Howard Shore's The Battle of the Five Armies (Hobbit Part 3)

[KK 3,307]

Ooh, that motif from The Darkest Hour is back. I'm guessing that has something to do with the trolls or something?

And the Wargs theme!!!

Courage and Wisdom is lovely. That new motif must be a Thranduil theme.

And the Fellowship theme! Hmm, interesting...

Loving these new somber renditions of Tauriel's themes...

[Jay 37,369]

Shore really went all out with all Tauriel music, he must have really taken a liking to her

As for a Thranduil theme, I always felt like the "Thorin's Pride" stuff that's been mentioned has been his theme

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Incanus 5,715]

Shore really went all out with all Tauriel music, he must have really taken a liking to her

As for a Thranduil theme, I always felt like the "Thorin's Pride" stuff that's been mentioned has been his theme

Well the motif heard so prominently in AUJ prologue is perhaps something else then and the DoS appearance is entirely different idea. Or the Courage and Wisdom could also deal with Thorin's fate.

[KK 3,307]

Shore really went all out with all Tauriel music, he must have really taken a liking to her

As for a Thranduil theme, I always felt like the "Thorin's Pride" stuff that's been mentioned has been his theme

And I don't blame him!

As for the Thranduil thing, yeah you may be right. We may have to reassign that motif's meaning. Or it may be a case of 2 really similar motifs?

I mean it's slightly different to what we heard in AUJ right (the version that is here and in DoS)?

I think Kuhni will finally be pleased to hear these minor key renditions of Tauriel and Kili (since he kept complaining about that in DoS...).

[Incanus 5,715]

Shore really went all out with all Tauriel music, he must have really taken a liking to her

As for a Thranduil theme, I always felt like the "Thorin's Pride" stuff that's been mentioned has been his theme

And I don't blame him!

As for the Thranduil thing, yeah you may be right. We may have to reassign that motif's meaning. Or it may be a case of 2 really similar motifs?

I mean it's slightly different to what we heard in AUJ right (the version that is here and in DoS)?

Yeah it is a bit different. Sadly the more expansive version closer to Weakness and Redemption from AUJ never makes appearance anywhere in DoS.

[KK 3,307]

Shore really went all out with all Tauriel music, he must have really taken a liking to her

As for a Thranduil theme, I always felt like the "Thorin's Pride" stuff that's been mentioned has been his theme

Well the motif heard so prominently in AUJ prologue is perhaps something else then and the DoS appearance is entirely different idea. Or the Courage and Wisdom could also deal with Thorin's fate.

Indeed.

I love the earthy choral rendition of the Woodland Realm theme in this cue, reminds me of "Diminishment of the Elves".

Shore really went all out with all Tauriel music, he must have really taken a liking to her

As for a Thranduil theme, I always felt like the "Thorin's Pride" stuff that's been mentioned has been his theme

And I don't blame him!

As for the Thranduil thing, yeah you may be right. We may have to reassign that motif's meaning. Or it may be a case of 2 really similar motifs?

I mean it's slightly different to what we heard in AUJ right (the version that is here and in DoS)?

Yeah it is a bit different. Sadly the more expansive version closer to Weakness and Redemption from AUJ never makes appearance anywhere in DoS.

Yeah. Perhaps another abandoned motif?

Oh and I completely forgot to mention, is there choral chanting behind that kickass statement of House of Durin? Glad to hear this theme is in good shape, and hasn't gotten the boot.

[Jay 37,369]

There seems to be a lot more choir in this score than there was in DOS

[Incanus 5,715]

Shore really went all out with all Tauriel music, he must have really taken a liking to her

As for a Thranduil theme, I always felt like the "Thorin's Pride" stuff that's been mentioned has been his theme

Well the motif heard so prominently in AUJ prologue is perhaps something else then and the DoS appearance is entirely different idea. Or the Courage and Wisdom could also deal with Thorin's fate.

Indeed.

I love the earthy choral rendition of the Woodland Realm theme in this cue, reminds me of "Diminishment of the Elves".

Shore really went all out with all Tauriel music, he must have really taken a liking to her

As for a Thranduil theme, I always felt like the "Thorin's Pride" stuff that's been mentioned has been his theme

And I don't blame him!

As for the Thranduil thing, yeah you may be right. We may have to reassign that motif's meaning. Or it may be a case of 2 really similar motifs?

I mean it's slightly different to what we heard in AUJ right (the version that is here and in DoS)?

Yeah it is a bit different. Sadly the more expansive version closer to Weakness and Redemption from AUJ never makes appearance anywhere in DoS.

Yeah. Perhaps another abandoned motif?

Oh and I completely forgot to mention, is there choral chanting behind that kickass statement of House of Durin? Glad to hear this theme is in good shape, and wasn't going to get the boot.

