There is No Piano in harry potter

[pi 0]

I thought I was in for a disaster when I heard solo piano in the opening minute of Harry Potter. After 4 movies with no piano this guy just brings in a piano, and ignores the other composer's palletes. I was like forget this. Score was weak but not as weak as Doyle's.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Oh this is rubbish!

[standbyfax 0]

Wow, I thought that little bit of piano at the beginning fit the moment and represented Harry's isolation quite well.

[pi 0]

Has it not been shown enough that Harry Potter = celeste, not PIANo.

[Red 75]

What's wrong with using a piano?

[standbyfax 0]

I really don't think continuity needs to go that far. Celeste would not have created the same kind of feeling as the piano did. The composer should use whatever instrument is right for the moment, not strictly stick to a style used by someone else.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Indeed!

These scores have to be thought of like the Star Trek scores. They all feature the Alexander Courage theme, but everyone one of them is different.

[pi 0]

Don't you think if JW wanted to use Piano in the first three he would have? Doyle in 4? Sure it belongs in the orchestra, but in the ensemble. I found this element to be out of charachter for the movie series. Something that just stuck out horribly. He's a wizard not a lawyer.

[standbyfax 0]

And since when did pianos signify lawyers? I would think maybe bassoon.

[pi 0]

And since when did pianos signify lawyers? I would think maybe bassoon.

Well I was thinking of the firm.

But JW hardly ever uses that solo piano BS. Why? Because it is a cop-out! Its easiest to write and belongs on TV or non fantasy movies. Besides the manner in which it was used was weak. After a big main title with full orchestra, to go to a piano.

[Red 75]

Yeah, E.T. - "End Credits" is such a cop out.

[pi 0]

Yeah, E.T. - "End Credits" is such a cop out.

That's not the same usage. Think about it, the only time JW uses that sappy minor key TV ish piano I think is presumed innocent. Star Wars? No. Harry Potter? No. Jones? No. Other composers... Shore LOTR? No.

Why only use it for one scene then? I don't get it. It was out of characther for his own score. The rest of which I enjoyed to a small degree.

[Red 75]

You're making about as much sense as I normally do.

[A24 4,365]

But JW hardly ever uses that solo piano BS. Why? Because it is a cop-out! Its easiest to write and belongs on TV or non fantasy movies.

Sorry to say it but you're a very shallow and uneducated Williams fan.

[Henry B 50]

The argument: piano does not belong in Harry Potter.

The justification: harumph!

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

But JW hardly ever uses that solo piano BS. Why? Because it is a cop-out! Its easiest to write and belongs on TV or non fantasy movies.

Sorry to say it but you're a very shallow and uneducated Williams fan.

Especially considering probably every piece of music Williams has ever written was crafted with a piano.

Pi, just because something was not used in one film does not mean it cannot be used in another. You might actually state the case that Hooper was doing something fresh.

[pi 0]

But JW hardly ever uses that solo piano BS. Why? Because it is a cop-out! Its easiest to write and belongs on TV or non fantasy movies.

Sorry to say it but you're a very shallow and uneducated Williams fan.

When JW uses piano its usually

1) Part of the Ensemble as a doubler or percussion, - Jaws, Star Wars, Munich

2) As a Soloist in Concerto like form - mostly the cues from ET. Active part, with accompaniment.

3) As a soloist playing/presenting a previously developed/new theme. Schindler's List (Pallette cleanser from the orchestra, violin combo). Presumed Innocent, Minority Report, Sabrina. In these examples his usages are elegant.

He never just does thos non thematic, minor, arpeggio, sappy 2 chords things. His usage has direct purpose.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

What exactly is your point? Because John Williams does not use solo-piano a lot, no one else is allowed too? Solo piano is bad somehow?

[pi 0]

Pi, just because something was not used in one film does not mean it cannot be used in another. You might actually state the case that Hooper was doing something fresh.

Its funny that he crafts with a piano yet hardly ever uses it in his scores.

Stefan Cosman, I can agree with this idea if he was not continuing a movie series developed by 4 other movies and hours of score. Celeste has proven itself to be the only keyboard usage in these scores. Not only that but it is the most important instrument of the Harry Potter scores. What would the main Hedwig theme be if it was on the piano? 100 percent less magic. The celeste is associate with HP not the piano. If he had perhaps written the same part, on to the celeste with a nice minor string pad behind it, it would have worked much better.

