Howard Shore's An Unexpected Journey (Hobbit Part 1)

[Incanus 5,723]

Yes, yes flattery will get you everywhere!

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Nice Moderator....Moderator Inky is our friend!

(turns to Jason)

The stupid, fat Moderator hates us!

[KK 3,307]

Is it a new recording?

Sounds like a mix of Master Peregrin's Plan, The End of All Things/Felloship Reunited, and Tales That Really Matter to me.

Are you talking about the part when they land on on the Carrock?

It's definitely a new recording (with slight tweaks here and there) that combines bits of all the tracks you mentioned along with "Axe or Sword". It must have been quite the time restraint to have to rely on temp tracking so heavily.

Nice Moderator....Moderator Inky is our friend!

(turns to Jason)

The stupid, fat Moderator hates us!

Moderator Inky is tricksy precious....he will betray us...we must take him to her before its too late precious...yes...

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Atleast the parts before that, the awesome new rendition of Nature's Reclamation and the actual Eagle Flight are brand new and original.

[gkgyver 1,646]

Well, according to gkgyver, it sounds like new recordings, and I'm willing to believe him. Could be wrong, though.

It's hard to tell because often the orchestrations are just so similar. "Master Peregrin's Plan" is definitely a new recording, as well as "The Tales That Really Matter" because the tempo is different, and so are the orchestrations (ever so slightly).

The action music for Gollum fighting the goblin is a new recording too, as I believe are all cues from Riddles In The Dark. I just think PJ placed and edited the recordings to his liking.

Gandalf and Galadriel is definitely tracked though, I think.

[KK 3,307]

I agree. Gandalf and Galadriel are tracked. The Gollum scene is basically a very messy edit of new recordings of both new, original material and old material.

I would have really liked to hear the original music in the Gollum scene, flows much better.

[Faleel 5,404]

I think some of the original music would have been a bit too loud and took away some of the dark atmosphere, but thats just me.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Sigh!

Bloodball....GET HIM!

[Faleel 5,404]

I just felt it felt too "Concert-y/Hugo-y" and not enough LOTR (not that what we got was the best solution).

[gkgyver 1,646]

Well, technically, we don't know where the original music was placed or how and if that scene was changed after the movie split. The OST version is too short for the scene now.

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[gkgyver 1,646]

How is it easy to tell? The orchestration is 99% the same, and the same orchestra that performed LotR also performed the Hobbit.

How does listening to the symphony make tracking easy to spot? It's not like the symphony recording was used in the film.

The Rivendell scene is most certainly tracked. And even if it isn't, it's an exact copy.

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[gkgyver 1,646]

If Jackson asks for this or that theme from LotR to be included, or (unlikely) Howard Shore thought it needed that feeling of familiarity, Shore is of course going to replicate the sound of LotR and those pieces. And having the same orchestra play it under the "baton" of Howard Shore does indeed make it almost indistinguishable.

For instance, if it wasn't for the missing horn counterpoint, one could easily think the Gondor Reborn theme at the end could be a recording from RotK.

[KK 3,307]

How is it easy to tell? The orchestration is 99% the same, and the same orchestra that performed LotR also performed the Hobbit.

How does listening to the symphony make tracking easy to spot? It's not like the symphony recording was used in the film.

The Rivendell scene is most certainly tracked. And even if it isn't, it's an exact copy.

Sorry, I didn't mean to come across cocky in any way. I just thought it would be fairly simply to tell if it's exactly the recording, this may just be my ignorance. Listening to the DVD if the symphony is probably a poor example but that was incredibly differently played, some players quite disappointed me actually playing the phrases so differently. I meant the passage I listened to (the original FOTR prologue from the OST) from the symphony I could tell sounded different even though it was the same music. Surely after 10 years and with different players they wouldn't be able to make parts sound exactly the same, especially if we played them after each other and inspected in detail

Thing thing about any studio recordings is that you have an immense amount of control over how you want the music to sound. When you have the same orchestra playing, with the same composer/conducter and the same sound engineering crew, it isn't the slightest bit difficult to recreate any individual piece from LotR.

One can tell there are recordings of old material through the subtle use of different orchestrations, and then there are certain pieces that sound exactly alike, which one can attribute to the fact it's an old recording.

I just seem to like the idea of thinking its all new recordings opposed to copied and pasted, makes me appreciate the work put in more. I haven't actually listened through this was to check if anything is tracked, so I couldn't say if it is. I just wondered if anyone already had done and knew.

The thing is, Shore had an original score planned for this which eventually got torn apart due to last minute changes and the lack of time to work around it. So there were many bits from old scores recorded to the new footage, and then Jackson likely took his pick between the new recordings and the old and pasted them on screen.

.

[Jay 37,472]

If Jackson asks for this or that theme from LotR to be included, or (unlikely) Howard Shore thought it needed that feeling of familiarity, Shore is of course going to replicate the sound of LotR and those pieces. And having the same orchestra play it under the "baton" of Howard Shore does indeed make it almost indistinguishable.

Why did you put "baton" in quotes?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Shore conducts without a baton.

[Jay 37,472]

Oh right, I totally forgot! Woops!

[Faleel 5,404]

Are you sure? I thought I remembered him using it in the EE ROTK music documentary, when rehearsing the EE version of Shieldmaiden of Rohan, though much more fluid and "handy" than how Williams etc. would.

[gkgyver 1,646]

I don't remember that.

[Jay 37,472]

See for yourself:

[Faleel 5,404]

that aint ROTK.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Jay 37,472]

I posted a video that shows Shore conducting without a baton. It didn't matter what score it was

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Incanus 5,723]

Complication upon complication, confusion upon confusion. Small wonder we can get anything done in this place!

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Incanus 5,723]

Oh but I am the befuddled one around here. I am supposed to add to the confusion. What's your excuse?

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Incanus 5,723]

On the matter at hand. I guess Shore is proficient conducting with or without a baton. I do not know which is his preference but I have seen him conduct more without it than with it.

I have been listening to the Hobbit score a lot lately and one of the absolute favourite moments is the Out of the Frying-Pan in its entirety. It is definitely the action highlight of 2012. We seem to take such things from Shore for granted but it is a brilliant and rousing action finale to the score with enormous kinetic drive to it. The Warg theme of course provides much of the punch in the cue but the whole musical story we go through in those near 6 minutes is astoundingly powerful and driving. Such ferocity.

[TheTennisBallKid 17]

Haven't watched the EE music documentaries in ages, but if I'm not mistaken Shore has gone back and forth over the years on using/not using a baton, but generally prefers not. I believe he has spoken about it at least once in an interview, but goodness knows if I remember when/where.

Moon Runes

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[gkgyver 1,646]

Does anyone else actually prefer the film version of Radagst The Brown over the OST piece?

[Faleel 5,404]

I like both, the Album version, would have deffo made the current scene wierder. can't say for sure about the original cut of the scene.

[Incanus 5,723]

I have to admit the album version is my preference. The whole quirky atmosphere is simply unique in the score. I also love the choral work. The film version is much more subdued and conventional in comparison.

[KK 3,307]

As Incanus said, the album version is far more vibrant and unique in its applications of musical colours. It's just a lot more fun to listen to. The film version, not so much,

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Faleel 5,404]

Actually Radagast's themes appear in Warg Scouts, and White Council.

[Incanus 5,723]

Yes the same rapid cyclical string figures that are at the heart of Radagast's musical material appear both in the OST and the film version and the film version Bunny Sled scene also has them if I remember correctly. The Radagast material also appears in those scenes Faleel mentioned above (although I would argue that the motif heard in the White Council is actually what I call A Shadow Over Mirkwood theme, which shares the up-and-down swaying string patterns with Radagast's Theme but it is topped by the eerie melody in the chorus, also appearing in Radagast the Brown track as the wizard sees the corruption of the forest) and also at the end of Hill of Sorcery where the escape is scored by a frantic variation on the same string idea. In the film of course his theme doesn't appear in the Warg chase for one reason or another. PJ must not have liked it too much.

I have to say I have not had time lately to listen to the film version of the Radagast the Brown closely but what I remember is that Shore sneakily weaves the same string figures into the music as we see Radgy running through the woods at the beginning of the scene.

[tannhauser 101]

The Radagast counterpoint is missing from warg scouts in the film. In fact I believe that particulr motif is missing from the film altogether. It seems the radagast scene was changed and had to be completely rescored, and as the theme didnt fit in the scene any more, it was also understandably dropped from warg scouts.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[Incanus 5,723]

Doug answered one of Faleel's question in his blog. He was asking if the melody appearing at the beginning of Moon Runes is Fate of the Ring theme when the company meets Elrond. Doug's answer was short "It's not. Just auditory pareidolia. "

Which means that we are obviously over-interpreting some of this stuff as I (and many others too) have wondered this and now it turns out there is superficial similarity but there is no conscious reference to the theme there.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[gkgyver 1,646]

I prefer to call it a common musical figure.

[Incanus 5,723]

Too common for obsessive theme detectives, who comb through these scores millisecond by millisecond.

But this reminds me of the misapprehension of Nature's Reclamation appearing in the Parth Galen sequence when Merry and Pippin lure the Uruk-hai away from Frodo. For years I thought it was Nature's Reclamation until Doug refuted it despite highly similar progression of the idea. Just a musical coincidence, not the composer's original intention.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Incanus 5,723]

A Hobbit Fuckin' Understanding you say. A new motif? Brilliant BB! Good ears!

[Faleel 5,404]

You need "a typing master's understanding".