Music theory question

[Tydirium 1,167]

I’m trying to brush up on my music theory (it’s been a while since I studied this stuff), and I’m trying to learn by analyzing JW’s scores. I figured I’d start with something simple, so I’m writing out the chord progression of one of my favorite musical moments, the 9/8 childhood theme from “Remembering Childhood” from Hook:

 

 

In bar three at 9:09, after a couple bars of A major, we’ve got A-B-C#-E. Basically, the same A major chord, but now the 2nd is thrown in there too. What chord is this/how is this functioning here? Does the B mean it is a ninth chord of A? My instinct when I saw the B right under the C# was to assume it could be some sort of C# seventh chord, but that obviously doesn’t appear to be the case.

[Falstaft 2,132]

1 hour ago, Tydirium said:

In bar three at 9:09, after a couple bars of A major, we’ve got A-B-C#-E. Basically, the same A major chord, but now the 2nd is thrown in there too. What chord is this/how is this functioning here? Does the B mean it is a ninth chord of A? My instinct when I saw the B right under the C# was to assume it could be some sort of C# seventh chord, but that obviously doesn’t appear to be the case.

 

There's no hard and fast rules to describing this kind of thing, but I'd characterize the B as an added 2nd. Not as a 9th (there's no 7th implied), nor a sus-2 (there's no feeling that the B needs to resolve by step). So A major (add2).

 

I think you'll find these sorts of major-add2 chords are quite common in JW!

[QuartalHarmony 543]

I agree - it’s functioning as a 2nd more than a 9th. Chord descriptors aren’t consistent across all sources, but I’ve seen either A(add2) (with or without brackets)!or even just A2 used.

[filmmusic 1,843]

Yes, they are added-note chords about which you can read in Persichetti's Harmony (page 111 and on):

https://hugoribeiro.com.br/area-restrita/Persichetti-Twentieth_Century_Harmony.pdf

 

In my dissertation on Williams's style, I have a short chapter on the matter. It's in Greek, but you can see other examples of such chords (page 106-page 112 [1st example]):

https://freader.ekt.gr/eadd/index.php?doc=50181&lang=el#p=111

in the first 4 examples I claim that those 7ths are added-notes and don't function as real 7ths.

Then we have added 2nds: Sailing theme-Flying theme

4ths and 6ths: Thomsons' theme-Prologue/Epilogue motif

For End title theme on page 112 see Persichetti, p. 116-118.

 

[Tydirium 1,167]

That makes sense, thanks! In a similar vein, then would you say that the minor-ish chord at 9:24 (my favorite spot!) is a standard minor iv chord with an added 2nd? A-B-D-F. I guess the other alternative could be a ii half-diminished seventh, third inversion? (If I’m calculating it correctly, though I’m not sure how common such a chord is, or whether it would even make sense to use it here?)

 

EDIT: I’m not thinking straight. Minor iv would have D as its root, meaning the B would be the 6th, not the 2nd.

 

9 minutes ago, filmmusic said:

Yes, they are added-note chords about which you can read in Perscichetti's Harmony (page 111 and on):

https://hugoribeiro.com.br/area-restrita/Persichetti-Twentieth_Century_Harmony.pdf

 

In my dissertation on Williams's style, I have a short chapter on the matter. It's in Greek, but you can see other examples of such chords (page 106-page 112 [1st example]):

https://freader.ekt.gr/eadd/index.php?doc=50181&lang=el#p=111

in the first 4 examples I claim that those 7ths are added-notes and on't function as real 7ths.

Then we have added 2nds: Sailing theme-Flying theme

4ths and 6ths: Thomsons' theme-Prologue/Epilogue motif

For End title theme on page 112 see Persichetti, p. 116-118.

 

 

Thank you for the links; looking forward to checking them out!

[Loert 2,515]

4 hours ago, Tydirium said:

I’m trying to brush up on my music theory (it’s been a while since I studied this stuff), and I’m trying to learn by analyzing JW’s scores.

 

Ambitious. I like it.

 

4 hours ago, Tydirium said:

In bar three at 9:09, after a couple bars of A major, we’ve got A-B-C#-E. Basically, the same A major chord, but now the 2nd is thrown in there too. What chord is this/how is this functioning here? Does the B mean it is a ninth chord of A? My instinct when I saw the B right under the C# was to assume it could be some sort of C# seventh chord, but that obviously doesn’t appear to be the case.

