The Themes of Howard Shore's The Hobbit

[BloodBoal 7,538]

Yeah, in AUJ, that is clearly the same motif.

In the bit you mentioned in DOS, I don't think it's that motif.

[Jay 37,370]

Sounds like just a generic building device to me, nothing thematic about it at all imo

[Faleel 5,357]

Just curious BB, what is the difference that you are hearing between the two?

[Jay 37,370]

I don't think it represents anything, or is consciously used by Shore to link anything together. Just sounds like a generic compositional device to me >shrug<

[Faleel 5,357]

nothing thematic about it at all imo

It appears more than once in both Hobbit scores.

It almost never (I would say never, but I know someone would find it if I did) appears in LOTR.

I would say its a thematic generic building device

If Cruelty of the Orcs (Both TTT and ROTK versions, ROTK version moreso) can be classified as a theme/motif, than I believe this can be classified as a theme/motif.

[Jay 37,370]

I'll leave this one to the musically trained to figure out.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Faleel 5,357]

Actually, the bit in The Forest River sounds like the beginning of the Woodland Realm theme to me.

If you used those technical terms..... I would have to ask you to translate into english

The first two notes of both of those bits are similar, but the last two notes of the Forest River bit veer off into a different direction.

In my limited musical view, its the same four notes from AUJ to DOS.

[Incanus 5,715]

It sounds a bit like the "rising chords of Doom" (as I like to call it) Shore uses frequently in these scores (and many many others) but I don't think it was ever mentioned in the liner notes or Doug's book as specifically thematic.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Incanus 5,715]

Why does everything has to be "of Doom" when it comes to Shore's music?

Get with the programme BB. Doom is the new cool!

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[Incanus 5,715]

I did some experimenting with the dwarf themes, and how they could interact or go together with the Dwarrowdelf theme. The mockup is not really refined, hope you look past that: http://www.file-upload.net/download-8570961/Dwarf-Themes.flac.html

Great work (as usual) Georg! I really like the way you intertwined the Dwarven themes. I doubt we'll hear Dwarrowdelf theme in the TABA in conjunction with the others but this little experiment shows how strongly these ideas are interrelated in Shore's writing. Kudos!

[KK 3,307]

Just curious, is this motif listed (I am sure it is, I just do not know your title for it):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_pvVwJE3qY

0:00 to 0:02 or 0:03

it plays in a lot of the DOS action music.

Thanks for sharing that clip. Not having played AUJ in a while, I forgot how bloody brilliant the aleatoric work and performances were in those cues. The aleatoric performances in DoS don't hold up to that brilliant brass section!

As for the "motif" you're referring to, Jason, BB and Incanus (and any others who mentioned it here) are right. It's just a technique that Shore likes to use a lot, relying on those seething minor tetrachords to build up tension. He did it a lot in LotR too, but a motif, it ain't.

[Jay 37,370]

Do you think Shore purposely did less aleotoric writing in DOS because of the orchestra he knew would be used?

[KK 3,307]

Shore still used plenty of aleatoric writing in DoS, but it takes more a back seat and is used more subtly.

It's very possible that this was done because of the orchestra, since the LPO are much more familiar with Shore's "manifesto" and how he expects his aleatoric stuff to be performed. Another reason may also be the fact that he wouldn't be there at the podium. Without Shore there, he has much less control on how those passages would be interpreted and where Conrad Pope may expect them to be played one way, Shore may expect them to be played another way to match more closely whatever plays in his own head. So ultimately it was probably a better idea that he rely less on those techniques (even though there's still a lot of it DoS), than he did in AUJ.

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

The aleatory in DOS is different, there's no doubt about it. Apart from some scalding brass moments in The Hunters, and the mounting tension in The Nature of Evil, I don't hear much that has the same feeling of the previous 4 scores' aleatoric moments. Mostly, I'd put that down to this being a different ensemble with a different conductor. I mentioned this before, and Doug kind of said it wasn't the case, but to me there was definitely a Pope/Williams influence on the way some of the unmetered stuff was notated and performed. A lot of the patterns used are less relatively diatonic/scalar than before, for instance those used in that awesome and tragically dialed-out build up in Gandalf the White, and much more dense/chromatic, like the Dementor stuff. Of course there's nothing that says that couldn't have been Shore's intention all along.

