Hans Zimmer's The Lone Ranger (Disney/Intrada CD)

[TownerFan 4,983]

I don't see what's inherently wrong with collaboration in music (as long as you give credit, which I'm told Zimmer always does).

There's nothing wrong in collaboration per se, of course. Music-making and Film are two disciplines very much dependant on collaboration.

The difference here is imho that some people act more like producers than actual composers, relying A LOT on other people's talents. It's a big difference when your modus operandi is very much dependant on other people's creativity when it comes to the act of creation of music itself (i.e. composition). Film music is a large field enough to contain many different approaches, so there's nothing inherently wrong with that too. But it's right to pinpoint the difference and take it into account when evaluating the work by its own musical value.

Of course we must take into account that a lot of this is also based on the principle that film music is a commercial kind of venture. Most of the things aren't under the direct control of the composer/writer, especially when it comes to deadlines, time constraints, creative orders from people who are hiring you, etc.

[gkgyver 1,645]

I just made the name up.

That's quite an achievement, to come up with the name Helmut Schmidt, and not know who he is.

[lonzoe 18]

When has Elfman used other composers?

T.J. Lindgren wrote additional music for Epic, Frankenweenie, Real Steel and Wolfman. Don Harper and Kenneth Burgomaster composed some additional music for Ang Lee's Hulk.

Shirley Walker also wrote a few cues for Nightbreed, if I remember well.

Danny always credited everyone, btw.

Walker only wrote one cue for Nightbreed. I think it was called "Charge of the Berserkers"

You wrote a mammoth cue for NIGHTBREED and received onscreen credit - was that something that Danny insisted upon?

When Danny asked me to write for NIGTHBREED, I explained the means I had come up with to receive end credit for my composing without using the dreaded "additional music by" credit which carries with it the stigma of a partially thrown out score. I needed Danny's consent and support to get my credit and he graciously agreed to give me that support.

http://walker.cinemusic.net/interview.html

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Hmm, seems you're right - check Zanelli's Twitter. (https://twitter.com/GeoffZanelli - 2 July)

Please Zimmer, write just one score yourself, without anyone helping you. I dare you.

It's not "help," it's called collaboration.

Just when I was ready to give Zimmer credit.

Geoff Zanelli is given full credit for the arrangement. As far as the music goes, it's composed by Zimmer. Not the Overture, of course. So in this case it's exactly like Chris Tilton's arrangements for Giacchino.

I don't see what's inherently wrong with collaboration in music (as long as you give credit, which I'm told Zimmer always does).

There's nothing wrong in collaboration per se, of course. Music-making and Film are two disciplines very much dependant on collaboration.

The difference here is imho that some people act more like producers than actual composers, relying A LOT on other people's talents. It's a big difference when your modus operandi is very much dependant on other people's creativity when it comes to the act of creation of music itself (i.e. composition). Film music is a large field enough to contain many different approaches, so there's nothing inherently wrong with that too. But it's right to pinpoint the difference and take it into account when evaluating the work by its own musical value.

Of course we must take into account that a lot of this is also based on the principle that film music is a commercial kind of venture. Most of the things aren't under the direct control of the composer/writer, especially when it comes to deadlines, time constraints, creative orders from people who are hiring you, etc.

I agree with this, except for the part about relying on other people. People seem to have this idea that Zimmer is an illiterate dummy that needs other people to help him compose music (cue Gk Zimmer bash), when the truth is anything but. I think it's important to reiterate that Zimmer doesn't rely or fall back on or require help to write music. He chooses to collaborate with other musicians for artistic reasons.

Also, something I don't get is how can a composer be stuck for decades getting an "additonal music" credit and others get a co-composer credit in just a couple of months. Makes me think if there's some kind of favoritism going around inside Remote Control. Or maybe you have to be really agressive if you wanna step up in the inside chain of the company.

Probably just overthinking this.

RCP is not a company, it's a studio.

[Faleel 5,357]

What?

Goldsmith used another composer 3 times. For First Contact and Air Force One because of extremely tight scheduling, and Looney Tunes because he was dying.

Star Trek TMP.....

Courage and Ian Fraser (David Newman too I think?)

Ah yes. 4 scores out of sooooo many.

Hence the "sometimes"

[Richard Penna 3,694]

Hmm, seems you're right - check Zanelli's Twitter. (https://twitter.com/GeoffZanelli - 2 July)

Please Zimmer, write just one score yourself, without anyone helping you. I dare you.

