The Themes of Howard Shore's The Hobbit

[gkgyver 1,645]

The last two pages are exhausting to follow with logic. Damn you, Howard!

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

The last two pages are exhausting to follow with logic. Damn you, Howard!

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

But the Dwarf Lord's b phrase is not identical to the notes heard in On the Doorstep.

That's because it's a variation on the theme, not a note-by-note statement. Howard Shore does this a lot with his thematic material - augmenting or diminishing the rhythmic values, reharmonising etc.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Jay 37,369]

I know all that, I meant why did nobody look at my main post of this thread when it went up and say "hey, I don't think The Company's Adventure Theme should be listed as a separate theme, because it's really a different setting of Bilbo's Adventure".

Anyways, I still don't get why Shore would label a concert arrangement containing ONLY (supposed) Bilbo's Adventure theme as "Erebor".

I'm sure we'll find out eventually, it must have something to do with the scene this setting of the theme is/was intended for.

What do you mean? "Erebor" is a theme presentation, not written to footage... and you can see what the setting in "The World Is Ahead" was written to right here:

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B1NAd4WEjm_DZVM2N09qbDBiWk0/edit?usp=sharing

(0:12-0:41 is Bilbo's Adventure, 0:41-0:55 is what I had been calling The Company's Adventure)

[KK 3,307]

But the Dwarf Lord's b phrase is not identical to the notes heard in On the Doorstep.

That's because it's a variation on the theme, not a note-by-note statement. Howard Shore does this a lot with his thematic material - augmenting or diminishing the rhythmic values, reharmonising etc.

Indeed. Hence Erebor = "Bilbo's Adventure" variation.

Magic word, that last one.

I know all that, I meant why did nobody look at my main post of this thread when it went up and say "hey, I don't think The Company's Adventure Theme should be listed as a separate theme, because it's really a different setting of Bilbo's Adventure".

Anyways, I still don't get why Shore would label a concert arrangement containing ONLY (supposed) Bilbo's Adventure theme as "Erebor".

I'm sure we'll find out eventually, it must have something to do with the scene this setting of the theme is/was intended for.

IT WAS NOT INTENDED FOR A SCENE! IT'S A FUCKIN' THEME PRESENTATION!!

[Jay 37,369]

Right, but while I will concede that what I have been calling "The Company Adventure Theme" is really just a variation / different setting of "Bilbo's Adventure Theme", I still stand that that music in "On The Doorstep" is very specifically "Thrain's Theme", and while it may be RELATED to the Dwarf Lord's theme from AUJ, they are CLEARLY (to me) two separate themes that share some things in common (as many themes in these scores do).

Heck, when the B Section of "The Dwarf Lords" shows up in the track "An Unexpected Party", it is when Balin tells Gandalf that Thorin is late because he is meeting with the Dwarfs of the Blue Hills. Which has NOTHING to do with Thrain.

I believe that in TABA, Dain's Theme will be as related to The Dwarf Lord's as Thrain's Theme is, but we will still consider them all to be three separate themes. Heck, what we call the B Section of The Dwarf Lords might already BE Dain's Theme, leaving the A Section of that theme as a theme for all of the lords together.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Jay 37,369]

No, I have no explanation for that one.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Glóin the Dark 1,222]

that music in "On The Doorstep" is very specifically "Thrain's Theme", and while it may be RELATED to the Dwarf Lord's theme from AUJ, they are CLEARLY (to me) two separate themes that share some things in common (as many themes in these scores do).

To me, the section classified as "Thráin's Theme" (lasting from 0:00 to 0:45) is almost entirely made up of fragments of the "Erebor" melody (I would struggle even to call it a variation), with the two statements of this frequent four-note motif interposed around the middle. I'm not disputing that it is an evocation of Thráin in this setting - just that I don't hear anything significant which is exclusive to it.

[Faleel 5,355]

As you said, why would Shore wrote a theme presentation for a theme that isn't used in the film(s)? If we look at A Very Respectable Hobbit, Dreaming Of Bag-End and The Dwarf Lords, they all present themes that appear in the film or in the OST. Why would Erebor be any different? Ergo, the theme in this track is Bilbo's Adventure theme and not some other theme.

But the theme is used in The World is Ahead......

I know all that, I meant why did nobody look at my main post of this thread when it went up and say "hey, I don't think The Company's Adventure Theme should be listed as a separate theme, because it's really a different setting of Bilbo's Adventure".

