Howard Shore's The Battle of the Five Armies (Hobbit Part 3)

[Jay 37,369]

For DOS, the only stuff he really shouldn't have cut out is the microedited bits of The Forest River (especially Bolg's Theme!), Gandalf Theme statement in Spell of Concealment, and the Smaug/Thorin down the well sequence. Maybe the beginning of the Weapons Raid cue too (and not stick the second half of that after the Thorin welcoming scene!)

This bit is more important, because it would fix the lack of a payoff in the track.

Oh, I totally agree. I think it was a bad decision to cut it out too.

[Faleel 5,353]

And the cut bits of My Armor Is Iron, the album version edits are too obvious IMHO.

[RedBard 71]

I still don't get why HS didn't think the Gandalf Theme statement for his arrival at Dol Guldur wasn't OST worthy.

Or the Company's theme statement in Brass Buttons!

The most frustrating microedit on any OST in recent years!

There's missing AUJ music I'd much rather have before that bit....

This bit is more important, because it would fix the lack of a payoff in the track.

Seriously, how hard is it nowadays for audio engineers to record every last bit of music in the recording sessions, save them to a file, and catalog them? Why all this micro edit crap?

[Faleel 5,353]

Why all this micro edit crap?

#1 CD's have limits.

#2 Composers want to make a listening experience, a concert on CD if you will.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[KK 3,307]

ACTION RIVENDELL!!!!!!

That's not possible. According to KK, this theme can't possibly be used in an action setting.

I never said that!!

And I can't watch the clip yet, buy I heard an "actioney" variant of Rivendell over the premiere yesterday.

[Jay 37,369]

Seriously, how hard is it nowadays for audio engineers to record every last bit of music in the recording sessions, save them to a file, and catalog them? Why all this micro edit crap?

What in the world are you talking about? Of course the untouched original recordings exist on a hard drive somewhere, probably many hard drives!

Shore CHOSE to edit out pieces of the cues for his OST presentation, as just about every composer does and has been doing since movie soundtracks existed...

[Faleel 5,353]

Yep, that's what I meant by "most frustrating". The cue keeps on building, building... and then you know the Company's is supposed to burst into the cue, but instead the track cuts short and the music falls flat on its face!

I think the Company statement is a insert, to replace an aleatoric ending or something.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Jay 37,369]

Yep, that's what I meant by "most frustrating". The cue keeps on building, building... and then you know the Company's is supposed to burst into the cue, but instead the track cuts short and the music falls flat on its face!

I think the Company statement is a insert, to replace an aleatoric ending.

Nope!

[Faleel 5,353]

Yep, that's what I meant by "most frustrating". The cue keeps on building, building... and then you know the Company's is supposed to burst into the cue, but instead the track cuts short and the music falls flat on its face!

I think the Company statement is a insert, to replace an aleatoric ending.

Nope!

No its not an insert? or what it replaced was thematic and not just an aleatoric ending?

[Jay 37,369]

And the cut bits of My Armor Is Iron, the album version edits are too obvious IMHO.

Oh I dunno, I don't mind those as much.

The Forest River would have been better with less microedits (I can understand why they cut some bits, but others really don't hurt the flow of the sequence).

Totally agreed. And some of the stuff he cut out are the best parts!

[RedBard 71]

Why all this micro edit crap?

#1 CD's have limits.

#2 Composers want to make a listening experience, a concert on CD if you will.

#1. Last I checked, complete scores on multiple CDs were not an impossibility.

#2. That's mostly a matter of taste between both the composer and listener.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[KK 3,307]

Did Doug ever comment on why that was used there?

Yeah he did. He said he believed that the rescue elves were from Galadriel's guard that escorted her to Rivendell, so it made perfect sense to use it there.

Ofc, that ain't going to satisfy anyone here!

[Faleel 5,353]

And the cut bits of My Armor Is Iron, the album version edits are too obvious IMHO.

Oh I dunno, I don't mind those as much.

Really? I find the edits at 0:25, 0:40, and (less so) at 1:19 to be a bit jarring.

[Jay 37,369]

Yep, that's what I meant by "most frustrating". The cue keeps on building, building... and then you know the Company's is supposed to burst into the cue, but instead the track cuts short and the music falls flat on its face!

I think the Company statement is a insert, to replace an aleatoric ending.

Nope!

No its not an insert? or what it replaced was thematic and not just an aleatoric ending?

The cue was always written to build to The Company Theme there. Shore microedited it out of the OST.

[Faleel 5,353]

Why all this micro edit crap?

#1 CD's have limits.

#2 Composers want to make a listening experience, a concert on CD if you will.

#1. Last I checked, complete scores on multiple CDs were not an impossibility.

But these aren't complete scores mnac.