It's not "help," it's called collaboration.

Just when I was ready to give Zimmer credit.

Geoff Zanelli is given full credit for the arrangement. As far as the music goes, it's composed by Zimmer. Not the Overture, of course. So in this case it's exactly like Chris Tilton's arrangements for Giacchino.

What's the difference between composing and arranging in this case? Are you saying Zimmer wrote all the 'original' bits but Zanelli was the one who strung it together to match the film?

[publicist 4,643]

I agree with this, except for the part about relying on other people. People seem to have this idea that Zimmer is an illiterate dummy that needs other people to help him compose music (cue Gk Zimmer bash), when the truth is anything but. I think it's important to reiterate that Zimmer doesn't rely or fall back on or require help to write music. He chooses to collaborate with other musicians for artistic reasons.

But Koray, let's be realistic here for a moment: Hollywood is now in a transitional state (foreign markets will become the big thing in the future with BO in Asia much more important than the US), what they do now (desperately) to keep the cash-flow going is simple: they make lowest-common-denominator kiddie fare like MOS, IRON MAN and what have you till the market crashes. No filmmakers worth their salt take movies like this too serious (other than to boister income) and composers as Zimmer do not either (apart from marketing lip service).

Zimmer farms stuff like this out because a) most of it is white noise anyway (films are seriously overscored to the point where the music doesn't contribute anything) and b) because he never could handle a more complex piece of music in the short time spans he gets for it. He always took on collaborators even back in the BIRD ON A WIRE days just to get playable music for an orchestra on date X. If you really think Zimmer (or Edelman etc.) just do it for 'artistic reasons' you just are deluding yourself.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

No man. Zimmer has the chops! He just want to throw a bone to his fellow composers!

[publicist 4,643]

You are right as always, precious!

[TownerFan 4,983]

I think the main factor at play here is that most Hollywood film composers are now acting more like producers and less like craftsmen.

In the old days, people like Goldsmith, Williams, Barry, Bernstein, Mancini etc. were working within an industry-driven field as well, but there was a lot more creative space for them to shape their own voices, because the Music Department mentality was very protective about them. They probably felt more like mere artisans than "wannabe art composers", but all of them were able to develop a personal style and attitude, mostly because they had rock-solid musical backbone at their disposal. For example, when Alfred Newman was head of 20th Century Fox Music Dept. he was adamant in giving composers like Friedhofer, Herrmann and North all the time they need and created a space where they could write what they felt it was best for the film. He also acted as liason in terms of the film's dramatic needs, so he was surely a helping hand on various circumstances, but he let everyone go their own way. Yes, there were also teams of orchestrators (and sometimes arrangers as well) to help the work going as smooth and fast as possible, but more or less composers themselves were able to put their own unique stamp on it. In the end, it was still a work made mainly of pencil, paper, stopwatch and moviola, so the composer didn't need to organize the work as a team.

Today's film composers instead are working within a industry frame that obliges them to organize and structure their work with a team mentality, much like a record producer in charge. They have large crews of personal assistants, arrangers, orchestrators, MIDI & synth programmers, Pro Tools engineers, tech experts and so on. They also have the occasional help from a friend composer and/or protegé. This kind of set-up is today REQUIRED to get things done in timely fashion and to meet the producers' expectations. I'm not talking about the scoring crew on stage (which today is however much larger than it was 30 or 40 years ago, but that's mainly because of technology), but about people who are part of an established team involved in the actual creation of the music.

That of course doesn't mean that every film composer of today is an unimaginative individual that always rely on other people. A lot of highly talented people were able to discern their own personal voices within such a system (James Newton Howard and Danny Elfman are probably the two best examples, imho). But this is something that imho marks a clear line between what the job of film composer was back in the day of the old studio system and how it is today.

[Jay 37,370]

Hollywood is now in a transitional state (foreign markets will become the big thing in the future with BO in Asia much more important than the US)

Is this true?

[publicist 4,643]

I just read an interesting new book by Hollywood producer Lynda Obst where it is pretty much all spelled out by important Fox and Warner CEO's like Peter Chernin of Fox (he fathered TITANIC and AVATAR with Cameron).

