The Battle of the Five Armies SPOILERS ALLOWED Discussion Thread

[KK 3,307]

Just finished.

Debating whether I should bother writing something...sort of drained to bother.

[Incanus 5,715]

It would be perhaps better if you collected yourself a bit. It was a draining experience to be sure, I know, and not in a good way emotionally draining. Plus you had all three films to see. But I am glad I simply didn't care too much at this point so I was shielded from the draining powers of this film.

[KK 3,307]

I'll write a more summative write-up in 10 min or so, if I can.

The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies

At this point of the trilogy, I honestly did not have much invested. I didn't care for this much, and thus had little expectations going in. Just went in there, expecting some semi-decent entertainment. Did I get it? Sure, but not without its consequences.

So we open straight into Smaug's death. When I heard that this would happen, I expected that PJ had something really dramatic in store for us, and that's why he deviated from the usual format. But that wasn't the case, his death was inconsequential. Felt like an afterthought to DoS, and really should have been put there at the end. Odd way to start the film off, and doesn't allow this episode in the saga to stand on its own feet.

The Dol Goldur scene turned out to be what I expected. Underwhelming payoff, and real disservice to the level of imagination Tolkien's depiction inspires. To think that Middle-Earth's greatest calamity just gets shoo-ed away like that. Oh well, it did have some low entertainment quality to it, mainly because we finally get to see Galadriel kick some ass, as weird as it was.

What follows are some of my favourite bits though. The aftermath of Laketown's demise is well-handled. PJ depicts the chaos of the people in a relateable way, and you could genuinely feel the plight of the people. Also, there are 2 shots I love. 1 shot is of Erebor in daylight, and the other is of the Lonely Mountain in daylight from Bard's POV. Both locations have NEVER looked better. Seriously, it's the first time they looked kind of "real". But the film never captures that look again...it just makes me wonder why they couldn't look like that for the entire trilogy.

Thorin, ahh Thorin! Richard Armitage, I have been a big critic of your stoic, over-done, monochromatic performances in the past two films, but you have finally proven your worth here! There is FINALLY some true depth to his character, and I honestly think Armitage is the star of this movie. Contrary to what GK was saying, the dragon-sickness angle was quite consistent, and very well portrayed. But what spoke to me more than that was the brief moments where you see Thorin's friendship to Bilbo. In DoS, they're supposed to be friends, but hardly sound like them, and Thorin's always been kind of a jerk. Always felt contrived. But here, I believe it. I love the scene where Thorin is amused and touched when Bilbo speaks of tending to his gardens in the Shire, and when Thorin confesses Bilbo is the only one he trusts and the final death scene. Well played Armitage, well played.

Gandalf miraculously returns by great distances, which at this point, I'm not bothered to care about really. But all is well as we approach the beginning of the battle. I enjoyed Dain's entrance, even though it's pretty clear that he's been completely reconstructed into a CGI model (I wonder why?). And then Azog comes in and ruins the fun. And what follows then is an endless barrage of sieges, attacks and parading armies. The thing is, they lose their entertainment value when it happens so fast. All these fronts are being attacked by all sorts of different creatures, but with no sense of geniune momentum to keep us at the edge of our streets. Just look at the gigantic siege of Gondor. So much goes on there, but it takes its time, and builds on its various layers. Here, everything just happens. Laketown is just rammed instantly and overrun within minutes, and people are rushing at all fronts to defend...I don't know! I don't even know what's being defended! And the fighting keeps going and going, and PJ tries to slow down things with an occaisonal montage or two, but they feel very artificial and phoney. So I didn't really connect with any of it. And then somehow Thorin and company get to Ravenhill in a matter of minutes, and it's all a blur. Stuff just happens, but I'm never emotionally engaged.

I was also strangely bothered by how Gandalf and Bilbo were able to see exactly what was happening with Thorin throughout the whole battle. Really limited the scope of it.

The Kili death scene. Turner does his part well enough, but Lily was cringeworthy. While Kili sheds tears in his dying moments while looking at his love's face, Tauriel just gets long slow-motion close-ups to her reactions...except there are no reactions! You'd expect to cry or something, but it felt like Lily just wasn't pulling her weight. Didn't buy any of it. Didn't help with the truly awful writing either.