Anyways, I still don't get why Shore would label a concert arrangement containing ONLY (supposed) Bilbo's Adventure theme as "Erebor".

I'm sure we'll find out eventually, it must have something to do with the scene this setting of the theme is/was intended for.

What do you mean? "Erebor" is a theme presentation, not written to footage... and you can see what the setting in "The World Is Ahead" was written to right here:

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B1NAd4WEjm_DZVM2N09qbDBiWk0/edit?usp=sharing

Can we entirely trust that video? what with the OST track being edited down slightly and all, wouldn't that mess with the sync slightly?

[KK 3,307]

Faleel, the theme heard in "The World is Ahead" IS Bilbo's Adventure. This we know for certain.

[Faleel 5,355]

So wait, you are telling me, that the tin whistle motif in A Very Respectable Hobbit, the horn motif in The World is Ahead, and the theme as Bilbo rescues Thorin is all the same theme!?

[KK 3,307]

Yes.

[Faleel 5,355]

You are nuts.

Why would Shore have two seperate arrangments for the same theme? (A Very Respectable Hobbit and Erebor)

[KK 3,307]

The same theme is set to two different settings. "A Very Respectable Hobbit" is a basic summary of all the Shire material, both old and new (with the exception of Bilbo's main theme). "Erebor" is the heroic setting of the same theme.

In "The World is Ahead", you hear the innocent tin whistle rendition of the melody as Bilbo begins his adventure but you hear the more heroic interval jumps taken up by the horns.

It's the same theme. Same melodic content. Just going through variations.

[Faleel 5,355]

Bilbo's main theme.

Bilbo's main theme is Baggins/Took, and its in there.

Whats next? Marion's theme being a variation of the Ark theme?

[KK 3,307]

Oh, you're right. Sorry, for some reason I thought it wasn't in there. My point still stands of course.

[Incanus 5,715]

Obviously the best discussion here goes on when I am sleeping! Damn!

But yes I agree with KK that Bilbo's Adventure Theme is heard in a grander variation in the Erebor track and I think it might have become the company's de facto adventure theme if Misty Mountains had not been given prominence by the film makers.

I just listened to the AUJ and the Edge of the Wild opening and realized that the variation on this Bilbo's Adventure Theme there even has the Hobbit Skip-Beat type of idea accompanying it in the high rhythmic string figures. Am I hearing things and can anyone here confirm this?

[Barnald 365]

Heck, when the B Section of "The Dwarf Lords" shows up in the track "An Unexpected Party", it is when Balin tells Gandalf that Thorin is late because he is meeting with the Dwarfs of the Iron Hills. Which has NOTHING to do with Thrain.

And the Company climbing Thror's statue has something to do with Thrain?

Well I was going to question Jason's identification of Thrain's Theme on the basis of that, but as he is adamant about it, I guess you could say that Thrain's bequeathing of the map and key have culminated in this moment.

[gkgyver 1,645]

Heck, when the B Section of "The Dwarf Lords" shows up in the track "An Unexpected Party", it is when Balin tells Gandalf that Thorin is late because he is meeting with the Dwarfs of the Iron Hills. Which has NOTHING to do with Thrain.

And the Company climbing Thror's statue has something to do with Thrain?

Again, it's the theme from The Dwarf Lords. And if we assume the naming of that theme has something to do with its use (duh), then it's a theme for the dwarf lords. Which is why it plays over the mentioning of the meeting in the Iron Hills, and why it plays lonely and forsaken over the sight of the giant statues, remeniscing former might.

[Jay 37,369]

Except that it's not the same theme in both places!

[gkgyver 1,645]

Did you read Shark's post about variations?

[Faleel 5,355]

Did you read Shark's post about variations?

I would assume he did, but it does not matter, if a reliable source has revealed to him that it is Thrain's Theme now does it?

[Jay 37,369]

Well as you know I am not musically trained at all. All I know is this. The B Section of the Dwarf Lords theme, as heard at the end of the "An Unexpected Party" track, is a 6 note section, followed by a 5 note section, follow by a 7 note section, like this:

DO do, do do, do, doooo

DO do, do do do

Do do, do, da-dum, de doo

While the bit in On The Doorstep we've been talking about is just a 4 note melody repeated twice wedged in between two Erebor statements

DO do, do do

DO do, do do

Maybe somebody can transcribed the notes played to see how many are the same but to me, just humming those passages, I am humming different things.