 

Just note though that the piano has the B included from the first bar, though I know what you are saying. I would just say this - JW likes to "colour" triads by adding 2nds, or major 7ths. It is important what @Falstaft says above, that these colour tones do not resolve. This is a kind of legacy from jazz, where you add tones to chords for purely coloristic purposes (though the impressionists, like Ravel and Debussy, also did this...and Wagner). Here, JW is adding the 2nd. In the Flying Theme from E.T., you will see that JW adds the major 7th to the horns to produce a similar effect.

 

Why do these added notes work? I think it has something to do with the harmonic series. The first new tones in the harmonic series are the perfect 5th and the major 3rd (this is the basis of the major triad). But now let's take the 5th. What are the first new tones in the harmonic series of the 5th, in terms of the tonic? Well, they are the 2nd, and the 7th. For example: if the tonic is C, the 5th above C is G. The harmonic series of G will yield D and B as the first new tones. These are the 2nd and 7th of the tonic (C) respectively. This is why these two intervals work well as colour tones. So basically, JW is making the music "shine" by emphasising these "colour tones".

 

49 minutes ago, Tydirium said:

would you say that the minor-ish chord at 9:24 (my favorite spot!) is a standard minor iv chord with an added 2nd? A-B-D-F. I guess the other alternative could be a ii half-diminished seventh, third inversion? (If I’m calculating it correctly, though I’m not sure how common such a chord is, or whether it would even make sense to use it here?)

 

When you say intervals like "2nd", you need to base it on the root of the chord. A "standard minor iv chord with an added 2nd" would therefore be A-D-E-F, not A-B-D-F. Here, the "B" is actually a 6th. But anyway, this chord is definitely a "ii half-diminished seventh, third inversion", because JW is most definitely hinting at a ii -> V -> I progression here. Therefore the "B" definitely has a function as the ii, and is not merely an added 6th note.

 

(An example of an unambiguous minor chord with an added 6th would be in the James Bond theme. The third chord to be precise: see this page for the actual chord symbols. Note that there is no hint of a ii -> V -> I progression here.)

 

This "half-diminished"-sounding chord may sound familiar to you from JW's love themes. These pieces all begin with the same two chords:

• Leia's Theme
• Han and Leia
• Marion's Theme

Namely, I -> ii^ø7 OR I -> iv(add6). This is where it gets finicky and why I don't like labelling music by someone like JW with chord symbols, because it gets ambiguous. I think that in all these pieces, a case can be made for either ii^ø7 or iv(add6) as the second chord. I would probably lean towards the iv(add6) on the whole. But in the Hook example, the hint of the ii -> V -> I progression is strong enough to justify calling it a half-diminished chord, IMO.

[Tydirium 1,167]

48 minutes ago, Loert said:

Just note though that the piano has the B included from the first bar, though I know what you are saying. I would just say this - JW likes to "colour" triads by adding 2nds, or major 7ths. It is important what @Falstaft says above, that these colour tones do not resolve. This is a kind of legacy from jazz, where you add tones to chords for purely coloristic purposes (though the impressionists, like Ravel and Debussy, also did this...and Wagner). Here, JW is adding the 2nd. In the Flying Theme from E.T., you will see that JW adds the major 7th to the horns to produce a similar effect.

 

Why do these added notes work? I think it has something to do with the harmonic series. The first new tones in the harmonic series are the perfect 5th and the major 3rd (this is the basis of the major triad). But now let's take the 5th. What are the first new tones in the harmonic series of the 5th, in terms of the tonic? Well, they are the 2nd, and the 7th. For example: if the tonic is C, the 5th above C is G. The harmonic series of G will yield D and B as the first new tones. These are the 2nd and 7th of the tonic (C) respectively. This is why these two intervals work well as colour tones. So basically, JW is making the music "shine" by emphasising these "colour tones".

 

I’ve long loved these kinds of “jazzy” chords in Williams’ music. Would I be correct in thinking that the end of “The Seduction of Suki and the Ballroom Scene” is an example of this? I love the half-step crunchiness in the lower horns starting at 6:24, which I am assuming (I haven’t looked at the notes or put it into my computer by ear yet) could be a major 7th. Either way, this is one of my favorite spots that comes to mind when I think of this sort of thing:

 

 

Also, I performed the Superman March in concert earlier this year and one of my favorite things was noticing just how crunchy the horns are (he really seems to love doing this stuff in the horns in particular) in the section at 1:40:

 

 

Especially that chord at 1:43!