Legolas? Yeah that stunt was pretty bad, but honestly, I was just more exhausted by how much screentime he got. There's just soo much fighting. I mean why does it take so long to kill Bolg when these guys slice off heads instantaneously while the fly around in the air. People were just laughing at points, it got too ridiculous. Stopped being fun a while ago. OH and the Aragorn reference...jeez, that was some pretty bad shit. I was hoping for something a bit more subtle than that! Man...

Azog vs. Thorin? Had some nicely staged moments, but I didn't like the false ending. Film doesn't sell it too well. Death scene was good though.

After the battle is over, the smoking scene with Gandalf and Bilbo was a welcome relief. That whole bit really reflected how it must have been for the audience. "Thank God it's over!".

All the epilogue stuff is pretty good, and I liked the subtle references to the Ring and what's to come. And I really liked how he ended it, seguing right into Fellowship. All good stuff, though I wish Gandalf had more of a farewell moment too, because this really is the last time we'll be seeing that character depicted on screen, in our lifetimes anyway.

Except for the ending, the score was actually pretty crap in the picture, mainly because of how it was butchered, dialled down, mixed with sound effects etc etc. The musical highlights on album just did not get its moment to shine in film. Pity. I imagine Shore must be sick and tired of this franchise. There were some unreleased bits here and there though.

All in all, it suffers from many of the same problems as DoS, but with more entertainment value. What's most strange about it is that it doesn't feel like a film. It literally is JUST a battle. And I guess that goes to show how much this 3 film structure just didn't work. You could have shaved half the fat off of AUJ and put in half of DoS in the first film, while putting in Smaug and the battle in the second film. Really would have solved most of the pacing issues with this trilogy, but I guess that's just wishful thinking.

So yeah, better than DoS, but still below AUJ. I don't think I'll watch this again, depends on if social gatherings call for it. I was going to start a LOTR marathon from tomorrow actually, but after this film, I'm honestly maxed out on Middle-Earth. This film, or rather the marathon, just drained me to the extent that I kind of feel like Lee now...which makes me sad.

[Incanus 5,715]

Nice summary with a lot of things I also find at fault with the last film and those smaller good bits.

Hey I just read in the paper this movie set a new record for box office as 150 000 people have seen in the first 5 days here. For a country the size of Finland that is enormous. And it seems it has done well on the opening week elsewhere as well.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Mainly immigrants i'm sure!

[Incanus 5,715]

Hey I just read in the paper this movie set a new record for box office as 150 000 people have seen in the first 5 days here. For a country the size of Finland that is enormous. And it seems it has done well on the opening week elsewhere as well.

Wait. There are more than 150 000 people in Finland? Wow.

Ah a good one BBoal. Had me laughing for a good second. Of course there are more of us. But out of 5½ million 150 000 is a considerable amount.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Awwww

[Incanus 5,715]

How can one stay mad at a person holding a cuddly kitten as a weapon of mass-awww against you? You can't!

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Alvar does not fight fair!

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Glóin the Dark 1,222]

- What's his name?

- He is known as "Strider", but his real name...that you must discover for yourself. Though, like I just said, his father is called Arathorn. *wink*

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Yeah, very blatant

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Incanus 5,715]

Aragorn was called Estel at the time of The Hobbit, anyway! Epic fail is epic!

Thranduil knew him as Strider. They go way back.

[Glóin the Dark 1,222]

Maybe that's why they awkwardly avoided naming him.

- How will I know what he looks like?

- Here, take this. It's a early photo of him playing the role of an Amish farmer.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

So 60 years later, at the council of Elrond, when Legolas says "He is Aragorn, son of Arathorn..." He's only just realized it himself?

[Jay 37,372]

That's what I was going to say.

Is it even ever shown or hinted at in the LOTR films that Leglas knew Aragorn before they joined the Fellowship together?

If not, there's no reason for this foreshadowing bit PJ stuck into The Hobbit.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Legolas looks far too young there!

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Glóin the Dark 1,222]

Yeah, and havo dad was mistranslated by the subtitlers as "Sit down". It actually means "Holy shit!!!"

