Media Ventures - Remote Control

[Datameister 2,044]

Others like Jablonsky, Mancina, and Glennie-Smith don't have their personal style down yet.

Agreed very much about Jablonsky, from what little of his I've heard. Glennie-Smith...well, the only thing of his I've heard is Drop Zone's "Flashback and Fries," which fits in seamlessly with Zimmer's work on the score, so I agree again. But Mark Mancina?! He's done fabulous work that doesn't remotely resemble the MV stereotype. Listen to his overture to The Haunted Mansion, which is sadly only officially available in an edited form. There's an intelligence and subtlety and understanding of the orchestra and sense of delicate fun that's not found in many MV projects. His action music can be a little tiresome at times, but he generally uses real orchestras with minimal use of synths and overall, his music is a lot of fun. Not at all Zimmerish, IMO.

EDIT:

Datameister, Journey To Line is a very nice piece, the score is subtle yet powerful...my favorite.

I'm listening to it now. Better than I remembered it, definitely. It's a little too...obvious, I suppose, for it to truly move me the way I'd like it to, but I'm certainly enjoying it.

EDIT AGAIN:

OK, "Light" has got me intrigued. I like the piece--I now remember enjoying it quite a bit the first time I heard it. Love the bell choir! Such a lovely sort of ensemble, and one that rightfully but unfortunately is rarely heard in film music.

[Neimoidian 14]

Here are what I believe to be his best works:

1) The Thin Red Line

Really? I took a listen to that a few weeks ago, and most of struck me as droning and mindless. Perhaps I missed something...I was slightly distracted...

I find it a masterpiece, but it took me a while to realize this. Beautiful, transcendental, inspiring, emotional..., perfect. One of my favourite soundtracks.

[Datameister 2,044]

I find it a masterpiece, but it took me a while to realize this. Beautiful, transcendental, inspiring, emotional..., perfect. One of my favourite soundtracks.

As my edit above indicates, my view is closer to yours now--it really is a pretty nice soundtrack, some parts more than others. My only complaint is how "obvious" a lot of it feels. Effective, but not groundbreaking. Mind you, there are numerous parts that strike me much better than that.

[A24 4,346]

I could undertstand why some of you might not like his music, but hate it? Honestly, his riveting action pieces, and even a few beautiful pieces (love theme from world's end, this land, Chevalier de Sangreal, etc...) His style is different, but he is still a great composer. Though maybe not as good as JW, I respect Zimmer deeply, and he is one of my favorite film compsers.

Hate is a too strong word but he did corny up the corniest images of Gladiator. The result was very, very corny.

[Richard Penna 3,695]

Gladiator was one of my first scores ever - in fact The Battle was one of my first tracks ever, before I discovered the rest of the movie had 'underscore'

I admit I don't listen to it as much as I used to, but it remains a fine achievement in my eyes. I also think highly of The Thin Red Line - some superb atmospheric material, with surprisingly few synths in many places, to my ears anyway.

[David Coscina 4]

I agree that Zimmer and co. are capable of composing emotionally manipulative music that "gets under the skin" and most directors these days like that. Also, Williams is not too dis-similar in his scoring approach- it's just that his compositional skills and musical skills far exceed that of Zimmer or really anyone else in the film scoring community at the moment.

One that I must point out about Zimmer is that he was NOT a teacher to John Powell, HArry Gregson-Williams nor Mark Macina nor Klaus Badelt. they had already received formal training (especially Powell and Gregson-Williams) long before they met up with Zimmer. MEdia Ventures was established by Hans to cultivate and bring new talent to the film scoring industry in a form of pay-it-forward since Stanley Myers had done the very same thing for Zimmer early in his musical life.

But to espouse Zimmer as a teacher is wrong. A mentor, perhaps, especially with respect to the art of applying music to the film medium. That I will grant him. And he has introduced some pretty interesting composers to the field that might otherwise have gone unnoticed like Powell and Mancina, both of whom have very distinguishable styles of their own.

Some might ask why Williams doesn't mentor anyone. Well, because he's busy writing music. From all accounts, that has been his sole interest and occupation for the past 30 odd years, which explains why he does it so much better than most.

Does this mean Zimmer is more generous or benevolent? Well, I think Zimmer is a better manager than a composer in his own right. He's ostensibly set up an industry within an industry. He's also an adept people person. If you look at personality types, most "great" composers weren't necessarily wonderful at interpersonal interactions. They lived inside their own world. Herrmann was definitely that personality type. Even guys like Alex North who, from all accounts, was a sweet man, wasn't a social party-goer in the Hollywood food chain. Goldsmith at best could be described as irrrascible.