I'm not trying to claim they aren't related - hell, half the themes in this score are related to the other half - I'm just saying they are not identical.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

DO do, do do, do, doooo

DO do, do do do

Do do, do, da-dum, de doo

DO do, do do

DO do, do do

Sorry. Please continue.

[Jay 37,369]

As I said, I am not musically trained. I couldn't possibly tell you what notes are playing in those passages.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

As I said, I am not musically trained. I couldn't possibly tell you what notes are playing in those passages.

Well, neither can I. That doesn't make you "typing" the themes less funny.

[Smeltington 1,440]

While the bit in On The Doorstep we've been talking about is just a 4 note melody repeated twice wedged in between two Erebor statements

DO do, do do

DO do, do do

If I'm thinking of the right part, isn't that just the last four notes of the Erebor theme heard twice in a row? The Erebor theme starts with a six-note figure, and often (not always) continues with a four-note figure.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Faleel 5,355]

That sounds like a slower, more gentle rendition of the Wargs' motif to me!

Ha!

[Incanus 5,715]

Do do do or do do do not. There is no try.

[Glóin the Dark 1,222]

That was The Police with "Do do do, da da da", their gibberish classic.

~ Alan Partridge

Well as you know I am not musically trained at all. All I know is this. The B Section of the Dwarf Lords theme, as heard at the end of the "An Unexpected Party" track, is a 6 note section, followed by a 5 note section, follow by a 7 note section, like this:

DO do, do do, do, doooo

DO do, do do do

Do do, do, da-dum, de doo

While the bit in On The Doorstep we've been talking about is just a 4 note melody repeated twice wedged in between two Erebor statements

DO do, do do

DO do, do do

Maybe somebody can transcribed the notes played to see how many are the same but to me, just humming those passages, I am humming different things.

I'm not trying to claim they aren't related - hell, half the themes in this score are related to the other half - I'm just saying they are not identical.

I think it's possible to hear the On the Doorstep figure as being an allusion to the Dwarf Lords one (with its melody and harmony both simplified) rather than as something distinct, but I'm not quite convinced that's the most appropriate view. The four-note figure still seems to me to be something more primitive, which can materialise in various different themes.

(Disclaimer: I'm a musical layperson too.)

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Barnald 365]

I always thought that was the Laketown theme. I recall it being heard four times in all?

[Incanus 5,715]

DOS 2-01 Thrice Welcome

2:04-2:27 The Politicians of Laketown

Just saw that now, but isn't that the Laketown theme and not the Politicans Of Laketown theme?

Yeap that most definitely is the Lake-Town Theme.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

What politicians? Laketown doesnt have any. Only a feudal lord. That theme designation is a misnomer.

[Jay 37,369]

My name for it was "The Master of Lake-town's Theme", before I bought the SE CD and saw that Shore labeled it "The Politicians of Lake-town" is his own handwriting. Have you purchased the SE OST, Steef?

[Faleel 5,355]

How do we know that is Shore's Handwriting !?!?

[mstrox 6,651]

I wrote it in Jason's booklet, just to throw him off the scent.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

My name for it was "The Master of Lake-town's Theme", before I bought the SE CD and saw that Shore labeled it "The Politicians of Lake-town" is his own handwriting. Have you purchased the SE OST, Steef?

My sister was supposed to get it for me for Christmas, but the company she ordered it from went into receivership (bankruptcy), we are still waiting...

[Jay 37,369]

Wow, what a weird circumstance!

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

They claim is might still be delivered and since she paid for it she wants to wait before ordering it somewhere else

[Barnald 365]

What Jason has done with cataloguing the themes was the kind of thing I was hoping Doug would do in his LOTR book. Maybe if Doug does a combined 'Music of the Middle-Earth Films' omnibus (you know it will happen, and with enough exclusive material to compel us all to buy it after already purchasing both volumes separately), he could add an appendix with an exact timestamp for where each theme appears and maybe even track-by-track breakdowns by theme.

With that in mind, has anyone already done a similar thing for the LOTR scores? EDIT: Ah I see you started one and never finished it.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

With that in mind, has anyone already done a similar thing for the LOTR scores?

Happiness is just one click away: http://www.melson.nl/lotr/index.php

[SafeUnderHill 205]