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Atleast TBOTFA now explains why the film Legolas knew who Aragorn was. How he knew of the Paths of the Dead, the origin of Shadowfax etc.

In those 60 years he traveled all over Middle Earth with Strider!

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Game Of Middle Earth!

[Incanus 5,715]

I think it could be construed that Legolas could have met Aragorn during the hunt for Gollum as he brought Gollum to Thranduil's kingdom as captive.

[Quintus 5,399]

Don't worry, they'll CG him to make him look older in the future edition of FOTR (with Freeman's Bilbo being inserted in the prologue, too).

Maybe Jacko will do a Lucas and paste Freeman over Holm. Erasing his contribution from the saga entirely.

[Incanus 5,715]

Don't worry, they'll CG him to make him look older in the future edition of FOTR (with Freeman's Bilbo being inserted in the prologue, too).

Maybe Jacko will do a Lucas and paste Freeman over Holm. Erasing his contribution from the saga entirely.

Heh a CG aged version of Freeman's digital double!

[KK 3,307]

They'll do that in the prologue, with the "younger" Ian Holm.

So 60 years later, at the council of Elrond, when Legolas says "He is Aragorn, son of Arathorn..." He's only just realized it himself?

No. Aragorn was already familiar with Legolas at that point. So we can assume they've already met and are friends.

[Jay 37,372]

BOFA was ridiculous. PJ was once a really good director but I really don't think he is anymore. This film had horrible pacing, horrible green screen work, bad CGI, and some just plain bad ideas allowed to make their way to the final cut.

The worst was replacing Billy Connelly with CGI. I dunno who said he appears in prosthetics because from what I could tell 100% of his shots where a CGI character. And it was really poor CGI!! Worst than video games from 10 years ago.

It was so blatantly obvious that many scenes where cut and I think he choose poorly in what to save for the EE and what to put in the TC. From the opening shot the pacing was off in the film.

There was a brief period, maybe a 10-15 minute stretch when all of a sudden I felt like I had fallen back into an adaptation of the book. When Bard and Thranduil meet and discuss plans, Bilbo shows up withe arkenstone, they go to barter with Thorin... it was all good stuff, and it felt like the crazy ship that resulted from the 2->3 film split had been righted. But that feeling didn't last and soon it went right back to a poorly shot and lit cgi-infested choppily-paced mess.

The battle itself started off really great, but some of the logistics really made no sense, and I don't get why PJ added an invasion of Dale that wasn't really any different than how the siege of Gondor was staged.

I never liked how in ROTK the battle goes one way for the whole movie, the the Army of the Dead show sup and ends it in a minute. Here PJ repeats that trick again, with the battle being the same thing for a while then the Eagles showing up last minute to end it. I wish it had truly been a battle of FIVE ARMIES, with lots of different types of fighting being shown. Replacing wargs with bats really made no sense at all and wasn't used to any good effect at all.

There is a chance an EE can fix a large amount of this film's problems, but not all of them. I will definitely watch it with an open mind as I did with this one.

Freeman and McKellen where great as was Shore's music when it wasn't dialed in and out at the whim of PJ.

[KK 3,307]

Yeah. There was a time when I considered Jackson one of the finest directors working in the industry. Now I don't think I can even call him a decent one. Because most of the decisions made with BOTFA are not ones that would be made by a good director.

The worst was replacing Billy Connelly with CGI. I dunno who said he appears in prosthetics because from what I could tell 100% of his shots where a CGI character. And it was really poor CGI!! Worst than video games from 10 years ago.

There was ONE close-up when he was talking to Thorin in the battle field, where we saw Connelly in prosthetics.

There was a brief period, maybe a 10-15 minute stretch when all of a sudden I felt like I had fallen back into an adaptation of the book. When Bard and Thranduil meet and discuss plans, Bilbo shows up withe arkenstone, they go to barter with Thorin... it was all good stuff, and it felt like the crazy ship that resulted from the 2->3 film split had been righted. But that feeling didn't last and soon it went right back to a poorly shot and lit cgi-infested choppily-paced mess.

Yup! Favourite part of the film. It was going good right up until the giant worms came out of nowhere. Then it became a blur.

The battle itself started off really great, but some of the logistics really made no sense, and I don't get why PJ added an invasion of Dale that wasn't really any different than how the siege of Gondor was staged.

Yeah, except where the Gondor siege took its time with it, it just happened kind of instantaneously here. Didn't like that.

I never liked how in ROTK the battle goes one way for the whole movie, the the Army of the Dead show sup and ends it in a minute. Here PJ repeats that trick again, with the battle being the same thing for a while then the Eagles showing up last minute to end it. I wish it had truly been a battle of FIVE ARMIES, with lots of different types of fighting being shown. Replacing wargs with bats really made no sense at all and wasn't used to any good effect at all.

At least we are led to believe the Army of the Dead was an unstoppable, immortal force, so they'd get the job done. But it's tougher to believe that an army of eagles just manage to wipe the fields clean.

And are the wargs entirely removed? I mean we hear their theme in the score? And I think they appear in that scene on in the ice that we saw in the teaser.

[Jay 37,372]

Yeah. There was a time when I considered Jackson one of the finest directors working in the industry. Now I don't think I can even call him a decent one. Because most of the decisions made with BOTFA are not ones that would be made by a good director.

Nope, that was very obvious bad CGI, not a man in prosthetics.

And are the wargs entirely removed? I mean we hear their theme in the score? And I think they appear in that scene on in the ice that we saw in the teaser.

There were wargs in the film of course, but what I meant was that in the book, one of the titular five armies is an army of wargs.

In the book, the Five Armies are: Men of Lake-town, Elves of the Woodland Realm, and Dwarves of the Iron Hills vs Goblins from the Misty Mountains and Wargs (who talk). Unless the Eagles count as one of the armies and the goblins and wargs are combined as one, I dunno.

In the film, the Five Armies are more like 8: the Men, Elves and Dwarves vs Gol Goldur Orcs, Gundabad Orcs, some goblins, some worms, some trolls, some bats, the eagles.... I don't know what counts actually.

[KK 3,307]

Oh you were talking about that.

Yeah, well it's Peter Jackson. I knew that he couldn't resist the temptation to go overboard with the armies.

The weird thing is, because things go so fast, you can't even appreciate all the crazy designs of random creatures they put in the battle. You just see the characters facing all sorts of CG blobs.

[Jay 37,372]

Yup, pretty much. Everytime you see something cool and new, it's either killed, or the film cuts away to something else, never to return.

Then he lingers on non-interesting things, or bad green-screen things.

And I saw this in 2D - it must look really bad in 3D or HFR 3D. The bad lighting and green screen work must really stick out there.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

I saw The Battle of the Five Armies yesterday in IMAX 3D HFR. Now, after three movies spread over two years, does the trilogy's finale make it all worth it?

Well...

No.

The Battle of the Five Armies was another reminder of how much of a masterpiece the Lord of the Rings trilogy is. The Hobbit is grand and spectacular, but lacks the heart, the passion and the magic of its predecessor.

This third film is another example of these symptoms. The grand vistas of the battle are spectacular, but when the only characters we've spent more than half a movie with (i.e. Bilbo, Gandalf and the Dwarves) are sidelined during almost all of it, it's hard to care. We only met Bard halfway through film two and why the hell should I care about Dain? He just showed up five minutes ago.

When the dwarves finally do storm out, the epicness is pumped to eleven, even though they're really only thirteen additional warriors against an army of thousands. Like so much in this trilogy, it rings hollow. A lot of hot air.

The Battle of the Five Armies fails to pay off many things that were set up in the first two films. The Elven jewels are in there for two minutes then are never mentioned again. There's no real goodbye to the fallen (why the hell didn't Thorin get a proper funeral scene?!) and what was the point of showing us the windlance in DoS if you're not going to use it here? Lame.

Many of the filmmaker's inventions for the first two films backfire here. Bard's family becomes dead weight, keeping him out of a lot of the action and adding very little to the plot. Their worst offense though, is Alfrid. I liked him and the master in DoS, but before the master's early demise, we're told about five times they're both dicks. Yes, yes, I get it. When Alfrid survived the attack on Lake-Town and came ashore, I felt he might be given the chance to redeem himself, but every scene with him revolved around him being an irredeemable scumbag. There was no reason to laugh at his supposed comic relief and every time he showed up, he violently yanked me out of enjoying the movie. He ended up exiting the film looking like a Monty Python character (seriously, Terry Jones in Life of Brian, anyone?).

Technology also got in the way of enjoying the film. Apart from the movie being too CGI-invested to carry any threat or weight, the HFR was not kind on many scenes. It took a while to get used to it, more than with the previous film (partly because of the wild opening - DoS's two-people-sitting-at-a-table opening scene allowed the viewer to get used to the high frame rate). At times, the movie looked like it was being played on a flatscreen set to demo mode at your local rubbish electronics dealer. The IMAX format is also pretty ruthless. When Dwalin confronts Thorin, there were actually some prosthetics edges visible.

This movie wasn't without its good moments, but my favorite bits were actually when Jackson kept it relatively small. And they nearly all involved Bilbo. The conversation between Bilbo and Balin about the Arkenstone (btw, did that really end up in Bard's jacket pocket only to never be heard of again?), Bilbo using the Arkenstone as a bargaining chip and Bilbo throwing rocks at onstorming Orcs (much like Merry and Pippin would do in The Lord of the Rings). Most of the other parts of the movies were either layed on way too thick or kept telling us the same thing over and over again (Alfrid is a dick, Thorin is going crazy, Bard cares for his family, oh, and Alfrid is a dick).

The Hobbit is a brave attempt to adapt a book that is possibly harder to film than The Lord of the Rings. For being such a long novel, at least LotR has a clear narrative and interesting characters. The Hobbit's source material is overpopulated with identical characters all wanting the same thing, making them terribly redundant. What you might get away with on the page never really worked in the film and the large Dwarf troup ultimately became part of the films' undoing. You never really connect with any of these people. This problem was never solved in the adaptation, but instead was covered up with a lot of other things (The White Council, Sauron's involvement, Tauriel and Legolas, etc.) that only caused more problems of their own.

While I commend the craftmanship and effort put into these films and while a lot of what happens here is a technological marvel, it's hard to connect with on an emotional level. The Hobbit trilogy is the perfect example of a movie made with too much money and too much certainty of success. I strongly believe the best movies are made under a constant fear of the film being a terrible disaster. This was never an issue with The Hobbit. It was going to be a succes no matter what. I'm sure the people involved did their very best to make these films the best they could, but you never get a sense that something was driving them to make it great, like you get with Lord of the Rings. Those movies did indeed end up great. Unfortunately, with The Hobbit we'll have to settle for just good enough.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Great review!

I hope to see it in IMAX soon.

[Incanus 5,715]

Quite spot on review Marc!

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

The worst thing is that pretty much all of the stuff they invented does not get a proper pay off.

[Jay 37,372]

Spot on in everything you say, Mr B, spot on!

Especially this:

The Hobbit trilogy is the perfect example of a movie made with too much money and too much certainty of success. I strongly believe the best movies are made under a constant fear of the film being a terrible disaster. This was never an issue with The Hobbit. It was going to be a succes no matter what. I'm sure the people involved did their very best to make these films the best they could, but you never get a sense that something was driving them to make it great, like you get with Lord of the Rings. Those movies did indeed end up great. Unfortunately, with The Hobbit we'll have to settle for just good enough.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Jason, you still gonns buy the blu-ray and CR for this film?

[Jay 37,372]

Yes.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

That's hilarious!

It's really something I dont get about modern fandom. You pretty much dislike something, and then go out and pay even more money on it.

I dislike the Prequels, so I would never even consider of buying them on home video.

Incidentally I do not own The Hobbit on home video in any format yet.

[Jay 37,372]

What do you mean? I love the score!

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

The films, Jason...the films...

I only own the AUJ EE, but I've only seen it once. I wonder if I should sell it.

Would you be willing to buy my copy, Stiff?

Depends on the price. If you are serious drop me a PM.

[Jay 37,372]

The films, Jason...the films...

You asked me about the CRs, which I will buy because I love the scores, AND the blu rays, which are like five bucks and you can rip more score out of them. I don't see the big deal.