So I guess what I'm trying to say is that Zimmer has found his way up to the top by cirumventing traditional methods to do so. Instead of working fervently on mastering orchestration, harmony, counterpoint, etc. he's cultivated his people skills so that many directors (who are mostly tempermental bastards anyhow) want to work with him because he's very accomodating. He also provides simple, effective scores. Most directors don't have the same musical refinement of say a Franklin Shaffner who let Goldsmith take over entire scenes with his music in order to forward the narrative. But this is fine.

To be honest, I like Zimmer's music. I like more than a few tracks on Last Samurai (not the overblown stuff though), most of The Thin Red Line (my fave of his actually), parts of Batman Begins (I know I shouldn't but I do), Gladiator (not the Holst rip-off stuff ALTHOUGH I agree with its use in the film), Thelma and Louise, Rain Man, As Good As it Gets, etc.

Finally, I respect Zimmer's intentions to help out young talent. No other composer has done as much in the Hollywood system to my knowledge.

[Morlock 11]

I agree more or less completely with the above post. I would just add, for myself, that I think one thing Zimmer does have in his scores, is a concept of 'let me try something here'. He does often try to do things differantly. Which is not to say he's remarkably original, or amazing....just that he does care about what music will do for a film, and is looking for ways to make a score fresh (in his terms).

[Richard Penna 3,695]

Finally, I respect Zimmer's intentions to help out young talent. No other composer has done as much in the Hollywood system to my knowledge.

I completely agree with every word of that post, but particularly this line. There are a great many composers who have risen from MV, moved onto more orchestral approaches and become fine artists. I don't really think that the mass use of synths affects their music as much as some may think; after all, did Zimmer himself not say that only a few cues in Pirates 3 use synth at all, and that it's his recording methods that makes some of his music sound sampled?

[vmw331 2]

Ray Barnsbury and Datameister are precisely correct!!!

In general, Zimmer writes music that is generic.....and generic = CRAP.

Williams writes music that suits every single film he's done and the amazing thing is that most of it still is a great listening experience away from the film.

Yeah, it just seems like most of the music Zimmer composes for film is like one long trailer cue. His action cues are too repetitive and it significantly lowers the quality of his work, in my opinion.

....I think I'm done with this topic

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

Zimmer can be quite good, he can also be rather dull.

I think the main thing that makes this guy so popular to work with, and it's something that I respect him for, is his work methods. He is very collaborative and is all about serving the film and the director.

[Datameister 2,044]

Ray Barnsbury and Datameister are precisely correct!!! smile.gif

In general, Zimmer writes music that is generic.....and generic = CRAP.

Well, thank you, but we're not quite in agreement, actually. I think that a lot of Zimmer's music is fairly generic, and some of is more than fairly crappish, but I do like some of it. As others have mentioned, it can be viscerally pleasing.

As a big Disneyland fan, I sometimes use a theme park analogy. Zimmer's music is stereotypically like a rollercoaster--high-powered, relentless, thrilling, but not always with a lot of subtlety or intellectual appeal. JW's music is stereotypically more like a well-done dark ride, such as the Haunted Mansion or Pirates of of the Caribbean--well-thought-out, varied, and intellectually pleasing, though not always as superficially thrilling. Ideally, music finds a happy medium between intelligence and visceral fun, and I think both of these men have achieved that medium at times, though Williams has done so much more frequently.

[Ray Barnsbury 8]

Ray Barnsbury and Datameister are precisely correct!!! smile.gif

In general, Zimmer writes music that is generic.....and generic = CRAP.

Well, thank you, but we're not quite in agreement, actually. I think that a lot of Zimmer's music is fairly generic, and some of is more than fairly crappish, but I do like some of it. As others have mentioned, it can be viscerally pleasing.

Yes, I wouldn't categorize all his music as crap either.

Ray Barnsbury

[Pieter Boelen 740]

One thing I do find with Hans Zimmer is that his music is frustrating. Frustrating in the sense that I get the idea through his music that he CAN write better music than he does. For example: The track "Up Is Down" from Pirates of the Caribbean: At World's End demonstrates what I would want the ENTIRE score for that film to sound like. But then we get a track like "I Don't Think Now Is The Best Time" which is just plain standard-Zimmer music with the PotC themes thrown into the mix. This illustrates that he CAN do it, but usually doesn't. Surprising to me is that "Up Is Down" doesn't really fit the scene in the film so much, yet "I Don't Think Now Is The Best Time" is somewhat distracting at times as well. In the Maelstrom making-of they used "Up Is Down" to underscore the maelstrom sequence, which, even more strangely, worked surprisingly well.