[Faleel 5,357]

AUJ's aleatoric stuff seemed different than LOTR to me, more "harsh"

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

Definitely, but still in the same vein as LOTR, to my ears.

[KK 3,307]

Yes. AUJ just seemed like a continuation/evolution of Shore's style. Stuff like the Goblintown music was Shore pushing his familiar techniques to the limit.

DoS definitely sounds different, and as TGP said, its probably because of the interpretation by a different conductor and orchestra.

[jonwilliams 0]

There's a shared cue from FOTR and AUJ that I don't see on the list. It's the cue that's heard when Gandalf looks at Thor's map on the table in FOTR. I don't remember the cue used anywhere else in the LOTR score but I was really looking forward to hearing if Shore was going to use it in the Hobbit scores (and retroactively make it look like the LOTR score is referencing the Hobbit's) I finally noticed it in AUJ during the moment where Gandalf leaves the mark on Bilbo's door.

Here are the timestamps from the FOTR Complete Recordings and the AUJ Special Edition.

FOTR 1-04 1:12-1:29

http://youtu.be/bWWhgNIAXVQ?t=1m12s

AUJ 1-02 4:18-4:27

http://youtu.be/5QcbvM0Ng1w?t=4m18s

This is how Doug describes the cue in the FOTR:CR annotated score.

"…yet another kind of expectation is articulated in a passing glance at a rather familiar looking map adorned with a dragon. Shore smiles, “It’s just a little hint of mystery and intrigue.”

[Incanus 5,715]

That particular bit was not identified as a theme as such but its appearance could be seen either as a theme or just music foreshadowing or subcontextual reference (that musical passage is after all quoted in the "LotR present time" of the frame story) much like the fireworks music for Gandalf referenced in the AUJ tying the trilogies together. Although I seem to remember that Doug Adams mentioned something about this particular bit on his blog and something of its significance but I can't for the life of me recall exactly what he wrote.

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Incanus 5,715]

Does no one think it's a bit odd that we now have a new theme for the ring wraiths known as "The Nine". The themes title suggests it is for the same purpose, I wonder whether this could be a working title that will become clear in TABA or if it makes the ring wraith theme less specific and apply to wraiths hunting rings?

I think The Nine has more to do with Gandalf's fact finding mission and the foreboding of the growing power of Sauron than the Nazgûl themselves. Doug's liner notes seem to hint at this theme being derived of Gandalf's material (His lengthier B theme specifically), a connection e.g. KK very astutely noted here even before the soundtrack's release.

[Barnald 365]

I'm interested in seeing its context in 'The House of Beorn'. The deleted scene probably entails a conversation between Gandalf and Beorn, presumably about the latter's time in captivity at Dol Guldur (or at least his exploration of the fortress).

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Jay 37,370]

I think Doug would have mentioned a separate "Heroic Bilbo" theme in his "Bilbo Primer" if there was one.

To me, those sound like (the same) variants of the normal Bilbo's Adventure Theme.

In fact, perhaps I should notate them as such in my main list, something like Bilbo's Adventure Theme (Heroic version) or something

[KK 3,307]

It's the same theme (Bilbo's Adventure), just one variant of it.

I don't think its necessary to start labeling every single variation of a leitmotif now....

[Incanus 5,715]

It's the same theme (Bilbo's Adventure), just a subtle variation.

I don't think its necessary to start labeling every single variation of a leitmotif now....

I think Stefan might have a word or two to say on this matter. Even in the current situation.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Incanus 5,715]

It's the same theme (Bilbo's Adventure), just a one variant of it.

I don't think its necessary to start labeling every single variation of a leitmotif now....

Of course, you're saying that because you're not the one who came up with a name for that variation! If it was for Music Muse, you would have come up with 15 names for each statement of Bilbo's Adventure theme, just to make you look all smart: "Oh, look at me! I've identified so many themes! I'm so clever!" Pfff...

Anyway... Thanks for the answer, LeBlanc. It's fine by me!

I'll just call it Bilbo's C-section and be done with it!

[KK 3,307]

It's the same theme (Bilbo's Adventure), just a one variant of it.

I don't think its necessary to start labeling every single variation of a leitmotif now....