I am glad of each and every choral version of the Woodland Realm theme. I really liked the version heard in AUJ prologue and was a bit miffed nothing of that style never surfaced in DoS. Shore did use choir but it was a less prominent role in the eponymous track on DoS soundtrack even though it was amped in the film itself.

There seems to be a lot more choir in this score than there was in DOS

Epic score is being epic.

And I am glad for it. I wish they had brought back the dwarven chant from Out of the Frying Pan.

[KK 3,307]

One thing the rendition of the Wargs theme shows is how quality difference in performance between the NZSO and the LPO. It's great, but doesn't seem to have the crazy pulse and intensity the LPO brought to it.

[Jay 37,369]

I wish they had brought back the dwarven chant from Out of the Frying Pan.

How do you know he didn't? We haven't heard the whole score yet!

[KK 3,307]

If it's from AUJ, there's always a good chance we won't be hearing it again.

[Incanus 5,715]

I wish they had brought back the dwarven chant from Out of the Frying Pan.

How do you know he didn't? We haven't heard the whole score yet!

Here's to hoping it comes back because that was awesome stuff! Fit for a Mountain King!

[Jay 37,369]

If it's from AUJ, there's always a good chance we won't be hearing it again.

It really does seem like PJ made HS abandon all the ideas he set in motion in AUJ apart from Thorin, Erebor, Arkenstone and Smaug themes, which don't seem to have suffered one bit. PJ must have thought they were perfect from the start.

The only other AUJ ideas that show up in DOS just make small cameos: Bilbo's Adventure Theme (once), Gandalf the Grey (one standard statement, 2 subtle ones - no b section at all), Bilbo's Fussy theme (twice thankfully, though in one scene it's more used for dwarves than Bilbo), Warg Riders (once), Mirkwood Spiders (once), etc.

Completely abandoned are Bilbo's main theme, Bilbo's Odd Behavior Theme, Bilbo's Burglar theme, Radagast's themes, Dwarf Lords, Misty Mountains, Company Journey Theme, ....

bah!

[KK 3,307]

With LotR, I think Shore spent a huge amount of time in the beginning crafting these different leimotivic cells and working on how they'll develop, and as each film ended up on his desk to be scored, he was able to apply them with little disruption. It was a very smooth process where he could easily play out his vision as he conceived it.

He clearly tried to do the same here, with planting all the same kind of motivic and thematic seeds in AUJ, many of which probably had extensive plans laid out for them in the other 2 films I'm sure. But something happened between AUJ and DoS. And I don't think it's necessarily just PJ cutting out half the themes he wrote, but the whole change in the procedure of recording and orchestrating involved a whole change of mindset. Though the idea of him just writing in New York seems minor to us, something as minor as that could have an impact on something as dense as this. It's kind of like "losing your train of thought", and so a lot the plans he had for those minor motives were consequently abandoned, and he wrote a whole new canvas, upon which he would expand in BOFA.

I feel like if things had been more consistent (whether it had been a trilogy all along, or Shore always intended to write at NYC and not conduct, etc), much of AUJ's material would have been retained.

And unfortunately, a lot of that has to do with PJ's haphazard filmmaking process.

[Jay 37,369]

Yes I agree with everything you say.

SO MUCH changed midway through post-production of AUJ that it had a cascading affect on the rest of the score in numerous ways

For me, the dissapearance of all the great AUJ themes is a far bigger offending than the changing of orchestra, conductor, and writing location.

[Incanus 5,715]

Yes I agree with everything you say.

SO MUCH changed midway through post-production of AUJ that it had a cascading affect on the rest of the score in numerous ways

For me, the dissapearance of all the great AUJ themes is a far bigger offending than the changing of orchestra, conductor, and writing location.

Yeah agreed on all accounts. What I don't quite understand is how things were changed so late in the game. PJ had approved (I would assume) all the themes but did their effect when married to the images at the sessions clash so radically with PJs vision in the end that he had Shore re-score many sequences or was there some other reason for the rapid rescoring of quarter of a film. I understand they went finally from Bilbo-centric to hobbit-centric in most scenes involving Bilbo so this must have been something PJ was not entirely sure of until he heard Bilbo's music in context and decided against it.

[Jay 37,369]

I think a big problem was the splitting of the films from 2 into 3, and suddenly you had this middle film that had very little Bilbo in it, but a lot of other characters (Tauriel, Bolg, Thranduil, Bard, Girion) who all needed new themes, and their themes dominate the soundtrack (along with Smaug and House of Durin).

By the time they got to the third film, I guess it was hard to convince PJ he should continue his Bilbo theme where he left off in AUJ when there had been so little room to include them in DOS... I dunno

[KK 3,307]

It also didn't help that a lot the criticism geared towards AUJ was how much it relied on LotR nostalgia. So PJ probably took that to heart and tried to veer away from that as much as possible for DoS. So he wanted as little of the AUJ material returning because he can't discern much of a difference between the new and the old.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Jay 37,369]

I just wish he had written and recorded TWO versions of major Bilbo moments - one with his themes, and one with whatever PJ wanted. Then we'd all be happy (including Shore!)