One thing that would greatly help Zimmer's music is he would record the orchestra normally for a change and see how that turns out. That might bring a lot of like to the music he writes that is now lost simply because of his preferred recording method.

[Morlock 11]

'Up is Down' doesn't fit the scene? I totally disagree with that. I think that just about all his PoTC music fits the films, with the possible exception of Tia Dalma's theme, but, then again, her whole character is terrible and wrong for the film.

[Red 75]

The Lion King was a great score.

[Datameister 2,044]

The Lion King was a great score.

I dunno about "great," but it's at least good. I have fond memories attached to that film and score, but every time I listen, I can't help thinking that I wouldn't like it so much if not for that sentimentality.

[John Crichton 4]

I think the main thing that makes this guy so popular to work with, and it's something that I respect him for, is his work methods. He is very collaborative and is all about serving the film and the director.

Yeah, you definately can't deny the fact that he comes off as a genuinely nice guy.

[Datameister 2,044]

Yeah, you definately can't deny the fact that he comes off as a genuinely nice guy.

And he's publicly acknowledged that he's nothing compared to Williams, too! Humility is nice.

[Wojo 2,453]

I didn't know if this should be its own topic, so I figured I'd keep it in the MV bashing/praising forum for now. I also don't know if it has been asked/answered/posted in the years since I was an active member.

But anyways.

Does anybody have any clue how to rename, resequence, and cut/paste tracks around from the single disc Pirates 1 soundtrack, to make something that more closely resembles film order? I know a few tracks that repeat themselves multiple places in the movie (skeletons tossing around Elizabeth, and then boarding the English ship come to mind), but that's nothing new in movies. JP1, Empire, and the Lord of the Rings franchises all do it, too.

If anyone knows if it's worth it to try and extract music from the DVD and how successful that is, I'd love to hear it.

If anything, just point me to any thread that discussed this earlier. I found a posting at a game site where someone said it was posted at imdb, and I looked, and found nothing. There's nothing at fommes' film order thread, either.

I know this is irritating, but I find the POTC scores to be guilty pleasures. During any given work week, I'll listen through all 3 Pirates scores and also Cutthroat Island or even Hook, so it's not like I don't know a good pirate score when I see one.

Thanks!

[Koray Savas 2,251]

One that I must point out about Zimmer is that he was NOT a teacher to John Powell, HArry Gregson-Williams nor Mark Macina nor Klaus Badelt. they had already received formal training (especially Powell and Gregson-Williams) long before they met up with Zimmer. MEdia Ventures was established by Hans to cultivate and bring new talent to the film scoring industry in a form of pay-it-forward since Stanley Myers had done the very same thing for Zimmer early in his musical life.

I'm gonna have to disagree, all those composers were trained by Zimmer, especially Harry Gregson-Williams, John Powell, and Klaus Badelt. All of Gregson-Williams' first scores were co-composed by Zimmer (i.e. Smilla's Sense Of Snow, The Whole Wide World). Powell's first score was Face/Off, a John Woo film that would have originally be composed by Zimmer. Several of Powell's early scores are produced by Zimmer (i.e. Endurance). Badelt's first few scores were co-composed by Zimmer (i.e Invincible, The Pledge). So unless any of these composers did anything before collaborating with Zimmer, which they haven't, they were taught by Zimmer.

To be honest, I like Zimmer's music. I like more than a few tracks on Last Samurai (not the overblown stuff though), most of The Thin Red Line (my fave of his actually), parts of Batman Begins (I know I shouldn't but I do), Gladiator (not the Holst rip-off stuff ALTHOUGH I agree with its use in the film), Thelma and Louise, Rain Man, As Good As it Gets, etc.

I loved Batman Begins, I was happy that it wasn't "recycled" music and was something original by Zimmer for once. Then one day listening to Black Rain, the last 30 seconds of Suite B is the exact same theme in Batman Begins .

[gkgyver 1,645]

The strange thing is that even if Zimmer comes up with a new theme or a new idea once in a while, it still sounds recycled.

[Datameister 2,044]

I know a few tracks that repeat themselves multiple places in the movie (skeletons tossing around Elizabeth, and then boarding the English ship come to mind), but that's nothing new in movies.

Actually, that's not the same cue. They use the same motif, but they're somewhat different.

Does anybody have any clue how to rename, resequence, and cut/paste tracks around from the single disc Pirates 1 soundtrack, to make something that more closely resembles film order?...If anyone knows if it's worth it to try and extract music from the DVD and how successful that is, I'd love to hear it.

Pirates is a guilty pleasure for me, too. I've ripped and edited a lot of the music off the DVD and incorporated it into a chronologically-ordered soundtrack. It's fairly worthwhile; there are indeed sound effects in many parts, and I've left certain cues out for that reason alone, but there's some good ripping to be done. I can't tell you at the moment exactly where all the different parts of the OST go, but I can try to do that at some point...

Probably the most interesting part of ripping the Pirates music from the DVDs is that the rear channels contain the original recordings, with only minimal synths and percussion most of the time. If you listen to those channels alone, you'll be amazed at the underwhelming simplicity of the orchestration. Still cool, though...I keep a number of these "raw" cues as bonus tracks at the end of my POTC:TCOTBP expanded sountrack.

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

I think the main thing that makes this guy so popular to work with, and it's something that I respect him for, is his work methods. He is very collaborative and is all about serving the film and the director.

Yeah, you definately can't deny the fact that he comes off as a genuinely nice guy.

It's not just about how nice he is. But he puts in a lot of effort to serve the director.

For instance, the Batmobile chase in Batman Begins was written in sections. Because he knew this sequence would probably be reworked until late in the editing stage, fragments of music were written that could flow into one another and still be moved around (I don't know how much JNH was involved in this particular sequence). This made the music much more easier to move around if a part of the scene had to be recut. Some of the music buffs here might scoff at such a composing method, but this sort of thing is an editor's/director's dream.

[David Coscina 4]

I'm gonna have to disagree, all those composers were trained by Zimmer, especially Harry Gregson-Williams, John Powell, and Klaus Badelt. All of Gregson-Williams' first scores were co-composed by Zimmer (i.e. Smilla's Sense Of Snow, The Whole Wide World). Powell's first score was Face/Off, a John Woo film that would have originally be composed by Zimmer. Several of Powell's early scores are produced by Zimmer (i.e. Endurance). Badelt's first few scores were co-composed by Zimmer (i.e Invincible, The Pledge). So unless any of these composers did anything before collaborating with Zimmer, which they haven't, they were taught by Zimmer.

Powell and Gregson-Williams were NOT schooled in music by Zimmer and Powell had a career in England prior to Media Ventures. Just because these guys ghost wrote for Zimmer doesn't mean they were his students. I myself applied to Media Ventures back in the early '90s and to even be considered you had to have a list of film scoring credits under your belt. This really isn't a matter of opinion more than it's fact. These guys had musical training and experience long before they met up with Zimmer and Media Ventures. Plain and simple.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Powell and Gregson-Williams were NOT schooled in music by Zimmer and Powell had a career in England prior to Media Ventures. Just because these guys ghost wrote for Zimmer doesn't mean they were his students. I myself applied to Media Ventures back in the early '90s and to even be considered you had to have a list of film scoring credits under your belt. This really isn't a matter of opinion more than it's fact. These guys had musical training and experience long before they met up with Zimmer and Media Ventures. Plain and simple.

Had musical training long before Zimmer? The only thing I know Harry has done before Zimmer was Rambient, his band, and I don't think that was long before Hans. As for Powell, his first score was Face/Off, which is a FACT, therefore how could he have an established career before his first score?

[Morlock 11]

Harry Gregson-Williams was actually a music teacher before he came to Hollywood, teaching in the Guildhall School in London, as well as in Egypt. He knew music before meeting Zimmer.

John Powell studied in college for music in London, composed music for commercials, and even worked as an assisstant to Patrick Doyle before meeting Zimmer.

Powell and Gregson-Williams were NOT schooled in music by Zimmer and Powell had a career in England prior to Media Ventures. Just because these guys ghost wrote for Zimmer doesn't mean they were his students. I myself applied to Media Ventures back in the early '90s and to even be considered you had to have a list of film scoring credits under your belt. This really isn't a matter of opinion more than it's fact. These guys had musical training and experience long before they met up with Zimmer and Media Ventures. Plain and simple.

Indeed. Zimmer gave them an entry into film scoring, big time. Both learned how to score/orchestrate, and HGW learned how to conduct under Zimmer's aegis. But that is a far cry from shaping them as composers. They may have started scoring your typical MV film in typical MV fashion (due in no small part to Zimmer encouraging his filmmaking friends like Bruckheimer and Scott to hire upstart composers), but once they got their foot in the door, their musical identity surfaced more and more in their scores.