[RedBard 71]

Seriously, how hard is it nowadays for audio engineers to record every last bit of music in the recording sessions, save them to a file, and catalog them? Why all this micro edit crap?

What in the world are you talking about? Of course the untouched original recordings exist on a hard drive somewhere, probably many hard drives!Shore CHOSE to edit out pieces of the cues for his OST presentation, as just about every composer does and has been doing since movie soundtracks existed...

I prefer the complete score, if you please.

De gustibus non est disputandum.

[Jay 37,369]

Well we'd all love for WaterTower to release the COMPLETE scores, but the films are still very new, so right now all we have are the presentations Shore has crafted for us to listen to.

Hopefully we will get Complete Recordings sets in a few years like we did for LOTR.

[RedBard 71]

Why all this micro edit crap?

#1 CD's have limits.

#2 Composers want to make a listening experience, a concert on CD if you will.

#1. Last I checked, complete scores on multiple CDs were not an impossibility.

But these aren't complete scores cupcake.

So let's bug Shore for a complete score release in limited print. ^_^

[Faleel 5,353]

Yep, that's what I meant by "most frustrating". The cue keeps on building, building... and then you know the Company's is supposed to burst into the cue, but instead the track cuts short and the music falls flat on its face!

I think the Company statement is a insert, to replace an aleatoric ending.

Nope!

No its not an insert? or what it replaced was thematic and not just an aleatoric ending?

The cue was always written to build to The Company Theme there. Shore microedited it out of the OST.

Hmm, so that must mean that the sequence was longer when originally scored or something.

[Jay 37,369]

Did Doug ever comment on why that was used there?

Yeah he did. He said he believed that the rescue elves were from Galadriel's guard that escorted her to Rivendell, so it made perfect sense to use it there.

Ofc, that ain't going to satisfy anyone here!

I think he just liked the sound of Lothlorien there instead of Rivendell. Like how Williams uses themes sometimes.

[RedBard 71]

Well we'd all love for WaterTower to release the COMPLETE scores, but the films are still very new, so right now all we have are the presentations Shore has crafted for us to listen to.Hopefully we will get Complete Recordings sets in a few years like we did for LOTR.

Fair enough. I can wait.

No more bad blood now. Moving on.

[KK 3,307]

Did Doug ever comment on why that was used there?

Yeah he did. He said he believed that the rescue elves were from Galadriel's guard that escorted her to Rivendell, so it made perfect sense to use it there.

Ofc, that ain't going to satisfy anyone here!

I think he just liked the sound of Lothlorien there instead of Rivendell. Like how Williams uses themes sometimes.

Yup. Musically easier and more applicable than Rivendell. That's all.

[Jay 37,369]

And the cut bits of My Armor Is Iron, the album version edits are too obvious IMHO.

Oh I dunno, I don't mind those as much.

Really? I find the edits at 0:25, 0:40, and (less so) at 1:19 to be a bit jarring.

Starting the track now for me to see:

0:25 edit: sounds fine to me

0:40 edit: yea, that's kinda bad

1:19 edit: sounds fine to me

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Jay 37,369]

BTW, I posted a full list of microedits in that track here:

The microedits in My Armor Is Iron are at:

0:25

0:39

somewhere during 0:43-0:49 (As BB pointed out, this buildup is longer in the film)

0:49

1:18

2:51 (silence shortened here, not missing music)

3:21

[Faleel 5,353]

And the cut bits of My Armor Is Iron, the album version edits are too obvious IMHO.

Oh I dunno, I don't mind those as much.

Really? I find the edits at 0:25, 0:40, and (less so) at 1:19 to be a bit jarring.

Starting the track now for me to see:

0:25 edit: sounds fine to me

The strings end abruptly, and then it goes into that sustained note, sounds a bit icky to me.

[Jay 37,369]

Well, I was listening on computer speakers

[Faleel 5,353]

It just seems mess with little to-tappin' rythm Shore's got going on in the cue IMO.

Well, I was listening on computer speakers

All that room reverb is covering up the edits!

[Jay 37,369]

Yep, that's what I meant by "most frustrating". The cue keeps on building, building... and then you know the Company's is supposed to burst into the cue, but instead the track cuts short and the music falls flat on its face!

I think the Company statement is a insert, to replace an aleatoric ending.

Nope!

No its not an insert? or what it replaced was thematic and not just an aleatoric ending?

The cue was always written to build to The Company Theme there. Shore microedited it out of the OST.

Hmm, so that must mean that the sequence was longer when originally scored or something.

Weren't most scenes?

[Incanus 5,715]

Did Doug ever comment on why that was used there?

Yeah he did. He said he believed that the rescue elves were from Galadriel's guard that escorted her to Rivendell, so it made perfect sense to use it there.

Ofc, that ain't going to satisfy anyone here!

Yeah it definitely won't. I thought she was again some kind of projection from Lorien much like she was when she conversed with Elrond in LotR.

Did Doug ever comment on why that was used there?

Yeah he did. He said he believed that the rescue elves were from Galadriel's guard that escorted her to Rivendell, so it made perfect sense to use it there.

Ofc, that ain't going to satisfy anyone here!

I think he just liked the sound of Lothlorien there instead of Rivendell. Like how Williams uses themes sometimes.

Could be but for a man who has written very rigorously a specific leitmotific score it feels odd.

[Faleel 5,353]

Yep, that's what I meant by "most frustrating". The cue keeps on building, building... and then you know the Company's is supposed to burst into the cue, but instead the track cuts short and the music falls flat on its face!

I think the Company statement is a insert, to replace an aleatoric ending.

Nope!

No its not an insert? or what it replaced was thematic and not just an aleatoric ending?

The cue was always written to build to The Company Theme there. Shore microedited it out of the OST.

Hmm, so that must mean that the sequence was longer when originally scored or something.

Weren't most scenes?

LOL.

[Jay 37,369]

I thought she was again some kind of projection from Lorien much like she was when she conversed with Elrond in LotR.

Oh shit, I forgot about that stuff. Was it ever definitively said one way or another if she was really there or just "projected" there?

I mean, what was the point of her disappearing after talking to Gandalf anwyay?

Will BOFA answer this question?

[Faleel 5,353]

Find out, in "Never".

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Faleel 5,353]

Could be but for a man who has written very rigorously a specific leitmotific score it feels odd.

Yep. JW started doing that in SW right from the start in the first score with Leia's theme for Ben's death whereas Shore only did that once in LOTR,

Once?

The Nazgul theme appears three times in the film version prologue, and once in Parth Galen.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Jay 37,369]

Shore only did that once in LOTR

Which scene are you referring to?

[KK 3,307]

True. Totally forgot about her disappearing

It really just is a momentary lapse for Shore, where he just liked the sound of one theme over the other.

Yup. Musically easier and more applicable than Rivendell. That's all.

OK, now you're trying to piss me off!

Is it working?

[Incanus 5,715]

Could be but for a man who has written very rigorously a specific leitmotific score it feels odd.

Yep. JW started doing that in SW right from the start in the first score with Leia's theme for Ben's death whereas Shore only did that once in LOTR,

Once?

The Nazgul theme appears three times in the film version prologue, and once in Parth Galen.

Was there a more applicable theme for 2nd Age Sauron for the prologue to express the sheer violence, when they for some reason wanted to keep the Mordor/Evil of the Ring still veiled? The Power of Mordor was discarded from the prologue before this and even the original one has a variation of the Ringwraiths' theme with different lyrics in there. And Parth Galen rendition conincides with the vision of Barad-dûr. Makes a heck of a lot more sense than injecting it say to a duel of an orc chief and Thorin. I know it is supposed to give us a big hint of Azog's allegiance (hammer it in with no subtlety) but it feels out of place as it has never been linked to others than Sauron and the ringwraiths in LotR.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Faleel 5,353]

And for Parth Galen, this isn't the actual theme, this is just the rising chords of doom (or whatever it is called).

Nope, its the actual theme, the sheet music for that bit is in Doug's book at page 101!

You can hear it at 3:25 of this video.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxQSwI5aPja9LUZmVmNqa1prTWM/view?usp=sharing

[Incanus 5,715]

And for Parth Galen, this isn't the actual theme, this is just the rising chords of doom (or whatever it is called).

Nope, its the actual theme, the sheet music for that bit is in Doug's book at page 101!

Indeed it was and one of the versions had even the choir accompaniment.

[Jay 37,369]

The Reclamation Of Nature theme for the arrival of the Rohirrim during the battle of the Pelennor Fields, and even that doesn't bother me, as it can be seen as a "Eucatastrophe" theme.

Plus it sounds so awesome!

[Incanus 5,715]

The Reclamation Of Nature theme for the arrival of the Rohirrim during the battle of the Pelennor Fields, and even that doesn't bother me, as it can be seen as a "Eucatastrophe" theme.

Plus it sounds so awesome!

I like totally bought that transference of the theme in all its guises (it accompanies also the departure of the army from Edoras) from the Nature to the Rohirrim and then back to the Eagles. Awesome, like totally!

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

Oh not that old argument... it totally fits! It's a general "force of good" theme, that can apply to Nature or anyone that's being really good!

[Jay 37,369]

Yea. I doubt it was ever Shore's intention, but it works.

[Incanus 5,715]

Yea. I doubt it was ever Shore's intention, but it works.

I like totally think it is like his own intention. He is just that deep man. Where you see horses he sees like subtext or deeper message or something.