[Trent B 337]

Here I thought red_rabbit wasn't making any sense. pi is worse...

[Henry B 50]

Well, you see... the movies are supposed to be different from each other in some ways... and new scores are supposed to breath new life into the series, rather than copying their predecessors... It's an odd theory, isn't it? I still cling to it, though.

[scissorhands 16]

Well, THAT kind of solo piano is bad. One of the most unoriginal, uncreative and easiest things in film music.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

John Williams had started to abandon the celeste to some degree in his last score, like he abandoned several themes and stylistic ideas he introduced in his first score. I don't see why other composers should be held to those restrictions.

This is like people whining that Williams replaced his family theme from PS with Window To The Past, it's just musical evolution.

I guess that's why people here love the score to COS so much, not a single original musical idea in the entire score, safe, comfortable....familiar.

[pi 0]

Well, THAT kind of solo piano is bad. One of the most unoriginal, uncreative and easiest things in film music.

It just sounds as if the guy just improvised some crap and was like Ok thats it. 85 percent of good film music comes from the setting. Solo piano is the least original thing in scoring. It has been done over and over more so than anything else. Even with a solo piano setting a clever composer can make it interesting, either through the melody or harmonies. Yet he just did his borring minor chord thing. These films deserve more attention then that.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Piano solo's are used often in film and TV because they don't cost a lot of money and can be an effective way to convey the emotions across.

These films deserve more attention then that.

Oh come of it, it's just a Harry Potter film.

[pi 0]

Yet the opening cue, LUMOS, is a celeste solo. I think part of my hatred for this cue is that the opening of Harry Potter scored by JW was always a quiet, solo celeste cue. As if, "you are in store for something magical" These last two composers, lacking the talent, experience of Williams, totally abandonded something he did masterfully three times, and went right to the big orchestra cue. Hooper took it further, completely abandoning the carefully laid down instrumental, characther associations by Williams in three films, and clumbsily going to a solo piano. Did they even listen to his scores?

[scissorhands 16]

Well, THAT kind of solo piano is bad. One of the most unoriginal, uncreative and easiest things in film music.

It just sounds as if the guy just improvised some crap and was like Ok thats it. 85 percent of good film music comes from the setting. Solo piano is the least original thing in scoring. It has been done over and over more so than anything else. Even with a solo piano setting a clever composer can make it interesting, either through the melody or harmonies. Yet he just did his borring minor chord thing. These films deserve more attention then that.

Yeah, I agree, and it reminds me of TV scoring. Sean Callery comes to my mind right now.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

What about looking at the films they are actually scoring, and deciding what would fit for the dramatic and emotional narretive and content of those? Don't you thinks that is basically a good thing to do?

Again, with POA Williams chucked out many of the things he created for the first film, he probably would have done COS differtently if he had more time to write the score himself.

If John Williams is free to disregard his own work, why isn't Doyle, or Hooper?

[Joe Brausam 216]

Celeste has proven itself to be the only keyboard usage in these scores. Not only that but it is the most important instrument of the Harry Potter scores. What would the main Hedwig theme be if it was on the piano? 100 percent less magic.

There's been harpsichord too...

[pi 0]

I am not sure what Stefan means by Williams disregaring his own work. All three films start the same way, and dont have piano. Hooper only uses piano in the opening cue.

And yes JW uses harpiscord, which in modern times has taken a role as a specialty, period instrument - similar to Recorders, autoharps, organs, hurdy gurdys etc...

It is quite similar to the exact openings in Star Wars, Williams created something very similar to that idea.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Yes they start in the same way, but that is basically it.

Williams abandons most of his themes old themes and creates new ones in POA, he uses instruments that he did not use in The Philosophers Stone, he uses diffent musical styles like jazz or big band. Because Williams looked at the film and decideded that's what it needed, and because he was working with a different director who had a different vision.

If Williams would have used a solo piano at some point, no one here would have complained.