And it's a fact that filmmakers love working with Zimmer. And he, in turn, uses those relationships to get his proteges into the business. He's encouraged his collaborators to hire these composers. A director fo Ridley Scott's caliber doesn't start using an unknown composer like Marc Streitenfeld for no reason.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

I know Powell and Gregson-Williams have done things before, I mean that's how they ended up in composing music. But Zimmer has taught them how to use synth, which has changed Harry's life. Both composers say all the time in interviews that Hans has been their mentor.

Marc Streitenfeld is not a composer, he's been Hans Zimmer's assistant for years, dating back to Crimson Tide. Streitenfeld is doing Ridley Scott's lastest movies because of Zimmer's busy schedule.

[Morlock 11]

I know Powell and Gregson-Williams have done things before, I mean that's how they ended up in composing music. But Zimmer has taught them how to use synth, which has changed Harry's life. Both composers say all the time in interviews that Hans has been their mentor.

That's what myself and Fiery Angel are saying, in essence. Not about the Synths specifically, but under Zimmer they learned about film scoring, not composing in general. And I have never heard Gregson-Williams talk about how synths changed his life.

Marc Streitenfeld is not a composer, he's been Hans Zimmer's assistant for years, dating back to Crimson Tide. Streitenfeld is doing Ridley Scott's lastest movies because of Zimmer's busy schedule.

A. I don't know what you mean by 'He's not a composer'.

B. What you're saying has nothing to so with anything. My point was, that without Zimmer, he would certainly not get a chance at working with Ridley Scott.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

That's what myself and Fiery Angel are saying, in essence. Not about the Synths specifically, but under Zimmer they learned about film scoring, not composing in general. And I have never heard Gregson-Williams talk about how synths changed his life.

I never said Harry said that. I mean it's obvious, synth is all the man is.

A. I don't know what you mean by 'He's not a composer'.

B. What you're saying has nothing to so with anything. My point was, that without Zimmer, he would certainly not get a chance at working with Ridley Scott.

Streitenfeld doesn't compose music, he's a technical advisor. A Good Year and more recently American Gangster are the only films which he has composed music. I agree with what you're saying that without Zimmer he would have never done those Ridley Scott films.

[Morlock 11]

But he DOES compose music. That's what I don't understand about your comment. He did compose and record music for American Gangster.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

But he DOES compose music. That's what I don't understand about your comment. He did compose and record music for American Gangster.

I know that's what I said. He's a composer as of last year, and not a very good one I might add, because he has never composed music before. So maybe new or bad composer is a better term to describe him.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

There a huge difference between the term new composer and bad composer.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Maybe he's both. From what he did with A Good Year he seems like the typical Hans puppet. I'll need to hear American Gangster before I can make any final judgements.

[bondo 33]

and Ridley Scott's A Good Year

[Morlock 11]

You're gonna make your final judgement after his second score? The man had nothing to do on his first. We will get a glimpse of his talents (or lack there of) on the second.

I mean, that's like deciding John Williams sucks on account of Daddy-O and Gidget Goes to Rome.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

I'm pretty sure the man will never do a movie directed by someone that has no relation to Hans Zimmer. I think it's safe to make judgements on what he'll do with Ridley Scott's next 2 films.

[Morlock 11]

That's what people said of John Powell.

[Pieter Boelen 740]

'Up is Down' doesn't fit the scene? I totally disagree with that.

It does fit in a way, but then it doesn't fit in another way. The music seems to be more spectacular than the scene. Which is the complete opposite of the finale, where the scenes are more spectacular than the music. Still I much prefer having spectacular music in good scenes over having anything less than that.

I think that just about all his PoTC music fits the films, with the possible exception of Tia Dalma's theme, but, then again, her whole character is terrible and wrong for the film.

Most of it does fit the scene, but some of it feels a bit out of place. Most of the music I genuinely enjoy. There's just a couple of really bothersome elements. "The Kraken" is no big favourite of mine, but one could argue it does fit in a way. And the finale of Dead Man's Chest I find really annoying music-wise with the low male Crimson Tide "Hynemou" choir. That piece of music always distracts me. But then there is "The Medallion Calls" which again works wonders in the first film for Jack Sparrow's entrance. Basically I find the quality and "fittingness" of the music to vary greatly throughout the scores. Some pieces really enhance the scenes, but some are pretty distracting as well. I'm not entire sure what to think of it.