The gist seems to be that all Hollywood majors are now busy building oversea connections to get a foot in the door of national production in China, Russia etc. because there is the widespread notion that the Hollywood system will crash within the next years - it's just not profitable anymore even if record BO's suggest otherwise. Since the important dvd market has dried up, most studios hang by the bare thread of their formula franchises - if the huge asian market rejects a movie like MOS (or the party says it's no play during summer months because of national quota), it's looking seriously grim and they play this game with every big picture.

So what will happen in the next years is that you will see a lot more asian etc. remakes of successful US pictures and see a lot more companies called Fox Mumbai Divison or Warner 兄弟 co-producing films with little US BO potential. Though i doubt dumb movies will vanquish, it may at least allow for less noisy franchise movies and more movies with smaller budgets like this years' MAMA or MUD.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

Or maybe we'll get things like that:

[publicist 4,643]

We sure will and US companies will be as proud of it as they were of

[Jay 37,370]

I just read an interesting new book by Hollywood producer Lynda Obst where it is pretty much all spelled out by important Fox and Warner CEO's like Peter Chernin of Fox (he fathered TITANIC and AVATAR with Cameron).

The gist seems to be that all Hollywood majors are now busy building oversea connections to get a foot in the door of national production in China, Russia etc. because there is the widespread notion that the Hollywood system will crash within the next years - it's just not profitable anymore even if record BO's suggest otherwise. Since the important dvd market has dried up, most studios hang by the bare thread of their formula franchises - if the huge asian market rejects a movie like MOS (or the party says it's no play during summer months because of national quota), it's looking seriously grim and they play this game with every big picture.

So what will happen in the next years is that you will see a lot more asian etc. remakes of successful US pictures and see a lot more companies called Fox Mumbai Divison or Warner 兄弟 co-producing films with little US BO potential. Though i doubt dumb movies will vanquish, it may at least allow for less noisy franchise movies and more movies with smaller budgets like this years' MAMA or MUD.

Wow, interesting.

BTW, you say the dvd market has dried up... what do you mean? Is it because people are (legally) streaming movies now more than buying physical discs?

[publicist 4,643]

I'm just paraphrasing but it seems dvd sales kept the industry alive for several years and meant a 9 % profit average for a standard movie company whereas now it's down to 5% and less largely to the breakdown of the dvd market (due to factors like VOD, streaming in general, piracy, which isn't nearly as potent a factor as studios claiming it to be).

So they try to find new venues to boost profits and international markets is the last straw - though i ask myself if the profits they reap from services like Netflix or Hulu are just peanuts...

[Jay 37,370]

I would think the studio would keep more $ from each digital sale than DVD/blu sale, no? Because there's less overhead?

[publicist 4,643]

Good question, here in Germany you pay between 6 and 10 € for a digital purchase but iTunes & amazon keep a fraction - a hefty one certainly. The old problem that they ignored the web for so long and didn't establish their own media platform is haunting them now.

[Ollie 1,059]

We've seen examples, the addition of scenes for IM3, Paramount pushing Trek overseas and the sequel to Tintin getting the go ahead even though the US box office was dismal.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

The overseas box office for Tintin was great though

[Koray Savas 2,251]

I thought the international market has been essential for quite awhile now. It's a major reason why Braff wasn't able to fund his new film in Hollywood. He explained the details and how studios determine foreign market returns in a radio interview not too long ago.

It's safer for a studio to produce a $150 million superhero film than a $30 million drama.

[Ollie 1,059]

Koray beat me to it.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Hmm, seems you're right - check Zanelli's Twitter. (https://twitter.com/GeoffZanelli - 2 July)

Please Zimmer, write just one score yourself, without anyone helping you. I dare you.

It's not "help," it's called collaboration.

Just when I was ready to give Zimmer credit.

Geoff Zanelli is given full credit for the arrangement. As far as the music goes, it's composed by Zimmer. Not the Overture, of course. So in this case it's exactly like Chris Tilton's arrangements for Giacchino.

What's the difference between composing and arranging in this case? Are you saying Zimmer wrote all the 'original' bits but Zanelli was the one who strung it together to match the film?

What's the difference? One is composing and one is arranging! Don Davis arranged the Jurassic Park theme for the third film. He incorporated it into his own original music. Geoff Zanelli took the William Tell Overture and incorporated it into Zimmer's music.

[Richard Penna 3,694]

Then if it was Zimmer's music to begin with, why does someone else have to come in and 'arrange' it? He's perfectly capable.

