Howard Shore's An Unexpected Journey (Hobbit Part 1)

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[KK 3,307]

I don't think that's the theme, just a common rising figure. But the theme does have more appearances in film.

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[Alan 689]

Not sure if it has been mentioned already (sorry if it has) but it sounds like the production diaries on the bluray release have added music. Mostly unreleased stuff by the sounds of it!

[Jay 37,364]

It was pointed out a while ago. The music in all the production diaries (well except the last few ones that already had Hobbit music in them) have been completely removed, and replaced by music tracked in from the Hobbit score. I haven't had time to analyze any of it yet. Sadly since the production diaries are only presented in stereo, there isn't too much that can be done to remove the voices

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[KK 3,307]

That's how I've always seen it actually. I've always looked at it as the B phrase of the theme (sort of like the B phrase of Hedwig's Theme).

It does have a solitary moment in film, when he storms away from Thorin in frustration (at the abandoned farm). Although I don't recall if the primary phrase showed up after.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[KK 3,307]

That's how I've always seen it actually. I've always looked at it as the B phrase of the theme (sort of like the B phrase of Hedwig's Theme).

THEN WHY DIDN'T YOU SAY SO IN YOUR REVIEW? In it, you say "his secondary theme". That's poor reviewing, if you ask me!

That was back when Doug called it such so I just wrote it like that. I was then too lazy to go back and change the sheet music samples accordingly

Maybe in a future revision...

[Faleel 5,349]

It does appear the end of the cue.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Apologies if this was mentioned elsewhere.

but HDtracks is offering The Hobbit as a 44.1 24 bit lossless download.

https://www.hdtracks.com/index.php?file=catalogdetail&valbum_code=HD794043164743

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[KK 3,307]

You made me believe for a second...

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Nice way to turn good news into a disappointment!

Asshole!

[KK 3,307]

Curse you! Curse you both!!

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Now hold on for a second!

The news I posted is factual and true!

[KK 3,307]

I suppose I should spare you from my wrath with my usual forgiving and merciful nature, but you set up the foundation for Bloodboal's ill conceived act of evil...how do I know you weren't Bloodboal's puppet all along?

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Incanus 5,715]

Oh what a tangled web you weave,

When first you practice to deceive!

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Bunch of morons!

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

No one interested in this?

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Incanus 5,715]

In all honesty I do not know if I could distinguish the difference between the CD quality and high definition on my stereo or my quite regular set of headphones.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

CD quality is enough for me. Beyond that, it's just gimmicks. The audio equivalent of 3D.

That is actually not true.

The correct equivalent would be DVD versus Blu-Ray.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Nonsense!

If you don't have a HD or FullHD TV then there is no difference between DVD or Blu-Ray

The problem is not with the format or resolution, it's the equipment you play it with.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Sure you can. with a HDMI to SCART adapter.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

You know its true. How nice.

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Jay 37,364]

Well I just moved a bunch of posts about the DOS score over to the DOS score thread, since one was just created the other day. So, head on over to the DOS thread for any further discussion of DOS, and the new orchestrators!

http://www.jwfan.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=23304

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[Jay 37,364]

For those of you that haven't heard, they've announced a few of the new scenes for AUJ extended edition. There'll be more to the prologue, the shire, goblin town and rivendell (as far as we know now). Whilst I can understand some are worried about the dwarves bad behaviour at rivendell to the elves, I am really excited for the new scenes. I'm very much looking forwards to the new music for the shire as hopefully well here more bilbo material. I love the goblin theme at the start of 'Underhill' which only plays roughly once so maybe well get more. Also more time for prologue material can only be a good thing.

We've been talking about the new scenes in the thread for the movies

http://www.jwfan.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=11433&p=912732

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[Jay 37,364]

Ah, gotcha.

Of course, this is the the thread to discuss the DOS score, not the AUJ score

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[Incanus 5,715]

To be honest, I always thought the Thorin/Azog scene was about Thorin's heroism and not Azog. Therefor I had no doubt that the music should reflect that.

I thought the scene was about revenge, it didn't seem heroic to me he was potentially putting the others in danger.

Sorry, I've been reading this thread again and restrained from replying to so any old comments. It's great looking through with hindsight, did anyone actually make the proposed fan edits? I'd love to see more of the scenes with alternate music (see a few on YouTube).

The scene is perhaps a bit about both. Thorin is full of resentment for his sworn enemy who he finds out is alive and his honor (and perhaps duty) demands him to avenge his kin and slay Azog once and for all. The orc is indeed the cause of so many deaths of his kin and race. He is also driven by pride and arrogance, which causes his fall, the head long charge heroic yes but also extremely foolhardy and it sets his comrades in danger. Shore's first take (heard on the OST) reflects this heroism born out of different things, pride, honor, duty, foolhardiness. The music sets up the heroism on a grand scale and creates anticipation in the audience but it is a red herring as the composer creates false expectation which then like Thorin's overconfidence leads to a sudden downfall. But the focus is on the dwarves and dwarven qualities.

