's Jaws theme in The Omen.

[Richard Penna 3,694]

That's what I meant when I mentioned obsessive directors. I used to assume that Horner just repeated himself, but people started to suggest it might be a director's/producer's request.

One score I know of where this is clearly evident is Edmund Choi's The Dish. Excellent score, but it has Apollo 13 written all over it, from the theme, to the panicky action stuff to the solo at the end.

[Farawyn 0]

He was still doing the same thing over there, just with a different setting. And I love Horner, he has some of the best film scores and albums out there. But I can't remember the last time I heard something on a Horner album that I've never heard him do before.

I definitely agree with Morlock on this. Horner found during the course of his career some great musical ideas, textures, colors, melodies, but doesn't seem able to find new ones. Thus his ability to produce scores at a very fast rate (10 in 1993 !). Thus a tendency for self-plagiarism, and unoriginality. For me, since The Mask of Zorro (and maybe Apocalypto), he hasn't created anything really new.

The "four note danger theme" is omnipresent in The Mask of Zorro, Enemy at the Gates , Troy... which is really too much. Worse, Vassili's theme in Enemy at the Gates is a copy and paste of Schindler's List theme . One can also find traces of it in Titanic (track 9 or 10 if I remember well) and in Apollo 13 (in "Re-Entry & Splashdown ") ....

Don't get me wrong : Horner is a brilliant composer. I really adore A Beautiful Mind, but the theme is that of Bicentennial Man, virtually note for note. Robots and mathematical geniuses aren't the same thing. He definitely needs to find new ideas for EACH of his scores.

[Kevin 22]

There's Apollo 13 by Horner in Mission to Mars by Morricone. The solemn character of his music and especially the snare drums and the grave trumpet solos remember me of James Horner's music of Apollo 13 from 1995.

The music underscores similar situations in the plot: a serial of accidents and the threatening loss of people (which gets reality in the Mission to Mars story line) - here is one funereal theme which is played when the movie describes the loss of the character Woodrow 'Woody' Blake that remind me eminently of Apollo 13.

There was also a hymn-like brass theme played at the farewell and departure of the main character Jim McConnell at the end of the movie with a similar reminiscence and style.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

Speaking of self-plagiarism.

[Kevin 22]

He was still doing the same thing over there, just with a different setting. And I love Horner, he has some of the best film scores and albums out there. But I can't remember the last time I heard something on a Horner album that I've never heard him do before.

I definitely agree with Morlock on this. Horner found during the course of his career some great musical ideas, textures, colors, melodies, but doesn't seem able to find new ones. Thus his ability to produce scores at a very fast rate (10 in 1993 !). Thus a tendency for self-plagiarism, and unoriginality. For me, since The Mask of Zorro (and maybe Apocalypto), he hasn't created anything really new.

The "four note danger theme" is omnipresent in The Mask of Zorro, Enemy at the Gates , Troy... which is really too much. Worse, Vassili's theme in Enemy at the Gates is a copy and paste of Schindler's List theme . One can also find traces of it in Titanic (track 9 or 10 if I remember well) and in Apollo 13 (in "Re-Entry & Splashdown ") ....

Don't get me wrong : Horner is a brilliant composer. I really adore A Beautiful Mind, but the theme is that of Bicentennial Man, virtually note for note. Robots and mathematical geniuses aren't the same thing. He definitely needs to find new ideas for EACH of his scores.

The Enemy at the Gates theme is not a copy of Williams's Schindler's List. There are certainly parts where the melodic structure from Schindler's List does appear. But it's merely the structure! It's not note-for-note, and usually, it's played in a mode that givesit a completely different melody altogether. They actually both adapted from from a classical piece by Mahler.

[Farawyn 0]

Morricone (I really never understood why he is so appreciated) is indeed very inclined to copying himself (and others)...

[Kevin 22]

Jerry Goldsmith's action music becomes highly derivative after a while, except for a few outstanding cues.

[Farawyn 0]

He was still doing the same thing over there, just with a different setting. And I love Horner, he has some of the best film scores and albums out there. But I can't remember the last time I heard something on a Horner album that I've never heard him do before.

I definitely agree with Morlock on this. Horner found during the course of his career some great musical ideas, textures, colors, melodies, but doesn't seem able to find new ones. Thus his ability to produce scores at a very fast rate (10 in 1993 !). Thus a tendency for self-plagiarism, and unoriginality. For me, since The Mask of Zorro (and maybe Apocalypto), he hasn't created anything really new.

The "four note danger theme" is omnipresent in The Mask of Zorro, Enemy at the Gates , Troy... which is really too much. Worse, Vassili's theme in Enemy at the Gates is a copy and paste of Schindler's List theme . One can also find traces of it in Titanic (track 9 or 10 if I remember well) and in Apollo 13 (in "Re-Entry & Splashdown ") ....

Don't get me wrong : Horner is a brilliant composer. I really adore A Beautiful Mind, but the theme is that of Bicentennial Man, virtually note for note. Robots and mathematical geniuses aren't the same thing. He definitely needs to find new ideas for EACH of his scores.

The Enemy at the Gates theme is not a copy of Williams's Schindler's List. They actually both adapted from from a classical piece by Mahler.

I'm quite sure Horner had Schindler's theme in mind when he wrote Enemy, not Mahler. The period is the same, the feelings depicted are close, the movie also deals with Nazi antisemitism....

[Kevin 22]

I edited that post, if you read again.

[Henry B 50]

Horner's "danger motif" joke really wears thin. I can't take him totally seriously as a composer because of it.

Willow was awesome, though.

[Farawyn 0]

O.K., but still : the structure is way too close. It seems to me Horner just changed the tone and pace ... The theme isn't particularly striking either.

