Video games can never be art

[Quintus 5,399]

And not all video games are art either.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I still remain unconvinced that something interactive like a video game can be art.

Can a film be art?

They can be, but very rarely are.

But there is a difference. Games require the participation of a player or players. It is an interactive experience. A game that isn't played is a completely pointless thing.

A film is a completely finished article. One can watch it, and form an opinion about it, but it isnt possible to interact with it, or affect it in any way.

If a game can be art, does it need to be played brilliantly for it be become art?

If you play a certain game badly, are you less included to consider it art?

Ok, you are just trolling. Either that, or you have me blocked and don't see my posts.

Marian, have you played Thomas Was Alone?

I'd never heard of it, but it sounds very interesting.

[Marian Schedenig 8,211]

Can a film be art?

They can be, but very rarely are.

But there is a difference. Games require the participation of a player or players. It is an interactive experience. A game that isn't played is a completely pointless thing.

A film is a completely finished article. One can watch it, and form an opinion about it, but it isnt possible to interact with it, or affect it in any way.

You can of course watch a film completely passively, but depending on the film, you might simply end up having experience a series of sensations without understanding them. Films, like books or music, may require you to focus, to concentrate, to interpret. If that's not interaction, it's at least still a consciously active effort on the recipient's part.

If a game can be art, does it need to be played brilliantly for it be become art?

If you play a certain game badly, are you less included to consider it art?

Well then, imagine the most artful film possible. Now add the simplest element of obvious interaction possible: At some point in the film, it pauses, and you must choose option A or B to decide how it continues. The film is made in such a way that this fits together with the overall concept.

Does the simple fact that it offers you a choice make it not art? Does its being art suddenly depend on how brilliantly you choose between A and B?

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Art should at the very least rise above the mundane, the average, the everyday.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

Oh Stefan. Your one trip to the US has dulled your sensibilities. Out of your league.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interactive_art

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I dont personally believe in interactive art. Maybe thats the problem.

My US trip left no lasting damage! I had to drink a lot of strong espresso to purge the experience though.

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Wait? So there is good art and bad art according to you?

[Marian Schedenig 8,211]

I dont personally believe in interactive art. Maybe thats the problem.

Things are sometimes classified as art simply because they're unusual and interactive. I grant you as much that I think there's a bit more to art than that.

But a different thought: Music. To simplify, music in the traditional form (e.g. orchestral music entirely written by one composer). To make it receivable by an audience, it has to be performed. In a live performance, the musicians interact. And this performance very much affects the way in which the music is perceived. Does this make it not art? Or if you now argue that the performance by the orchestra is not art, but the result arriving at the audience is - would that mean that while video games that are being played are not art, but video games that are watched being played by someone can be?

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

Is a theatrical performance no longer art the moment a character interacts with the audience?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

It's an interesting question and thats where one gets into shades of grey.

Mozarts The Magic Flute is considered a work of art. If it's performed by an orchestra that plays it badly it is STILL a work of art, just badly performed.

Ofcourse with (classical) music up until the time where it was possible to make a recording it only existed in the form of written music apart from when it was being performed. It was the only way to preserve a work of art. So different then today when so much music is based very much on it's performance and recording. And they indeed become part of the "art"experience, which is why die hard Beatles fans are fanatic about how the music is remastered etc.

Is a theatrical performance no longer art the moment a character interacts with the audience?

In England the Christmas Pantomime is a piece where the performers interact with the audience.

It's very entertaining, but it's not art!

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

No. I don't.

But I do feel that for something to be art, it must be extraordinary in some way.

Sergeant Peppers Lonely Hearts Club band can be art. The latest Justin Bieber album cannot be art.

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I am so NOT wrong!

So Justin Biebers music is art?

[Marian Schedenig 8,211]

Mozarts The Magic Flute is considered a work of art. If it's performed by an orchestra that plays it badly it is STILL a work of art, just badly performed.

Ofcourse with (classical) music up until the time where it was possible to make a recording it only existed in the form of written music apart from when it was being performed. It was the only way to preserve a work of art. So different then today when so much music is based very much on it's performance and recording. And they indeed become part of the "art"experience, which is why die hard Beatles fans are fanatic about how the music is remastered etc.