 

48 minutes ago, Loert said:

When you say intervals like "2nd", you need to base it on the root of the chord. A "standard minor iv chord with an added 2nd" would therefore be A-D-E-F, not A-B-D-F. Here, the "B" is actually a 6th. But anyway, this chord is definitely a "ii half-diminished seventh, third inversion", because JW is most definitely hinting at a ii -> V -> I progression here. Therefore the "B" definitely has a function as the ii, and is not merely an added 6th note.

 

(An example of a minor chord with an added 6th would be in the James Bond theme. The third chord to be precise: see this page for the actual chord symbols. Note that there is no hint of a ii -> V -> I progression here.)

 

Yeah, I caught my mistake shortly after I made the post (you may have made your comment before I added my edit). Part of me was still thinking of the A major chord at the time, as far as the B goes as the 2nd. Thanks for your thorough response, and thanks for that link!

[Loert 2,515]

Yep, I noticed he loves doing it in the brass too! I think it sounds great in the mid-register horns especially. I do think it comes from a big-band way of scoring, where if you have 4 horns (as JW usually does), then each horn plays a different note to avoid doubling any one pitch and thus avoiding un-even volume across the pitches. But this gives the nice side-effect of producing a 4-note harmony.

[michael_grig 472]

I love those kind of threads!!!!

 

I am just trying to analyze The Rise of Skywalker and am having a hard time with this section (2:26-2:41):

 

This insert is mainly based around a Bsus4 chord, quite simple:

 

 

But then, the high woodwinds and later trumpets come in with a little phrase:

 

Aside from heavy errors in the sheet music for this section, I found it very difficult to transcribe this section and find an explanation for the harmonic processes, including the chord symbols.

 

As has been said, adding chord symbols to Williams' music is often very difficult, so does it make sense here, and are the chords I have labeled reasonably correct?

 

 

The places I also have problems with:

- bar 66 (now with D as tonic): Does it make sense to label this as Em11 over D or just keep it as D5(add69) but now with an added sus4? 

- last quarter note of m.66: Dmaj7? I mean, we have the F# in three places there, so technically it's not D5 anymore, but they are all on weak beats only for a short time. For the overall context of the whole phrase would this count as Dmajor or D5?

[QuartalHarmony 543]

11 hours ago, Tydirium said:

Especially that chord at 1:43!

This is bar 44 in the HL full score. If you’re interested, the four horns play a (concert) Dm7 on the first beat of the bar before bouncing down to Cmaj7 for the middle minim. One horn per note of the chord, as others have pointed out. Clarinets, Vn & Vla are doubling them. Low strings are bom-bomming along on low Cs.

 

Another thing happening here that I think of as quite JW-y is the way the bass note pedals on a C for ages, despite the changing chords above, for five bars in this case.

Same thing happens in Yoda’s Theme - pedal C in the bass for the first ten bars.

And in Flying (ET) - pedal C from bar 9 (theme entry) for seven bars except one bar where it goes to B and one to D.
Raiders pedals on a C a lot too in the main theme, but I haven’t got the score to check.

 

So - pedal on a C to sound like JW (as if it were that simple)!

 

Mark

[Loert 2,515]

9 hours ago, michael_grig said:

 

 

- bar 66 (now with D as tonic): Does it make sense to label this as Em11 over D or just keep it as D5(add69) but now with an added sus4? 

- last quarter note of m.66: Dmaj7? I mean, we have the F# in three places there, so technically it's not D5 anymore, but they are all on weak beats only for a short time. For the overall context of the whole phrase would this count as Dmajor or D5?

 

If I were labelling these harmonies, I would just label bar 65-68 as "D Ionian". I think this, and the preceding section, are great examples of modal harmony. If we take the D Ionian part, I think we can divide it into 3 semantic parts. The first 2 parts are:

- The underlying "bell" chord, containing the tones D E A B (in order of increasing pitch), i.e. all but the top stave in your reduction

- The melody, containing the tones: A G F# E (in order of first appearance), in the top stave

 

Now, if JW had left it like this, the melody would sound bare and lonely. So to make it sound more fanfare-ish, he "harmonizes" the melody by adding two more notes below each note in the main melody line. This is the 3rd part. But what tones does he use? He simply chooses tones from the mode he is in. Which mode should he pick? First, let's spell out the tones we already have:

 

D E F# G A B

 

Assuming this is a standard Western mode, we only have one degree missing: C. So we can have either C or C#. The first case would be Mixolydian, the 2nd would be Ionian, and JW decides to go with Ionian, as signified by the C# in bar 66.