[Kevin 22]

What are your favourite Horner scores?

[Farawyn 0]

Without the shadow of a doubt :

- The Land Before Time : a simply gorgeous score.

- An American Tail and American Tail: Fievel Goes West : great (original ) melodies.

- The Rocketeer : really epic.

- A Beautiful Mind : a beautiful score.

[Kevin 22]

I don't have a favourite, but I like alot of them.

A Beautiful Mind

Aliens

Battle Beyond the Stars

Back to Titanic

Field of Dreams

Glory

The Grinch

Krull

The Spitfire Grill

Both Star Treks

The Perfect Storm

The Rocketeer

Troy

Willow

We're Back: A Dinosaur's Story

Both Zorros

The Land Before Time

An American Tail and An American Tail: Fievel Goes West

The New World

Titanic

Braveheart

Apollo 13

The Four Feathers

[Morlock 11]

Horner's 'Tanya' from Enemy at the Gates (also used in other scores, like Titanic), is actually from Mahler, the same piece people accuse JW of using for Schindler's List.

[Ollie 1,059]

At one time Horner was a very good composer and one of my favorites. I didn't even care that he borrowed and copied from time to time.

Somewhere after 1990 he became a very dull and predictable composer. His music turned bland and stale and lacked any of the charm that made me like him.

Horner before 1990 I love, with the excpetion of Braveheart anything that follows after that date I don't even bother with.

I will admit Titanic works well in the film.

[Kevin 22]

Horner's 'Tanya' from Enemy at the Gates (also used in other scores, like Titanic), is actually from Mahler, the same piece people accuse JW of using for Schindler's List.

As I said they're both adapted from Mahler.

[Morlock 11]

Horner's is stolen from Mahler. JW's starts off with Mahler, and then expands and changes it. Like his love theme from Superman. Of course it's Strauss. But he took it and expanded it, and created something new. Horner generally doesn't do that. Which is why he is the only film composer I know of who's plagarism caused a successful court case.

[Farawyn 0]

Horner's is stolen from Mahler. JW's starts off with Mahler, and then expands and changes it. Like his love theme from Superman. Of course it's Strauss. But he took it and expanded it, and created something new. Horner generally doesn't do that. Which is why he is the only film composer I know of who's plagarism caused a successful court case.

Indeed.

[Morlock 11]

I frankly am more impressed by Horner's post 1990 works. Sneakers, Apollo 13, Braveheart, Titanic, Legends of The Fall.....those are probably my favorites. Although I do love Kull and Wrath of Khan, as well as the two American Tail scores. And several others from all periods.

[Farawyn 0]

Horner certainly did find some of his best musical ideas with Apollo 13, Braveheart, Titanic, Zorro ; works composed between 1995 and 1999. Was this his "prime" ?

[Ollie 1,059]

Oops, forgot about Apollo 13.

Horner certainly did find some of his best musical ideas with Apollo 13, Braveheart, Titanic, Zorro ; works composed between 1995 and 1999. Was this his "prime" ?

1982 to 1989.

[Red 75]

Horner was a truely great composer, who has now faded to a fair composer.

Braveheart

Willow

Titanic

Glory

Legends of the Fall

These are all classics.

[King Mark 3,631]

My favourites:

Krull

Star Trek 2

The Land Beyond Time

Casper

Cocoon

Project X

Rocketeer

[Vaderbait1 1]

I like some of Horner's work, but let's not kid ourselves. His self-plagiarism is on a scale not comparable to anyone. Williams' re-use of boom-tzzz and maybe the rare near-quote from an obscure work is not the same as almost every score having entire segments devoted to the same four note theme.

[Romão 2,274]

Even my brother, who is far from being a film score fan, laughed out loud when he heard the danger theme in Enemy at the Gates.

[Panthera 0]

I think his score for Balto is one of the best scores for an animated film. I am really surprised nobody even mentioned it so far.

[ChuckM 1]

He can be a brilliant composer when he wants to be. Scores like "A Beautiful Mind" attest to that. The main complaint I have of him is his constant reuses of certain cues. I don't mind so much when he just throws them in very briefly as sort of a musical signature, but some scores *cough* Troy *cough* are almost nothing but those cues.

[John Crichton 4]

I remember one day, long ago, when I watched Apollo 13 and Deep Impact on consecutive nights. When it was over, the first thing I thought was: "Did I just hear the exact same score?"

The two Star Treks and Willow are all I care about from Horner, all are excellent scores. There's no denying the man's talent, just his work ethic.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

Well on Troy he had 3.5 weeks to work.

Goldsmith's Airforce One is hailed as brilliant work in a short amount of time, yet it only contains uh...enough lifts from his other scores to fill an orchestral hall twice over.

See the double standard?

[King Mark 3,631]

The moment that really got me interested in Horner is back in 1985,at the beginning of Cocoon with the panning shot of the earth and that 4 note spine tingling brass fanfare.

k.M.

[Jacob 0]

Before I became a big time film score fan I had been exposed to The Rocketeer and Braveheart. But I don't think it was until I heard Willow for the first time that I really took notice of James Horner - after I had become much more of a movie music fan.

I haven't seen Willow since I was too little to care about the music or remember much about the film (except that it was infamous in my family for making my older sister vomit in the theater parking lot). First listen through, I absolutely adored it. I don't think I can name another soundtrack that I've listened to without hardly any prior exposure and loved so much. Complete unknown to instant classic on first listen.

That experience has more or less become a standard by which I judge new scores I hear. Usually it's a "That was okay, but didn't pull me into it like Willow did on first listen."

And it doesn't hurt that fantasy adventure is my favorite genre.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

I love James! His music is hornifying.