The final version with the Ringwraith music also taps into the negative emotions of the scene and Thorin's pride but broadcasts more clearly that his charge is doomed from the start. It tells us combined with shots of Azog that Thorin is going to be defeated. Also the Ringwraith music connects to Azog's point of view, his strength and connection with the larger evil forces and his moment of triumph and also portends doom and gloom much like it did in the Lord of the Rings, being the more forceful of Mordor's themes. For people more knowledgeable about the music of LotR it might have also been a head scratching moment of thematic dissonance but I doubt that these folks were on PJs mind when he decided to use this theme to get his message across to the audience.

So it is a 180 degree turn scoring-wise. Or that is how I see it anyway.

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[Incanus 5,715]

You sound as if you liked the nazgul statement, listening back its a very exciting reworking of the theme regardless of the context. I was a little confused during that scene but it didn't anger me. I pointed it out to my friends and not a single one noticed, even after our recent LOTR marathon. I'm ashamed to say I didn't notice any of the other so called 'tracked music'/redecorated material not even Gondor Reborn.

I have to say though that Gondor Reborn and Witch King being called 'fourth age of middle earth' themes does not mean they shouldn't be used elsewhere than the 4th age. It seems to me Doug just categorised them this way as that's when they appear in LOTR, during the climax. I don't think Shore thought about it as the fourth age Witch King theme, merely the Witch King theme and the same to Gondor Reborn (which he did not necessarily name it that way). If Dougs book never came out, there wouldn't be all this complaining (well maybe still to the nazgul quote)! Of course I'm happy as heck it did, and can't wait for the next one.

No I actually didn't approve the Ringwraith theme at all but what can you do about it. It sounds odd to my ears still but we do have the original version with the dwarven choir on the OST so we didn't actually lose anything (except perhaps some momentarily peace of mind for the use of an odd theme for that moment.)

As for the Gondor Reborn, that is another really confusing usage of a theme. It is clearly a theme for Gondor, built out of Minas Tirith Theme, so I don't think it should have anything to do with Thorin's and Bilbo's small meeting of minds. The Witch King/Orcs Theme is perhaps more malleable in meaning although it does have Fourth Age potential and meant for the climax of that particular story. When specific themes start to become fluid again and lose their connection to the original leitmotific origin and meaning we might as well discard their meanings altogether and not have themes. It is like going into minute detail and put up the effort to craft something specific and intricate and then tear it down for convenience's sake.

[Smeltington 1,440]

The only music that stuck out to me on my first viewing of the film as being more or less tracked/rerecorded from LotR were Hobbit's Understanding and the Nazgul theme. At the time, the former bothered me because the scenes where it was used didn't reach the emotional heights of the ending of FotR, though it was not thematically inappropriate. Just a very liberal use of a piece of music that shouldn't be used lightly.

As for the ringwraith theme, as Incanus points out it does meet the needs of the scene in terms of mood, but it's extremely jarring since there are no ringwraiths around.

Yes, well said, Incanus. I think that sums up the frustration many of us felt who appreciated the thematic complexity of LotR.

[Incanus 5,715]

The only music that stuck out to me on my first viewing of the film as being more or less tracked/rerecorded from LotR were Hobbit's Understanding and the Nazgul theme. At the time, the former bothered me because the scenes where it was used didn't reach the emotional heights of the ending of FotR, though it was not thematically inappropriate. Just a very liberal use of a piece of music that shouldn't be used lightly.

As for the ringwraith theme, as Incanus points out it does meet the needs of the scene in terms of mood, but it's extremely jarring since there are no ringwraiths around.

Yes, well said, Incanus. I think that sums up the frustration many of us felt who appreciated the thematic complexity of LotR.

People point out that the Ringwraith doesn't always connect to them but actually if you look at its use in LotR only the Prologue of FotR and few other rare moments (like the unused segment at Amon Hen) form the exception to this. Their theme, the choral chant, is very specific to the wraiths themselves. The other accompanying motifs appear throughout for the evils of Mordor from orcs to the Nazgûl.

I guess it was a theme that fit the bill of being bold, dramatic and recognizable enough to be used as the bad guy version of the music in the Thorin/Azog face-off scene in AUJ.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

It completely took me out of the scene. Instead of focusing on Thorin, and the danger. I was like "What the fuck? Ringwraith choir???"

Even if the later films establish a connection, between Azog and the Nazgul, stating their theme in full just out of no where makes no sense at all.

[SafeUnderHill 205]