 

In a similar way, you can deduce that the preceding section is in B Mixolydian.

 

That's all there is to it really. I think it is a fruitless task to try to account for every single note as part of some "chord", and to label it as such. Think of it this way: if you gave bar 64 to a guitarist, would you expect them to play F#7(sus4)/B followed by B6/9(sus4) followed by B(sus4) at that tempo? I think it is easier to understand, and closer to the spirit of the music, to tell them: "We are in B Mixolydian, and play around that".

 

Here is one of few examples I can think of where thinking in terms of quick chord changes makes sense in JW's music (0:04-0:06):

 

 

[michael_grig 472]

That's very helpful, thanks a lot!

 

So is it right to say that Williams has not chords in mind when composing, but scales?

 

32 minutes ago, Loert said:

Now, if JW had left it like this, the melody would sound bare and lonely. So to make it sound more fanfare-ish, he "harmonizes" the melody by adding two more notes below each note in the main melody line. This is the 3rd part. But what tones does he use? He simply chooses tones from the mode he is in. Which mode should he pick? First, let's spell out the tones we already have:

I actually just played different notes from D ionian harmonizing the melody and it sounds very similar, so he really just chose random notes I guess? That's so cool XD.

 

 

[Loert 2,515]

2 hours ago, michael_grig said:

So is it right to say that Williams has not chords in mind when composing, but scales?

 

I think he has both in mind... I think JW is quite an instinctive composer, and he will basically do whatever is needed to write the music he wants.

[karelm 2,915]

3 hours ago, Loert said:

 

I think he has both in mind... I think JW is quite an instinctive composer, and he will basically do whatever is needed to write the music he wants.

I think this point is worth exploring further.  What does exceptional skill even look like?  @michael_grig, you are ultimately asking does a master think of chords or harmony when crafting a theme?  That's a question that only makes sense to a student.  This is also the same question JW might have asked 60 years ago.  So you can't ask that same question of a modern JW and have it make any real sense.  

[michael_grig 472]

3 hours ago, karelm said:

I think this point is worth exploring further.  What does exceptional skill even look like?  @michael_grig, you are ultimately asking does a master think of chords or harmony when crafting a theme?  That's a question that only makes sense to a student.  This is also the same question JW might have asked 60 years ago.  So you can't ask that same question of a modern JW and have it make any real sense.  

Are you suggesting that Williams doesn't really think about chords or scales at all, and that he has rather built all of it into his musical DNA over a long time and now the "modern Williams" only relies on this instinct?

[karelm 2,915]

19 hours ago, michael_grig said:

Are you suggesting that Williams doesn't really think about chords or scales at all, and that he has rather built all of it into his musical DNA over a long time and now the "modern Williams" only relies on this instinct?

Yes.  At 90+ years old, he's an encyclopedia of these chords and scales he's obsessed over for 80+ years.  I very much doubt scales and chords are something he has to put much thought into these days.  Here is an analogy.  Playing side by side with a professional level musician, they played a fiendishly exposed and difficult passage without breaking a sweat.  I asked, didn't playing that even make you nervous a little bit?  They said absolutely - but the items they were nervous about were no longer about hitting the right notes or rhythms.  They worked that all out over decades.  They were nervous about bringing something fresh and musical into something they had played thousands of times.  So, a beginner might be fretting over the obvious items like hitting the right note.  A mid level musician might focus just as much about tempo, phrasing, and dynamics but less worried they'll hit the right notes.  A professional level player might play the same passage now worried about doing the passage artistic justice and giving it the dynamic flare it needs though they've played it a thousand times.  At each level, the musician is stressing over the same passage and are working through issues but those aren't the same issues at all.  As a beginner you might think, it's crazy to imagine the pro doesn't have to worry about hitting the right notes.  They've moved past those obvious issues and are now focused on more nuanced challenges we might not even notice yet.  That is the analogy I'm making with JW.  He's at that point compositionally.  I seriously doubt he scratches his head wondering what that chord was or how to spell it because he's been doing that already for decades and now knows if I need something for a scene with a specific feel, C#min7+#9+#11 would work great right there.  Some would see this as it comes easy for him but it doesn't.  He just spent many, many years already working through the basic issues.  There are very few people in any capacity who will reach this level of accomplishment.  

[QuartalHarmony 543]

Ask yourself: when you’re breathing, do you think more about your nose, your mouth, your chest or your lungs?