[scissorhands 16]

I think it has to do with Williams' memory... he doesn't remember anything he wrote 2 years ago so instead of wasting time for revising his scores, he just decides to create new material. That's what I think.

[Red 75]

I thought "Window to the Past" was an improvement.

[pixie_twinkle 48]

The piano during the opening scene of Order of the Phoenix gives that slightly grey suburban feel the the musical atmosphere. It's a sharp contrast to the magical world of Hogwarts and the wizards. The opening of OOTP is quite striking in its lack of anything unusual (until the dementors arrive). Harry sits dejected in the childrens' playground while his cousin Dudley stomps around with his "gang". It's all quite down to Earth, the opposite of where the last film left off. Poor Harry is stuck in this suburban misery isolated from the people and world he loves. The simple piano worked very well. Yes, it surprised me when I first heard it, but in a very effective way.

Williams himself has used piano to symbolise suburbia. Hook, for instance.

[Jediwashington 59]

The opening of the last two just stink. I don't understand why after 3 prime examples of how to open a magic film effectively, Doyle would open with some drum junk. And the opening for this film...meh. it's better, but not great. While I respect composers and appreciate individuality, if you come into a well established series, you've gotta take a few hints at least. There are ways to represent a directors vision while staying within the realm of what has come before you.

~JW

[SomeNewGuy 0]

These scores have to be thought of like the Star Trek scores. They all feature the Alexander Courage theme, but everyone one of them is different.

I never thought about it like that, but that makes an awful lot of sense. I feel oddly relieved now, as if I have one less thing to be irked by.

_!

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

With all due respect Peio, I don't believe that is very credible.

I can believe Williams not remembering Boba Fett's motif some 20 years later, or one of the themes from Jaws 2.

But he compiled a special suite with the themes from The Philosophers Stone and performed that in concerts. He came back to those themes when he did his 40 minutes, or however much it was for COS, so I doubt he forgot about them.

Apart from the Star Wars films and Home Alone 2, Williams generally tends to score sequels differently. Jaws 2 had the shark theme and a cameo or 2 from previous themes but most of it is different music. The indiana Jones scores are all completely different, outside of The Raiders March.

The most striking example is the complete difference between Jurassic Park and The Lost World.

[Datameister 2,087]

I'm gonna reserve judgment till I hear the score--I'm one of those guys who sees nothing morally wrong with hearing a score before seeing the film, but who personally prefers to wait. I'm not feeling particularly optimistic about this score, but I'm going to try to approach without automatically comparing every musical choice to what JW might have done. Solo piano can be intelligent and absolutely lovely, or it can be tinkly junk that's cheap to produce and quick to "compose." Like I said, I'll reserve judgment on this cue till I see the movie.

[Ray Barnsbury 8]

The piano during the opening scene of Order of the Phoenix gives that slightly grey suburban feel the the musical atmosphere. It's a sharp contrast to the magical world of Hogwarts and the wizards. The opening of OOTP is quite striking in its lack of anything unusual (until the dementors arrive). Harry sits dejected in the childrens' playground while his cousin Dudley stomps around with his "gang". It's all quite down to Earth, the opposite of where the last film left off. Poor Harry is stuck in this suburban misery isolated from the people and world he loves. The simple piano worked very well. Yes, it surprised me when I first heard it, but in a very effective way.

Took the words right out of my mouth. The piano worked very well for the scene, which, by the way, I thought was quite an effective way to open the film. Can you imagine a mystical celeste playing over that realistically gritty scene? Don't be ridiculous, pi.

Ray Barnsbury

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

There are ways to represent a directors vision while staying within the realm of what has come before you.

~JW

What if the director or the producers ask you to do something different.

The opening to GOF is much darker then those of the previous 3 films, I don't think the bright elegant celeste theme would have fitted.

[Trent B 337]

Seriously though in the end does it really matter if this is different from the others? I for one wouldn't want the same music for each film of a series....that would seriously get boring.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

As long as it's good, or effective music, I'm happy.