So being interactive doesn't exclude something from being labelled as art.

What then differentiates video games as a whole (with all their genres and levels of quality) from films that prevents them from potentially being art?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

So being interactive doesn't exclude something from being labelled as art.

I never stated that!

[King Mark 3,631]

Just because music is an art form doesnt mean ALL music is art. Not all paintings or sculptures are art, not all movies or plays or books are art.

That's right then. Same applies to videogames but you don't play them to be able to make that determination. End of topic.

Dark Souls is a work of art. Candy Crush isn't...same thing as the way you'd look at other things

[Koray Savas 2,251]

I am so NOT wrong!

So Justin Biebers music is art?

Yes. How many times do we have to go through this?

[Marian Schedenig 8,211]

So being interactive doesn't exclude something from being labelled as art.

I never stated that!

It's the only reason you mentioned so far for classifying some films but no video games as art.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

All art is interactive. That's essentially what makes something art.

[King Mark 3,631]

I am so NOT wrong!

So Justin Biebers music is art?

Yes. How many times do we have to go through this?

It is, just like a child's drawing you hang on the fridge. But the "artistic value" is low.

Just as Zimmer's music has a lower artistic value than John Williams

I think this can be measured by more criterias that form a consensus, like what films are good enough every year to get an Oscar nomination

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Nope!

You dont know what interactive means

[King Mark 3,631]

Well if your blind you can't really value a painting as an artwork can you

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Nor can you play poker.

Your point?

[King Mark 3,631]

Even your debating techniques are starting to make no sense

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Starting to? They never did!

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I disagree! Art must stand apart from the average!

[King Mark 3,631]

A mediocre painting is a mediocre artwork .I'm not sure why you suddenly have this idea that something is art or isn't

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I'm curious, what is the definition that you use? The one you claim is the general concensus?

[Quintus 5,399]

What another boring run of the mill discussion this turned out to be. Been there, done that.

Wake me up when Star Wars comes out.

[King Mark 3,631]

Classical Elitists think JW's music is garbage and not artistic. Should we agree with them?

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

At least one member here is going to agree with them, even if he/she's just playing devils advocate or trolling. Such is the nature of JWFan.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

What another boring run of the mill discussion this turned out to be. Been there, done that.

Wake me up when Star Wars comes out.

Hey man, at least I tried!

[Hlao-roo 389]

Hey man, at least I tried!

Tombstone epitaph?

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Video games can never be fart.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Hlao-roo 389]

But fart can be art, if used properly.

Improper farts can't be art?

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Hlao-roo 389]

Well, it depends. Are they interactive farts?

Also: are they by John Williams or someone else?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Indeed!

Any JW fart should automatically be given an Oscar nomination.

[Quintus 5,399]

Lol, what a coincidence that this should turn up today: http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-01-16-who-framed-roger-ebert

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Well that solves that issue. Art doesnt really exist!

Next!

[Quintus 5,399]

It's a sort of alternate universe Koray Savas!

But whatever one takes away from that piece, it does demonstrate that you and ignorant dead Ebert both came to the subject with big fucking chips on your shoulders. A beef with video games in general. A personal need to attack them, probably - as always with these things - purely due to a genuine feeling of being threatened personally by a medium which you do not understand. It's classic passive aggressor stuff, your OP. Which is why you, in the living world, are so easily dismissed on the matter.

I'm sure you'll understand.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

All your base are belong to us. That's art.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

I don't think I've ever seen so many people against one poster since I stabbed John Williams in the back over Star Wars VII.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

If i were to have started a thread claiming TESB isnt a very good score I would encountered less resistance and hate.

Just goes to show that gamers are extremely defensive about their hobby.

Lee's posts read very much as those of a life-long Star Wars geek or Trekkie nerd responding to an assault on his most favorite characters!

I have not personally attacked anyone in this thread, yet have been insulted and belittled. And as ever the Moderators chose not to act. Very much as they ignore attacks on Joeinar because of a personal dislike for him or his posts.

Jason and Incanus are nice people, but can't hold a candle to Neil or Marc when it comes to their job!