Of course, you're saying that because you're not the one who came up with a name for that variation! If it was for Music Muse, you would have come up with 15 names for each statement of Bilbo's Adventure theme, just to make you look all smart: "Oh, look at me! I've identified so many themes! I'm so clever!" Pfff...

Just wait till you see what I have in store for DoS

[Wojo 2,453]

 

It's the same theme (Bilbo's Adventure), just a one variant of it. 

 

I don't think its necessary to start labeling every single variation of a leitmotif now....

 

Of course, you're saying that because you're not the one who came up with a name for that variation! If it was for Music Muse, you would have come up with 15 names for each statement of Bilbo's Adventure theme, just to make you look all smart: "Oh, look at me! I've identified so many themes! I'm so clever!" Pfff...

 

Anyway... Thanks for the answer, LeBlanc. It's fine by me!

 

I'll just call it Bilbo's C-section and be done with it!

You'd have to check Belladonna Took's belly.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

Just wait till you see what I have in store for DoS

Dear lord! I have a feeling this is going a chore to read!

[Incanus 5,715]

Just wait till you see what I have in store for DoS

Dear lord! I have a feeling this is going a chore to read!

I still have to deliver my 60+ page essay on An Unexpected Journey. You're in for a chore of Shore.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

Dear lord! This has to stop! Too many words! Too many words!

[Faleel 5,357]

Then Doug Adams' liner notes to TABA....

[Barnald 365]

This is a real long shot, but does anyone else hear something of 'The House of Durin' at about 3:00-3:32 of 'The White Council' (Extended)? It's not exactly the same as the theme we hear in DoS I'll grant you, but it would fit the context perfectly, given that they're talking about Thrain's madness and how Thorin might succumb to it. And - this is really reaching - since it was supposed to play at the start and near the end of AUJ, why not shoehorn it into the middle somewhere?

Just go easy on me okay...

[Faleel 5,357]

To me, it sounds like a variation of the CBAB bit of the Erebor theme that Gloin was talking about.

EDIT: oh, I meant the beginning of that part, not the timestamp you used.....

[Faleel 5,357]

Did anyone else notice that the DOS title card music is Smaug's theme, Smaug's Inverted theme, and the Warg motif all played at the same time?

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Incanus 5,715]

Did anyone else notice that the DOS title card music is Smaug's theme, Smaug's Inverted theme, and the Warg motif all played at the same time?

Yup. The Warg Theme and Smaug's main theme are easy to spot. The inverted theme is really buried in there though. A good catch indeed!

[Glóin the Dark 1,222]

Yeah, I like that - especially the insistent barage of four-note descending figures (Smaug and Wargs) which sort of pins those two themes together. In fact, I'd go further and juxtapose them against the other four-note descending phrase heard immediately after the transition to that scene (and which I maintain is a concluding phrase of The Shire). Overall, the music of that section of film (from transition to title screen) is bookended by emphatic, analogous figures which represent the film's two titular characters Bilbo and Smaug.

[Faleel 5,357]

I'd go further and juxtapose them against the other four-note descending phrase heard immediately after the transition to that scene (and which I maintain is a concluding phrase of The Shire).

Timestamp?

[Glóin the Dark 1,222]

The full Shire phrase: Wilderland 0:32-0:42

The specific four-note descending phrase: 0:38-0:42.

[Faleel 5,357]

AUJ 1-13 A Troll-hoard

2:14-2:19 Thorin's Pride

I am sure this was already discussed, but the last one is just WEAKNESS AND REDEMPTION/THE PITY OF GOLLUM, compare to "Keep It Secret, Keep It Safe" 4:55 - 5:07.

(BTW how was my Jim Ware impression?)

[Incanus 5,715]

AUJ 1-13 A Troll-hoard

2:14-2:19 Thorin's Pride

I am sure this was already discussed, but the last one is just WEAKNESS AND REDEMPTION/THE PITY OF GOLLUM, compare to "Keep It Secret, Keep It Safe" 4:55 - 5:07.

(BTW how was my Jim Ware impression?)

But is Thorin's Pride really more than that, a variant on the Weakness and Redemption? Wouldn't that be rather apt application for the idea in the new trilogy? The original Weakness and Redemption does not appear only by itself as we know but is also woven into other themes like Rivendell.