[standbyfax 0]

The piano during the opening scene of Order of the Phoenix gives that slightly grey suburban feel the the musical atmosphere. It's a sharp contrast to the magical world of Hogwarts and the wizards. The opening of OOTP is quite striking in its lack of anything unusual (until the dementors arrive). Harry sits dejected in the childrens' playground while his cousin Dudley stomps around with his "gang". It's all quite down to Earth, the opposite of where the last film left off. Poor Harry is stuck in this suburban misery isolated from the people and world he loves. The simple piano worked very well. Yes, it surprised me when I first heard it, but in a very effective way.

Took the words right out of my mouth. The piano worked very well for the scene, which, by the way, I thought was quite an effective way to open the film. Can you imagine a mystical celeste playing over that realistically gritty scene? Don't be ridiculous, pi.

Ray Barnsbury

Completely agree. Many of you against the piano are saying that it's not an effective way to open a magical movie. Did you see the film? There was nothing magical about the open 2-3 minutes. Harry was completely alone in a world he hates. The music matched the scene very well.

[pi 0]

The opening of the 4th movie is pretty dark. Some old guy dies. Darker then some shot of some kids in a field.

To support the theory about JW's memory. I forgot to say but at the BSO JW concert Williams spoke of "Fawkes the Pheonix" as the bird Potter rides in the third movie (Buckbeak). He siad it both nights I was there. So its obvious he doesnt watch these movies much after they are finished.

I am pretty sure all the movies start with the floating HP/WB logo in the clouds. The composer would have to be really uncomfortable to abandon what has obvoisly worked so well three times. Presenting Hedwig's theme in celeste. Doyle watered down JW's theme even more making it diatonic and not chormatic. That drove me crazy when i saw it also. These last two scores lack complete thematic identification, liet motif's. I mean what were these guys thinking? You have established charachters, identically filmed shots, and we dont even get a theme aside from a weak usage of JW's opening. They both really missed the ball with these scores. Further more. There were like 3-4 absolute gifts from the director to the composer, mainly the flying scenes....with no dialouge. And we got some watered down string pads. Look at how magical JW was with that brilliant flute solo in the third movie. All the pieces were there for Hooper to hit a home run but he totally blew it.

In most of the movies there is nothing magical in the opening scene. That is exactly the point. The contrast is what makes it magical. Williams scores the logo, he sets the mood for a magical film. It is brilliant because he knows in the previews we are seeing the same old taiko drum, big sting, string arpeggio, piano, 9 french horns trailer music. The empty setting of the celeste is a 100 percent magical attention grabber.

[Composer_Fan 2]

I liked the piano part. I know it wasn't the most original thing. I like the synth sounds behind the piano as well, and I usually don't like synth. Also, the piano doesn't come in until after the logo has gone by. If the piano were accompanying the titles, now THAT would be a little strange.

I think introducing a piano to the score is similar to introducing "Double Trouble" and the assorted period instruments in the third movie.

[pi 0]

I think the period instruments are associated with the oldness of the castle and its traditions. Recorder + harpiscord. The castle has a very midevil feel, potions, gothic architecture, magic.... no computers, TVs,

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Stating the obvious now, pi.

[Morlock 11]

Well, not quite- I always thought it had a late-evil feel, not a mid-evil one.

Morlock- attempting to pull a Bulk, and miserably failing. No need to even say it.

[Eric_JWFAN 11]

Did anyone else think the scenes with Grawp looked like they were 15 years behind the times? I understand this is probably the most difficult special effect to make look convincing (mixing miniature person with giant) but I thought they did a horrendous job with it.

On the contrary, I am absolutely in love with the final 20 minutes of this movie. Astonishing camera work and editing, and extremely innovative effects. I can only imagine what it is like in Imax.

*edited: oops this was supposed to go in the Hooper thread. But just to stay in topic here, I fully understand and agree with pi's point. There should be no piano in HP (and I am a pianist).

[Jeshopk 8]

Yeah, E.T. - "End Credits" is such a cop out.

That's not the same usage. Think about it, the only time JW uses that sappy minor key TV ish piano I think is presumed innocent. Star Wars? No. Harry Potter? No. Jones? No. Other composers... Shore LOTR? No.

The piano is a cheap sounding instrument unless it is virtuoso writing, or just the really low or really high notes which are more for special effects. I never like to use exposed piano for a melody unless it is very classical, interesting or busy writing.