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[KK 3,307]

I think he's done with this franchise for good now. I wouldn't expect any Hobbit symphony or any Hobbit live-to-projections.

[Jay 37,369]

Don't worry, I'm sure he'll replace all the Shire theme statements with Bilbo's theme(s) in The Hobbit Symphony.

Do you really think we're still going to get that?

I think he's done with this franchise for good now. I wouldn't expect any Hobbit symphony, nor any Hobbit live-to-projections. The latter might be possible if there's enough pressure on him to do it, but I think he'd be more content to just leave everyone with all the LotR performances.

I agree. Publicly he's still saying nice things about his work on The Hobbit scores, but I can't imagine he's truly happy with the way things turned out from mid-way through the AUJ post-production onward.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Incanus 5,715]

Complete Recordings is the only thing I am still hoping from this trilogy.

[Jay 37,369]

Yea, I think those could still happen for sure.

Especially if he wrote real cues for the (seemingly) large amount of BOFA EE scenes and they were recorded.

But a symphony? I highly doubt it.

It would be cool if he did though. I'm sure you could shape the trilogy's scores into a 2 hour symphony that skips over the stuff that was only written because PJ lost his mind, and focus on the journey of Bilbo first and foremost. Almost like a book score. Then again, I doubt Shore would want to release a symphony without Tauriel material in it....

[Faleel 5,355]

ACTION RIVENDELL!!!!!!

http://www.ign.com/videos/2014/12/02/the-hobbit-the-battle-of-the-five-armies-im-not-alone-clip

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Incanus 5,715]

A really nice use of the Rivendell arpeggios!

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[gkgyver 1,645]

It also didn't help that a lot the criticism geared towards AUJ was how much it relied on LotR nostalgia. So PJ probably took that to heart and tried to veer away from that as much as possible for DoS. So he wanted as little of the AUJ material returning because he can't discern much of a difference between the new and the old.

But what material (that ended up in AUJ anyway) was too nostalgic that would have appeared in DoS? PJ eradicated Dreaming of Bag End and replaced it with the Shire theme, which would be too nostalgic, but he kept that in the subsequent films.

Rivendell's and Gollum's themes wouldn't have made reprisals anyway, and the ring theme is merely hinted at.

On the contrary, I think PJ had it in for the new themes, and kept most of the old. Musically, he likes the bold and the obvious.

[Faleel 5,355]

So that's make the use of the Lothlorien theme in Warg-Scouts all the more bewildering.

Nah, the Rivendell statement here wouldn't fit with the Warg-scouts cue. (watch, there will be a version in the Rarities archive that uses the Rivendell theme )

[Incanus 5,715]

So that's make the use of the Lothlorien theme in Warg-Scouts all the more bewildering.

Nah, the Rivendell statement here wouldn't fit with the Warg-scouts cue. (watch, there will be a version in the Rarities archive that uses the Rivendell theme )

I still don't quite get that use of the theme. Is it a red herring? Why would PJ want us to believe that it was Lothlorien elves assisting the dwarves? And we can safely assume that these are the same elves who later return to Rivendell with Elrond from the hunt.

[Jay 37,369]

Did Doug ever comment on why that was used there?

[Incanus 5,715]

No as far as I know there have not been any comments on this by Doug.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Incanus 5,715]

Dougie, you got some esplainin' to do!

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Incanus 5,715]

Doug, our insideman, doomed to silence.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Faleel 5,355]

Because Muffins?

[Incanus 5,715]

I believe he is wording McGuffin!

[Jay 37,369]

Hopefully the Rivendell statement made it to the OST. I still don't get why HS didn't think the Gandalf Theme statement for his arrival at Dol Guldur wasn't OST worthy.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[RedBard 71]

Dougie, you got some esplainin' to do!

Aww, Inky. The Rivendell statement just wanted to be in the next film and sing the babalu.

Waaaaaaaahhhhh!

[Jay 37,369]

I still don't get why HS didn't think the Gandalf Theme statement for his arrival at Dol Guldur wasn't OST worthy.

Or the Company's theme statement in Brass Buttons!

The most frustrating microedit on any OST in recent years!

There's missing AUJ music I'd much rather have before that bit....

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[tannhauser 101]

Surely the curse of the NDA's will be lifted after the third film (or possibly EE) is released? Doug has always hinted that there will be loads to talk about.

[Faleel 5,355]

I still don't get why HS didn't think the Gandalf Theme statement for his arrival at Dol Guldur wasn't OST worthy.

Or the Company's theme statement in Brass Buttons!

The most frustrating microedit on any OST in recent years!

There's missing AUJ music I'd much rather have before that bit....

This bit is more important, because it would fix the lack of a payoff in the track.