Again, unless you're under serious time constraints (i.e. Pirates), I just don't see why Zimmer can't write a score entirely by himself.

My cynical answer is that producers want his name on as many productions as possible, so he takes primary credit while another composer or two do the meat of the work.

[Wycket 36]

I thought the international market has been essential for quite awhile now. It's a major reason why Braff wasn't able to fund his new film in Hollywood. He explained the details and how studios determine foreign market returns in a radio interview not too long ago.

It's safer for a studio to produce a $150 million superhero film than a $30 million drama.

Of course that is also the very thing killing Hollywood. Too much money being put into single projects (like the $250 mil plus for Long Ranger) that leads to a sort of betting the farm mentality. While more often than not they can succeed with this model, eventually it will backfire enough that it will do serious damage. Disney should be well aware of that by now.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

After John Carter and The Lone Ranger, I'm sure their budgets for non-franchise IPs will be severely cut down. Shame.

[Richard Penna 3,694]

You don't need a $250 million budget to make a good blockbuster.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Koray beat me to it.

This would not have happened 2 years ago!

You are slipping old man!

[The Psycho Pianist 216]

The timbre of the whole soundtrack is too similar to Rango. It's like he just opened the Rango project file on his computer, blanked it but kept the same temp VST's. Bit disappointing really, I was hoping for more of a POTC serious sound.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

I find it to be quite the opposite actually. As Zimmer said, Rango was the parody, this is the real deal. There are some truly beautiful moments in this score, slight nods to several styles of Westerns, and just a more expansive sound overall.

[indy4 155]

My mom surprisingly saw this movie. She told me "there wasn't any real music until the end."

[A24 4,344]

You don't need a $250 million budget to make a good blockbuster.

Hmm, people already think like film studios and producers. I long for the time when films were made purely because someone believed in it.

Alex - listening to The Long Ranger on spotify

[Jay 37,370]

Long?

[Ollie 1,059]

It's the porn parody, Tonto is a woman and she shows the masked man exactly what kemo-sabe means.

[chuck 154]

...Tonto is a woman and she shows the masked man exactly what kemo-sabe means.

Reminds me of this bit:

[Wojo 2,453]

I like that ride off into the sunset better.

[The Psycho Pianist 216]

I find it to be quite the opposite actually. As Zimmer said, Rango was the parody, this is the real deal. There are some truly beautiful moments in this score, slight nods to several styles of Westerns, and just a more expansive sound overall.

I agree that it is musically different but the sound palette is too similar. Right down to the accordion, out of tune piano and staccato synthesised flute sounds. Some of the tracks are also terribly synthesised - I know Hans likes to put lives performances through his Marshall but this time I'm pretty sure all of the horn sections are literally just complete synths (see 2 minutes onwards in track 7).

[Jay 37,370]

Intrada just put up a preorder page for The Lone Ranger. It's the same 11 track program and cover as the digital version

http://store.intrada.com/s.nl/it.A/id.8155/.f

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Bollocks.

[Jay 37,370]

Told ya

[The Psycho Pianist 216]

The last track (Home) is magnificent, I have to say. Reminiscent of the late 90's, early 00's ZImmer.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

The whole score is excellent. I'd say it's Zimmer's best since Sherlock Holmes.

[Richard Penna 3,694]

It's his first I've purchased since Angels & Demons.

[Ollie 1,059]

I just want track 10.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

As great as the deconstruction and arrangement of the overture is, what really makes that cue is when Zimmer's theme kicks in when Tonto's on the ladder.

[Ollie 1,059]

What part of the cue does it occur at?

[Koray Savas 2,251]

A short rendition of the theme at 5:49 of this video. Then you can listen from 6:49 for it enter in its awesome bold statement at 7:03. Matches the film flawlessly. The whole set-piece is really well done if not a bit Jungle Chase-y with its mixed use of CGI. Seeing the film though you can tell where the budget went, and it was in the massive train sequences. I think you'd enjoy for the film for what it is, Mark. Just don't expect a traditional western.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LiaXIAwemk

[Ollie 1,059]

Actually it starts at 4:42.

But yeah it's nice.

[Wojo 2,453]

The cue starts out pretty cool and fun, but it got tiring. I think it's too slow and is too repetitive. I know I need to give it another chance longer than five minutes, but I wouldn't want this track to make me sick of Rossini's overture.

[chuck 154]

And here's the featurette: